RIP Men Content
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Again, that comment comes from not knowing the market and how selling works. DAZ has the largest reach and we sell far more here than in other stores, so a vendor that primarily sells here isn't going to open up store on another market place to try to sell a gofundme item. When I moved to daz from another storefront, I sold 3 times as many items than I did at the old store. When you get sales like that, there's no point to do all that just for smaller sales.
Boy, the examples are taking longer than I expected because every *bleeping* image search return on Google is on Pinterest now, which I neither subscribe to nor want. Urgh!
Laurie
Again, the comparison is SALES. That's the barrier to entry for someone to decide to get an item over something else. Freebies are just that, freebies. There's no cost except for the megabytes to download it. As a vendor, to be honest, your results are only going to be valuable to you because it's not real sales information. Your result will be "which freebie people like better" and that's it.
Keep in mind some people don't buy male items PERIOD, but they will download a male item that's free. And that's currently the buying pool now, there's a finite number of people that buy male items so to increase sales you HAVE to increase that buying population. That's why cost is so important, because when there is a choice between two items for sale, a customer (with their limited funds) will decide if they one, the other, or both. If they're all free, there's not much to decide unless they don't like the item at all to download it.
I got the commando sweater up on ShareCG. It turns out that I did actually make a false shirt collar sticking up so you can either show that or set it to zero opacity for sweater only. It's for G3M. This version lost the leather nametag, sorry if you were hoping for that.
https://sharecg.com/v/91665/view/21/DAZ-Studio/Commando-Sweater-G3M
Thanks. That looks great. =-)
Here's where it's not a fair test, fully.
There's a hundred reasons why it's not even test, at all. If we are going to put forth that the forum is 'too small' a sampling of the Daz customer base to warrant adding ANY CREDENCE to their opinions/desires/experiences --
(because, well, only on the Daz forum do concepts like Polls, Studies and Surveys not work)
-- then throwing up some free samples on your website and seeing who downloads them is WHAT?
---)) It's not always about comparing one thing to another. Because then, I should be able to argue against selling anything OTHER THAN women's skimpwear since SALES is your final measuring stick.
By that logic, we should remove Product Suggestions and NEVER ask for, suggest or mention interest in ANYTHING outisde of ladies-wear since it's obviuosly the only thing Daz sells in appreciable numbers.
(That and Stonemason sets. lol)
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On a more seious note, there's cross-buying purposes. Mayhaps, some of the other interests outside of character-driven portraits are here and buying stuff. My forum activity is tied to my central interest. If I'm a game developer, I might buy Daz assets, but I'm active on Gamer-design or 3D assets chucking forums and NOT the Daz forum. I don't care about iray or DIM or any of the things that befuddle the Daz forumites. I check the sales page when the email looks interesting....and other than that....
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The big question I'd want to know is - is making male clothes profitable?
Not asking what sells more, but if it sells enough to be worth doing.
If that sounds confusing a think to consider- there are lots of vendors who make things that do not sell massive amounts of units.
And yeah, if your rent is paid by Daz Store sales maybe you don't decide to make Spoons as your staple. Silver Spoons, gold spoons, fancy spoons, toon spoons, medieval spoons, futuristic spoons, wooden spoons!
And then branch out. Spoon poses. A spoon stand...a LADLE! ...
Well I downloaded all three although the sundress is not really what we called sundresses but it just the style 5 year old girls wore in kindergarten in those days. It's work good with Girl 8 & Co. I'll probably get the most use out of the bobby uniform though.
The vendors have answered this in other threads but:
1) The big question I'd want to know is - is making male clothes profitable?... For most vendors, probably not.... Sickleyield has show her data for her own products and the female product generally sells at a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio so, in general, a vendor who makes a male product generally makes out of love. There are exceptions such as the vendors who make space suits and monsters but for seems to hold true for conventional clothes
2) Not asking what sells more, but if it sells enough to be worth doing. Maybe.... a cautionary tale would be Stonemason's clothing line which was beautifully designed, reasonably priced, and probably on a thousand wish lists but most people didn't buy it. Male-3dia once created a wonderful biracial chacter that used a new texture resource made just for him and I think I was one of the few people who bought it.
3) By that logic, we should remove Product Suggestions and NEVER ask for, suggest or mention interest in ANYTHING outisde of ladies-wear since it's obviuosly the only thing Daz sells in appreciable numbers. suggestions are nice when you keep in mind that they are suggestions and not bespoke orders.
and 4) The "spoons thing" is complicated because every time you make a spoon, all the people who asked for spoons tell you that it is either a horrible spoon and why don't you make a spoon that suites their specifc needs or tell you that it is a great spoon but they will buy it only when there is a matching fork. So you make the matching fork, and they only buy the matching fork and tell you that spoon doesn't suit their needs. Next you run into the bulk of the people who don't buy spoons and only use forks; they are will ing to buy forks at more profitable price points in three times the volume and are less critical about forks... You look at your unsold inventory of unsold spoons and your fellow vendor who sold loads of simple forks and din't have to field loads of complaints... and you get that complaint about why you don't make more spoons....
What I find amusing is when we have people here in the forum ask for a male version of some item, but the PA doesn't follow through.
I'm specifically thinking of some jacket or something. 90% of the hard work has been done already by designing the jacket, etc, so updating it to a male shape shouldn't be that hard.
Sure, we have autofits, etc. on our end, but sometimes those don't work out so well. Particularly for shoes and gloves.
My point is that this is low hanging fruit for PAs, requiring a significantly lower time investment to bring a male variant to market, but oftentimes they just don't bother. It's one thing when you are designing a new product, but when you have people asking for a male version of something you've made already, well that's 'market feedback' go to off of, and perhaps a worthwhile investment of your time.
or tell you that it is a great spoon but they will buy it only when there is a matching fork. So you make the matching fork, and they only buy the matching fork and tell you that spoon doesn't suit their needs.
I cannot believe you replied with such a clever counter- point. Well done.
These two points are hard to fit together...
female product generally sells at a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio so, in general, a vendor who makes a male product generally
AND
requiring a significantly lower time investment to bring a male variant to market...
We're at the point of not even discussing MALE clothing, but instead a Male version and then we dropped back to 'not a male version' but a female version WITHOUT CIRCLES around the breasts and cleavage.
No? if a vendor sell a thousand female leather action suits ----- what 250 sales of the SAME SUIT with a different shirt is too much work?
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This is beginning to sound like all the other things people have said are impossible until a vendor made them possible.
No offense to the dozens of Daz experts who tirelessly explained why certian things made no sense- until someone else made it make sense and released it to great money-making results.
There's a ton of products we've asked for - that are now staples.
HI, I dont sell my clothing items
They are for my use in my animated films only.
For many of the vendors, male clothes (and characters) are either labor of loves or what is called loss leaders.... there are vendors who have made the equivalent female product such as the Tactical Assault Outfit by Herschel Hoffmeyer; the vendors who have spoke about it have often said that it isn't often easy since male and female chest anatomy are rather different. Of the vendors who make loads of clothing, their specialty tends to be female clothes and customers often complain in the forum about how unconvincing their male clothes are: pants too tight, buttons on the wrong side, too trendy etc... It's not an easy business to be in and the vendors of male clothes are held in particularly scrutiny. Once, you get past this hurtle, the next isue is price point. Should it be a loss leader (and why) or do you charge for the extra time and the limited number of sales that you will make. Next, how do you convince the store that you will generate enough sales to make it worth their time to deal with the returns, support etc... Even the people who are great at this stuff like Luthbella, Sickleyield, and OutofTouch can rarely afford the time and money to maintain the stream of highly detailed clothes. If someone like StoneMason with his streetwear line (https://www.daz3d.com/streetwear-jeans-for-genesis) walked away from the effort of making clothes, it is hard to see how a new vendor would try unless they did it out of more love and less profit. I am the proud owner of every male garment that Aeon soul made but I understand completely when they said on their DeviantArt page why they couldn't make the economics work. There will continue to be the occasional male garment but we will never reach any large volume substained after the launch of a new Daz3d character until people learn that you sometimes buy stuff as an investment.
What about my idea of Daz using their in-house talent to make male clothes?
Other than that, we seem to have few options.....
a) make your own clothes for males (can't wait to see how the ladies all have neato gear and my males are all in tubes)
b) Buy something, somewhere else that doesn't really exist (yet) cause well, you'd need matching clothes....and those stores are all doing the same number-crunching dance...
c) Suck it up have the males looking like the x-men in spandex.....
d) Pressure Wolf to become a Daz Vendor....
e) some option I didn't think of yet.
I think Daz3d commissions a whole lot less than people in the forum think. You will often see a product such as a mermaid, an underwater grotto, textures because the vendors band together and submit the project to the store rather than the store saying "make this"... I think f) do as the vendors suggest and support the products that are made so tha stores and the vendors know that the marketplace wants more male content as opposed to people in the forum really want more male clothes but the bulk of the users not buying the male content. I willl confess after watching way too much Westworld, I finally bought Luthbella' Desperado... as an exeample of my own purchasing procrastination. We tend to send mixed signals here by saying we want more content and then turning our noses up when content is offered...
You seem to think that the hard work is modelling the base item, and to adapt a female item to a male figure you'll just have to adjust the mesh a bit and you're done. It's actually not that simple...
To adapt a product made from one figure so that it works for another you'd have to do at least the following:
and I'm sure I'm forgetting some other things.
Would you save time compared to making an item completely from scratch? Probably, since you have a mesh to start from and with a bit of luck you won't have to spend time on textures at all.
But you certainly won't save 90% of the time it would take to create a completely new item.
It might be helpful to be encouraging. It is one thing to feel too busy to make your own, it is quite another to discourage people who are considering making some and offering it.
As Leana points out, the mesh and textures are the easy part. For distribution, clothing has a variety of full body morphs to support shapes, morphs for actions (zippers up down for example), weightmap adjustments for each joint, and joint control morphs when adjusting weight maps is insufficient.
For personal use, some of that can be cut down. For example, if you know you will be relying on DForce, then certain kinds of morphs are superfluous.
I oppose buying stuff you don’t want. But some of the criticisms of the quality of female/male clothing is both undeserved and discouraging. SY sometimes makes a female and male version, sometimes not. High quality either way. Her lower sales for male stuff is not because the quality sucks, because it doesn’t.
Some male clothes are bought from vendors by DAZ3D already.. but note it's the female items that make up for the loss of sales when male items are released.. that's why there are so much more female items than male.. that money has to be recouped because male items won't sell as many. PAs themselves don't have the luxury to put out a loss leader AND a regular product that pays for it.
Don't forget swapping the buttons and so on to the other side, and reversing the overlapping .edges (and if the mesh was welded, that would mean redoing all morphs if the modeller didn't adjust them, or for any morphs added after the mesh was adapted).
I am only going to d/l the female version just because of the whining, LOL
Thanks for the freebies though!
Good point, my list assumes that the same design can work for both figures and you just need to adjust the shape.
IgnisSerpentus :
Whatever you do, I'm sure even male skimpwear would look splendid. Consider me interested :-)
grinch2901
Downloaded already, thanks! (Male stuff only)
LOL!! while you certainly flatter me good sir.
The truth is, that my becoming a Daz clothing vendor would not solve anyones problems of needing male content in general.
I only create for the generations I use G1, G2 G3
I have the base G8 F/M installed in DS 4.8 and they load with a version warning that I simply ignore.
No matter, because I will never use the G8 figures and I will never install DS 4.10.
Nothing wrong with G8 M/F or DS 4.10 mind you,
in fact some of the new stylized characters for G8 are pretty awesome looking!!. ( Ollie ,Dolb etc) but in the end, they do not offer any unique creature variety that did not exist in previous generations
Now people can bang on about how much"better" the new figures bend and"better" bone base facial experession etc etc.
However from the focused perspective of a CG animated filmaker,they dont really offer me anything
( male,female adult, child sci-fi aliens) that I can not create for my projects, with the previous generations and my hundreds of morphs I have installed for them along with GENX2, Zev0's ,"growing up"& skinbuilder and I have face gen artist pro for even more unique variety.
Now before anyone mentions the great opiate of the one framers
"HD morphs", They are not relevant to me as I render in other programs and use sculptress and the free Xnormal program to generate my own normal mapps
( if needed) for any "HD" details I need.
I frankly consider the Daz Genesis models and Daz studio itself
,to a certain extent, have reached an evolutionary Dead end ,at least from my from my perspective.
For what it's worth of the three freebies the constable uniform was the hardest. All the rigid follow nodes, the hat had to be modelled from scratch from photo references, etc. Again, it's a bit wonky in the belt buckle and I don't do JCMs because I don't really know how so it's amateur quality, still took a while to get "good enough". The sweater was less involved though getting the patches to line up properly and that false shirt sticking out to fold over properly was a pain. So it was second hardest. The dress was nothing, like a 10 minute job.
As of this moment the dress has been downloaded 79 times. The constable set 60 times. The sweater 52, but that was put up a couple of hours later. What's most interesting to me is that the dress and constable set went up at literally the same moment and the dress 148 views while they constable set has 130. So even though it's free fewer people are even looking. That could be because it's historical and a bit niche though. And it could be because it's for G3M instead of G8M, some may not even consider prior gen stuff. Imperfect experiment, maybe it means nothing. Enjoy the free stuff anyway though!
Oh come on, purge every male item from the store & watch the sales of the female items plummet too. In real clothing stores, women buy more clothing for women and they buy clothing for men too, just not as much of it.
Loss leader? Not. Try living and bread & water alone and see how healthy you remain in due time.
To pretend that selling a male clothing item is some how a lost opportunity because it's wasn't another female bikini is not really plausible when your business model consists soully to selling to people that are rendering women in bikinis as pinups.
I have no idea if this is affecting your figures, but eblank99 has posted a texture set for the sundress at sharecg, which might help "drive traffic" to the sundress.
Just downloaded the Sweater and the Constable set - we've needed one of those for Stonemason's London set for the longest time. I rarely buy or use female clothes, sometimes female hair if I think I can use it on the guys, and I usually buy male stuff on the first day.
Yes, I made that set because ... a challenge I guess. i saw someone making an amazing US Marines uniform and thought "uniform? hmmm, why not try that?" And not wanting to replicate someone else's work (with lower quality) i looked at old school police uniforms and none existed that I could see. And there were cool sets that it would make sense on, even though I didn't have any. I was sort of thinking a Dr. Who scenario so UK but it ended up becoming more Jack the Ripper era. But it was definitely a hole in the content catalog out there. Now it seems to me that the jacket can be repurposed for other things. Put some emlems on the collar, maybe borrow some epualettes from another set and change the belt buckle out and civil war, for example. The hat could be used for british military stuff too, I suppose. Like stuff from that old "Zulu" movie era.
I don't really have a lot of other stuff form the men I can share. I do have a USN jacket that's not that good, one of the first things I did. I am not comfortable sharing that because the quality isn't even as "meh" as the constable set. And it's a specific rank because that's what I needed so it's very niche anyway.
" If someone like StoneMason with his streetwear line (https://www.daz3d.com/streetwear-jeans-for-genesis) walked away from the effort of making clothes, it is hard to see how a new vendor would try unless they did it out of more love and less profit. "
I wouldn't say I walked away from it,I just never got around to doing more of it..environments have always been my prime focus and doing that clothing line was really just for fun,I didn't give any thought to whether it would sell well or even if doing male over female content was a good idea..I'm sure one day I'll get back into the streetwear brand