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from https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/2962401/#Comment_2962401
Quadros cards are aimed at professional situations such as CAD and medical imaging and industrial 3D imaging (FARO arms and other laser scanners and the like) where custom drivers that are situation-specific are required so the GPU uses most of its available resources for the specific task. Yes, they play Minecraft at 1440 FPS. They are not designed for games. Games require a faster clock than Quadros have, because gaming cards have a lot of screen redraws and texture swapping and bump mapping and all that fancy crap games have these days. However, rendering requires a steady clock more than a fast clock. OC your GTX to the max and you will not get that Iray scene to render any faster than had you left it at default.
There are no utilities to boost the clock of a Quadro so you can play the latest Call of Doodie or Mass Effect. There are utilities for gaming cards to push the weaker ones to their limit, or to throttle back on them for greater stability in Iray.
And that is the main issue you will have with a used GPU; some idiot trying to force a 760 to perform like a 1080ti for marathon gaming sessions using only the factory fan set to default "because the noise hurr hurr durr". This is where being an intelligent Ebayer is supposed to win out over being a poor and impatient Ebayer. Yes, you can score 5 crap cards for the cost of one good one. You get what you pay for.
Also, bad cards are easy to spot: too new, price too low to be true, zero feedbackers, etc. No one buys a 1080ti and doesn't like it. No one sells a 1080ti for cheap unless they broke it.
As well, look for listings with a GPU-Z or similar screenshot. Look around to make sure they're not just using someone else's listing images. If you have a smart phone, you have a camera. Even if you have a stupid phone, you have a camera. Avoid listings that only use manufacturer's images, and watch for watermarks that don't belong to the seller.
And of course grammer matters, especially on Ebay. Bad spellers = bad sellers more often than not.
I hope you don't mind a little OT, but is the shader you mention the one "Wowie" is working on? (A screenshot of its UI and looks like something from mission control in NASA! Could get lost in there for weeks!) I didn't know it was out yet, but have not visited that topic in a while. : )
@ Kyoto Daywalker and Kevin
Yes, he probably stays in business by knowing what gamers want (or all of his customers) and selling 'trade-ins' on his e-Bay store probably another way. If he's a business and having trouble with inventory, that seems pretty crazy. Only 3 "Mom & Pop" stores left in a city of 1 million + : (
To topic and just so I understand before I do anything crazy.
Lower GPU core numbers equal > processing time, but my system will be more stable?
Example: 3DL or Superfly render -- CPU will go to 4.25GHz and stay there at 99% | overheats or some 'event' causes Windows 10 to kill process at almost exactly 2:37 mark.
Lower % via power management and even IRay renders are much more quiet and fan is more quiet. I like quiet! Time is money and system longevity is money... I can be patient. : )
The 16G is only for IRay. 3DL and apps like Carrara and Bryce, (or rendering in Poser's FF and SF) are still cpu and ram. Correct?
Thanks for replies. I know you were probably in the middle of a discussion. I appreciate it!
--Bruce
The color of the ram heat sink might denote that one ram is a faster ram than the other or had more bandwidth (mhz), however I'm not sure why that would make a difference in the heatsink, so I'm just basically spitballing ;).
Laurie
Bruce, last I heard wowie is still working on it. I had very good luck with his first Photo Studio light and shader kit. Best renders I'd ever made in 3DL.
Most of the Mom & Pop computer stores here around Detroit (total population in the area is bigger considering the 3 main counties and the Television DMA is 9 counties) went away years ago with Newegg and Amazon becoming the rage. Best Buy has been doing better. Microcenter stays busy because they are so large and super serve the build your own crowd. It took the business CompUSA had in several locations plus more. They sell those fancy RAM modules (ones that light up, too), they have the lights everywhere in your case, etc. They equal or sometimes beat Newegg and Amazon. The smaller stores are pretty depressing now, with not much stuff. They stay open with some long standing business clients and repairs they do.
The Quadro he is offering you has many more CUDA cores than the 1070. The 1070 has 1920 and the 1070ti has 2432. The Quadro P5000 has 2560 CUDA cores. So the Quadro has more processing power. It also has much more memory, double. It's Pascal so it's good for the forseeable future. It won't be deprecated anytime soon. Maybe someone can jump in about any possible issues with a Quadro card, but I don't know any because I can't afford one. The specs look good.
Carrara, Bryce are still CPU, as is DAZ Studio 3DL. Poser is CPU except for SuperFly which can use GPU (isn't it Blender's Cycles?).
Thanks. It's scary, but just celebrated a birthday so I have a little spending money. Not $800 of course. Some will have to come out of savings, but it's not making much at .02% I think. (I'm good at rationalizing)
@ Dr. Newcenstein
Sage advice for the internet! Local small business wouldn't be selling anything outright defective-- he survives by repuation & word of mouth-- but no telling how card has been used or abused.
If someone has been using it really hard 24/7 for this new crypto-ming stuff impossible to tell? 30 day warranty and will have to keep an eye on any weird stuff like display errors etc. I use HWiNFO64 & CPU-Z to keep an eye on things. Maybe get GPU-Z to look at it also?
Other than display errors, what would I look for if card on its last legs?
@ Allen Art
The RAM was made by Crucial and had red heat sinks. That's interesting idea about speed and color codes. For example, HHDs are WD black-- maybe a little faster read/write than blue? Don't remember.
Think they're the same at least according to taskman & CPU-Z. With other brands who knows? Sounds like something marketing would do though. "Our premium Graphixx DDR4 3000 Ultra-Marine series" (That has the same specs as other DDR4 3000 but it's 'premium' right?
Anyway, thank you all again for the replies. Probably going to do something really crazy if it's still even there.
Is DAZ and 3D addicting? ; )
--Bruce
If you are still using Iray quite happily then it will probably be in a soon to be released version of Iray that they drop Fermi support..
From this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nvidia_graphics_processing_units
The 400 series and 500 series cards are Fermi based that will "soon ™" lose support in an upcoming version of Iray with the information that Richard linked, so I was not far off the mark..
SuperFly is indeed Cycles, but IIRC it's missing a few bells and whistles over Blender's version.
Fewer GPU/CUDA cores means less rendering power means slower renders. Stability isn't an issue with GTX cards these days (980 and up) but the 780ti and Titan Z did better when you dropped their clock speeds via MSI Afterburner or EVGA Precision X. However, those can only reduce it so far, since these are, after all, meant to run "pedal to the metal".
Older Quadros are underpowered and overpriced compared to GTX cards with the same amount of VRAM and.or CUDA cores. My K4000 sounded nice at the time, and was certanly a step up from the fx1800 that came in my HP Z600, but I should've shopped around and found a better price first, rather than after. 768 cores is nothing.
The K40 and K80 are the current "beasts" on the used market, but at nearly $2500 (selling prices in Sold Listings on Ebay) for a K80, those might be bargains right now. Then again, while the 24GB of VRAM means larger scenes, the 5000 cores means it'll take as long as a single Titan Z, which is a 3rd of the cost. But that also assumes you're only putting a 6GB scene on it. Expect render times to increase as your scene size increases.
If you bought 3 Titan Zs with that same $2500, you'd have 17,280 cores devoted to the task, but you'd still be limited to 6GB scenes (because it's a dual 6GB card and not a true 12GB card as advertised).
It looks like 1070s have sold for roughly $500 each, and P5000s are selling for $2000 each, so basically the "your card + $800" means he's selling the P5000 for $1300. The Titan Xp sells for that direct from Nvidia, and has 1280 more cores, but 4GB less VRAM. You have to ask yourself "Do I ever create scenes larger than 12GB?" before deciding. However, you also have to extremely lucky in this current "crisis" to actually get one from Nvidia.
Individual RAM makers may have color codes for different perfomance levels, but I'm pretty sure there's no standard they all stick to. The only way to know what you have (or are about to buy) is put the part number in to a search engine and it'll tell you the speed. Their premium gaming parts have different features, some handle overvoltage better, some have slightly lower latency, but if you're not overclocking, you don't need to worry about it. If you're just running factory settings, any DDR4 3000 module should work (if that's what your motherboard takes).
Also check the specs of your motherboard. Buying memory faster than what your motherboard supports won't help you at all. It won't hurt, but it won't help.
And no, Daz and 3d aren't addicting. I can stop any time I want to. I just don't want to right now.
If the 600 series was dropped, that would also include the 700 series as that series used the same architecture, Kepler. That would be quite limiting if true, because you'd only be able to use strictly 900 or 1000 series GPUs for Iray from the GTX line. If Nvidia dropped support for Kepler, there would be some serious riots, as the 780ti and the original Titan fall under these. So highly doubt Kepler would be dropped anytime soon. Fermi does not even support PCIe 3.0, and none of the cards have more than 3 GB of VRAM, while most have only 1.5 or less. Plus Fermi is very rarely used now. Meanwhile Kepler is still found in a lot of mainstream machines. Its also worth noting that when DirectX 12 came along, even Fermi was updated for it, which is telling.
Also, as I stated, my suggestion is a stop gap. Meaning that one day the user can upgrade whenever the market finally comes back down. Its not intended to be the forever answer, and really no GPU is "forever". I'm sure one day Iray will drop Kepler one day, but not soon. We are talking about cards that can range from >$100 to about $200. Which is far less than what comparable new cards are commanding. Not to mention the new cards are hard to find in stock.
Kyoto, the suggestion is also for people looking at 1050 and 1050ti range cards. In other words, people already looking at 4 GB at most anyway. The 670 and 680 are good matches for those, and can be found cheaper in most cases. A 670 4GB is better than a 1050 2 GB, period. A 680 4GB is pretty equal to a 1050ti 4GB. A 780ti with 3 GB can bought for less than a 1060 3 GB, and performs about the same. So...if somebody is in the market for a 1050, 1050ti, or 1060, take a look at these equivalents and decide.
This all changes if prices change, obviously.
I'd really love to see a hardware survey of Daz Iray users. Just the GPU. I think the results would be very interesting.
Going by the link that Richard supplied so far it is only the Fermi based cards that are losing support, and from the link I found which is above the 400 series and 500 series cards are the ones that will soon lose support for Iray.. How long the Kepler series cards retain support is entirely up to Nvidia, which I am guessing would likely be at least another one or two generations or so away..
Keep in mind that core counts are not equal across generations. Take a look at the specs on the cards I listed. The 680 is a like a 1050ti in practice. But the 680 has 1536 cores, while the 1050ti has only 768. The 680 has exactly twice the cores, yet can only perform about the same. The 1050ti is clocked about 30% faster, so it is clearly more than just clockspeed making the difference. The CUDA cores themselves are more efficient at what they do in newer cards.
The 680 has a compute ability of 3.0 for CUDA tasks, while the 1050ti has a 6.1, which all 1000 series cards have. So with a higher compute ability and higher clockspeed, the 1050ti is able to match what the 680 did in 2012.
The compute abilities of Nvida cards were linked before, but it boils down to the architecture.
CUDA Compute Capability by class, as each new chip design updates CUDA:
Fermi 2.0-2.1
Kepler 3.0-3.5 (OG Titan is 3.5)
Maxwell 5.0-5.2 (750 and 750ti are only ones at 5)
Pascal 6.1
This isn't exactly a scale, but should add some perspective to the performances of the cards across generations.
Certainly interesting to know, thanks. That should also apply to Quadro/Tesla cards, correct? Older Teslas are still asking a high price for their age and limitations. Part of their high initial MSRP is related to the level of customer care that comes with them. However, once they hit the used market, that level of customer care falls off, and their dollar value should follow accordingly.
The reason he wants the box for the graphics card is because he is going to sell it as a new card. For the RAM color, some manufacturers have different colors codes for different performance levels of RAM. Generally white is the lowest performance for a particular manufacturer. I would think twice about shopping there anymore. It sounds like he may sell used products as new and is giving you bad advice on the RAM so he can make a larger profit. He wants you to downgrade your RAM so he can sell the better quality RAM to someone else.
For the new RAM, ideally you want all the sticks to be the same brand, size, and model(color). Before swapping video cards, I would check how much the card he wants to sell you costs as well as what the card you currently have is worth new.
edit: If you use your computer to play video games, you probably don't want to swap cards.
edit 2: I compared prices on the two graphics cards. I don't recommend the deal. The PNY P5000 sells new for around $1800, your card sells new for around $800. Unless the PNY card is used or he really likes you, he would be losing at least $200 on the deal. It is too good to be true.
$800 for a new 1070 is robbery when a new 1080ti is $700 direct from Nvidia.
So, I'm looking at this with bemusement and I'm also analyzing this from a different perspective.
Yes, I want to buy a couple of 1080 TI cards, but what the hell...might as well watch and learn.
Will there be a crash in cryptomining? Maybe, maybe not. I think chances are better than 50%. But it's not yet frothy enough. Not nearly. Remember when the housing boom happened? Taxicab drivers, hairdressers, and Starbucks baristas were all flipping houses. One time, the guy who replaced my garbage disposal told me he was flipping houses! No THAT's froth. Crypto isn't anywhere near frothy yet. When the guy who changes my oil tells me he's building a mining rig, then we'll have something to talk about. When the girl who drives the Amazon deliveries in my neighborhood says she's mining, then I'll say we're getting close to a bubble collapse. Not before.
I find it fascinating that a lot of the global warming crowd is doing cryptomining even though the power requirements are enormous. A divergence there, to be sure. I don't know how somebody reconciles two completely oposing beliefs like that.
I see some electric companies going after heavy-users with super-surcharges. Sure, why not? I think they should be able to increase the cost to heavy users, particularly if those users require the building of more turbines, more reactors, etcetera.
Could we track people who are gamers? Sure, sell the cards on Steam to people at a level 8. I wouldn't qualify (I think I'm a 4), but those 8s or higher would be your gamers! Hehe, but then watch people wail that gaming provides no good economic function, just as they do now with blockchainers.
Will this all end? Yeah, probably. In the meantime, I think I'll probably eventually break down and buy a 1080 TI for anything under $1,000.
Or maybe I'll just buy that Stratocaster I've been lusting after. I'd still end up saving $200-$400 and I'd get a really great guitar out of the deal!
...misnomer, actually a 750 Ti.
..yeah, but try to get one there.after more than a month I got notice that 1070 Ti's were in stock and by the time I got to the site it was back to "Notify Me". Seems that I'd have better luck winning the Megabucks Lotto than scoring a 1070 at basic cost unless maybe I knew how to programme a bot.
The the 750 and 750ti are Maxwell-based GPUs, thank goodness. Based on the GM 107, which is first-generation Maxwell.
Ack! Yesterday I checked Newegg, and one of the 1070s was $959, the same as a good MSI 1080ti (which they had a few of, briefly).
Check the prices on 1080s and 1080ti on Newegg! This morning 1080ti for <$900, 1080 for ~$700, in stock. Best prices I have seen in months. Lower than many of the 1070s!
The modified GPUs cost more than the base, such as those with OC and/or extra fans from MSI, EVGA, et al, but still you're looking at the base model price comparison. I just can't see spending the same money for less card just because it has fans or has had a few OC tweaks to make it run like the higher-model you could have bought in the first place.
That's actually what they cost here when they were relased last year, but then, software/hardware prices are generally higher in EU. I paid about $600 for my 1070 almost a year ago (includes 25% tax though), and that was one of the cheaper versions.
I as part of my new computer I forked out about $1100 AUD for a MSI GTX 1070ti, if I wanted a 1080ti that would of been $400 AUD more.. All due to cryptonmining and what not plus AUD to USD exchange rate, I was not going to hang around waiting and with how things are going in the computer hardware market I consider myself lucky..
I was checking my Amazon wishlist to see if some price dropped (The 1070ti I was going to buy went form 400$ to 750$ in 7 days). My blood froze once again...
Then in a corner I noticed a thing... Something that made me think "I can play their same game!" Everyone here has one or two "old" GPUs in their cabinets, put away because the new ones "are better", saved for emergencies or future rigs for a present to a nephew... Why not ADD THEM to our PCs like they do, adding CUDAs to our system?
https://www.amazon.com/SEDNA-express-slots-Riser-Multiplier/dp/B075DF9L5V/ref=sr_1_78?ie=UTF8&qid=1520875751&sr=8-78&keywords=PCI-E+Express+riser
Someone knows if this "download more RAM" thought I got could work? I mean, they use the GPUs at 100% to mine more, so I think we can do the same...
I have two old cards, nothing exceptional, but the CUDA total of the three of them will surpass the number of the 1080ti!
Yep, someone covered it earlier https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/3396241/#Comment_3396241 . Renders take a little longer to start (copying textures across a PCI-E x1 bus instead of x8 or x16) but after that it rendered normally. I'm going to try it once I get a new card. The only problem is finding someplace to mount your cards.
Nvidia is going through with mining focused cards. They did some before, but they weren't anything special. However, this one is kind of interesting. Look at the rumored specs.
– GPU: P102-100
– CUDA Cores: 3200
– Base Clock: 1582 MHz
– Memory Clock: 11 Gbps
– Physical Memory Size: 5 GB
– Memory Type: GDDR5X
– Memory Interface Width: 320-bit
– Memory Bandwidth: 400 GB/s
– Bus Support: PCIe Gen1 x4
– Card Size: 21.5 cm length, 12.5 cm height, dual slot
– Max TDP: 250 Watt
– Power Connectors: 2x 8-pin PCI-E
A Pascal card with 3200 cores is a beast by any standard. Though it only has 5GB, this is a mining card, it will not have any video output. Which raises a question...does a GPU with no video out get effected by Windows 10 VRAM usage? Or will all 5 GB be usable?
There is no price on this card, but given that is a cut down 1080ti with no video out, it shouldn't be too high.
I wonder how much the GTX 2080 is going to end up going for. My hope was always that the cost of mining would keep going up until it's no longer as profitable so that the demand dries up, but this should give them a nice boost for a few more months.
As long as the card doesn't show to Windows as having possible display connections it shouldn't suffer the memory loss, my understanding is that Windows 10 reservs enough memory for each possible connection - which is why high-end cards tend to lose more.
This also allows them to cater to BOTH markets and hopefully getting the gaming cards to the people for which they were designed. I'm hoping that the dedicated mining cards catch on with the mining crowd...it would be the best outcome for all parties.
Laurie