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The Realism Challenge - Biased VS Unbiased Showdown

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  • AlexLOAlexLO Posts: 193
    edited December 1969

    I'll dip my toe into the water...is it warm enough? hehehe You decide which engine produced this image.

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  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 2,691
    edited December 1969

    Alex L said:
    I'll dip my toe into the water...is it warm enough? hehehe You decide which engine produced this image.

    Easy one .... Reality/Lux ??
  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 4,511
    edited December 1969

    Hellboy said:
    It depends on different thngs. I have 20 minutes renders.
    Actually that one I just posted was ready in 20 minutes. I did left it a couple of hours because I was busy with something else anyway, but at 20 minutes looked already acceptable to me, it didn't changed that much with the extra hours.

    Other stuff took a pair of days, but it had water and fancy stuff. I don't mind long render times myself. I'm usually not in a hurry to get images done, so I take my time. :)

    Yeah those are some nice renders. And your postwork is good with the fingers and how they interact with the hip. I've noticed that in your renders in the past.

    Sometimes I need to have a dozen or so renders in a day, so there are definitely times when speed is paramount otherwise it all results in a fail. Right now I am working on something that I can let render overnight so it's not biggie, but I still can't let it cook for a few days.

    It certainly depends on a lot of things, and that's why it's good to have options.

  • AlexLOAlexLO Posts: 193
    edited December 1969

    dustrider said:
    Alex L said:
    I'll dip my toe into the water...is it warm enough? hehehe You decide which engine produced this image.

    Easy one .... Reality/Lux ??

    Interesting eyes there dustrider ;-) One more render quiz as we play "What's my Engine?" (starts Jeopardy Theme music)

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  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 6,879
    edited December 1969

    Alex L said:
    dustrider said:
    Alex L said:
    I'll dip my toe into the water...is it warm enough? hehehe You decide which engine produced this image.

    Easy one .... Reality/Lux ??

    Interesting eyes there dustrider ;-) One more render quiz as we play "What's my Engine?" (starts Jeopardy Theme music)


    DAZ Studio with Uber lights/Environment.

    At least thats what I gather from the oddity in the shadow below his right foot.

  • FirstBastionFirstBastion Posts: 7,317
    edited December 1969

    I'd also say DAZ Studio with UE2

  • AlexLOAlexLO Posts: 193
    edited December 1969

    Mattymanx said:
    Alex L said:
    dustrider said:
    Alex L said:
    I'll dip my toe into the water...is it warm enough? hehehe You decide which engine produced this image.

    Easy one .... Reality/Lux ??

    Interesting eyes there dustrider ;-) One more render quiz as we play "What's my Engine?" (starts Jeopardy Theme music)


    DAZ Studio with Uber lights/Environment.

    At least that's what I gather from the oddity in the shadow below his right foot.

    DING DING Rupaul's Render Race has a Winah!!! LOL

    What's really funny is that both of the last two renders are D|S 4.5 with Uberlight, not Luxrender or Octane. The pictures below are Image #1 above in Reality / Lux with enough light power to render quickly (rendered for less than an hour just to get it into the 2K+ pixel samples range, it was clean enough after 170.2 s/px). The point with this exercise is that you can achieve the look & feel you want if you understand the tools at your disposal, and what they need from your subject in order to give the desired results. You can create incredibly accurate photo realism with a canvas & paint, or a graphite pencil if you understand texture, light & shadow.

    Marcus_Realitysinglecurve_01_021913.jpg
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    Marcus_RealityIBLwhiteroom_021913.jpg
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  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 2,691
    edited February 2013

    Alex L said:
    dustrider said:
    Alex L said:
    I'll dip my toe into the water...is it warm enough? hehehe You decide which engine produced this image.

    Easy one .... Reality/Lux ??

    Interesting eyes there dustrider ;-) One more render quiz as we play "What's my Engine?" (starts Jeopardy Theme music)

    Got to admit I cheated - I saw your post over at rendo - very nice render(s)! Opps - Looks like I outsmarted myself :red:

    Post edited by DustRider on
  • araneldonaraneldon Posts: 712
    edited February 2013

    Alex L: While you do have a point, your examples are a bit contrived. It's much more difficult to achieve good lighting using a biased renderer when your image shows more than a single character on an empty stage.

    Try fooling us with a fully decorated interior, and don't put everything but a figure in front out of focus either ;)

    Post edited by araneldon on
  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 2,691
    edited February 2013

    I don't do what I would call realistic images, but I do try to make the lighting create a good feeling of 3D. IMHO all of the render engines mentioned so far are capable of creating jaw dropping beautiful and realistic images. It's up to the person using the software to get the results they want. I also think doing a true comparison between two render engines is very difficult because materials/shaders and lighting don't typically translate perfectly (or even well) from one to another.

    Below is a comparison of the result I got trying to do my own comparison (image(s) with blue background). The image on the left was done in DS, The image on the right was done with Reality/Lux. I think it's a perfect example of how user skill is critical to results. I'm learning DS (sloooowly), but have even fewer skills with Reality/Lux. I attribute the great differences between the images to my lack of skills (and a spec map that is too strong), not to the capabilities of the software. I like the DS render better than the Lux render, and just don't have enough experience with Lux as I do with DS.

    The third image was my first attempt with Lux (image with staircase). I think it's a good example of what an unbiased renderer is capable of doing. All of the light in the image, except for the light coming through the dome (skylight) is indirect/bounced light. It was rendered with 1 sun light that wasn't directly hitting anything in the scene.

    The second image was done in Carrara (image with grrrl in crystal) - it's just a simple example of caustics and ray tracing in Carrara with a simple 3 light setup.

    Below for some other examples of renders done in DS, Carrara, and Poser.

    This is what I think is my best image so far in DS
    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2305660

    Simple 3 light setup in Carrara (nudity)
    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2296256

    Light dome with 1 spot in Carrara for an outdoor scene in Carrara (nudity)
    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2260952

    Scene with GI and a single spot in Carrara:
    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2149608

    Very simple UE scene in DS3
    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1994089

    Light Dome in DS3
    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2000587

    One of Howie Farkes beautiful lanscapes in Carrara (GI and Lightdome)
    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1832144&user_id=180561

    IDL in PoserPro 2010
    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2036580

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    reality_scene_eveningstar_G4-s2.jpg
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    Bridget_Sunkissed_DAZ-Lux.jpg
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    Post edited by DustRider on
  • Dave SavageDave Savage Posts: 2,433
    edited February 2013

    Pic 1;
    Lit by sunlight with soft shadow, slight bit of light supplied by HDR in IBL.
    Rendered with True Ambience switched on (set to 256 RPP)

    Render time; just over 3 hours.

    Pic 2;
    Set up exactly the same as above only render settings at 64 RPP and no depth of field

    Render time; 40 minutes.

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    BlueBeetleALT.jpg
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    Post edited by Dave Savage on
  • RarethRareth Posts: 1,458
    edited December 1969

    TheSavage64 said:
    Pic 1;
    Lit by sunlight with soft shadow, slight bit of light supplied by HDR in IBL.
    Rendered with True Ambience switched on (set to 256 RPP)

    Render time; just over 3 hours.

    Pic 2;
    Set up exactly the same as above only render settings at 64 RPP and no depth of field

    Render time; 40 minutes.

    Nice..

    you need a white one though.. with red and blue racing stripe, and the number 53 on the side..

  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 2,691
    edited December 1969

    TheSavage64 said:
    Pic 1;
    Lit by sunlight with soft shadow, slight bit of light supplied by HDR in IBL.
    Rendered with True Ambience switched on (set to 256 RPP)

    Render time; just over 3 hours.

    Pic 2;
    Set up exactly the same as above only render settings at 64 RPP and no depth of field

    Render time; 40 minutes.


    Great paint shaders! Rendered in Bryce? Got to agree with Rareth :)
    Here is a car (with a girl in a swimsuit) rendered in Carrara, lit with HDRI and 2 spots for fill/hightlight (sorry for the links instead of direct image posts):
    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2130745
  • RarethRareth Posts: 1,458
    edited December 1969

    dustrider said:
    TheSavage64 said:
    Pic 1;
    Lit by sunlight with soft shadow, slight bit of light supplied by HDR in IBL.
    Rendered with True Ambience switched on (set to 256 RPP)

    Render time; just over 3 hours.

    Pic 2;
    Set up exactly the same as above only render settings at 64 RPP and no depth of field

    Render time; 40 minutes.


    Great paint shaders! Rendered in Bryce? Got to agree with Rareth :)
    Here is a car (with a girl in a swimsuit) rendered in Carrara, lit with HDRI and 2 spots for fill/hightlight (sorry for the links instead of direct image posts):
    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2130745

    Yes the VW bugs were rendered in Bryce,

  • Dave SavageDave Savage Posts: 2,433
    edited December 1969

    dustrider said:
    Great paint shaders! Rendered in Bryce?
    Yes rendered in Bryce. :)

    What I tend to do is import models into Bryce and spend a lot of time swapping over all the material zones to Bryce procedurals.

    dustrider said:
    Got to agree with Rareth :)

    It's no trouble swapping the colour to white, but applying Herbie graphics on to a messy mesh using the Bryce DTE or Mat Lab would be a right royal pain in the butt and the model didn't come with a flat mesh template to UV map one on to... Otherwise I'd be temped to have a go at a flame job for it. :cheese:

    Here is a car (with a girl in a swimsuit) rendered in Carrara, lit with HDRI and 2 spots for fill/hightlight (sorry for the links instead of direct image posts):
    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2130745
    The car looks more real than the girl but the girl is certainly more ****able! :zip:

  • cheryls_sparkles_ae00b9a9a4cheryls_sparkles_ae00b9a9a4 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    This head and shoulders were done in Studio 4.5 not sure how realistic everyone thinks it is, but I am happy with this level of realism.

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  • cheater2001_061d500d4dcheater2001_061d500d4d Posts: 4
    edited February 2013

    daz studio 4.5, uber environment2, specular only spot, specular only, infinite light, area light disc, area light headlamp blocker, victoria 4, vhp limei, tama hair 1.5 hours plus render time

    first_photo_realistic_render_test_8.jpg
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    Post edited by cheater2001_061d500d4d on
  • JabbaJabba Posts: 1,458
    edited December 1969

    converted to jpg from png - apart from that, untouched...

    arsenal.jpg
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  • MistaraMistara Posts: 38,675
    edited December 1969

    a scene like that is a lot of collision detection, yes? :)

  • MistaraMistara Posts: 38,675
    edited December 1969

    doppleganger10 said:
    daz studio 4.5, uber environment2, specular only spot, specular only, infinite light, area light disc, area light headlamp blocker, victoria 4, vhp limei, tama hair 1.5 hours plus render time


    with a lil tweaking on her lip texture would +++ to her uberness :idea:

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,634
    edited December 1969

    TheSavage64 said:
    Pic 1;
    Lit by sunlight with soft shadow, slight bit of light supplied by HDR in IBL.
    Rendered with True Ambience switched on (set to 256 RPP)

    Render time; just over 3 hours.

    Pic 2;
    Set up exactly the same as above only render settings at 64 RPP and no depth of field

    Render time; 40 minutes.

    Nice renders but where did you get that Beetle from..very nice model. I must have it. :)
  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 6,879
    edited December 1969

    araneldon said:
    Alex L: While you do have a point, your examples are a bit contrived. It's much more difficult to achieve good lighting using a biased renderer when your image shows more than a single character on an empty stage.

    Try fooling us with a fully decorated interior, and don't put everything but a figure in front out of focus either ;)

    The point was this...

    The point with this exercise is that you can achieve the look & feel you want if you understand the tools at your disposal, and what they need from your subject in order to give the desired results. You can create incredibly accurate photo realism with a canvas & paint, or a graphite pencil if you understand texture, light & shadow.

    ... and not the images or subject used.

    I have been using the Reality plugin from the beginning and I have seen many images rendered in Lux that while the lighting it nice, the rest of the image suffered from poor surface setup.


    There is no easy way of doing any of this no matter how people advertise it - http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/17351/

  • Dave SavageDave Savage Posts: 2,433
    edited December 1969

    Szark said:
    Nice renders but where did you get that Beetle from..very nice model. I must have it. :)

    Thanks :)

    It's a Dalmatiner model, I guess I got it from ShareCG, but I just did a search and can't find it to give you a link and it's not on his website.

    Ok, just Googled it and this looks like the same one (I did quite a bit of work on it in Bryce bedfore rendering my pics).

  • cipher_Xcipher_X Posts: 121
    edited December 1969

    Rendered in DS3.

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  • ArkathanArkathan Posts: 65
    edited February 2013

    Biased? Unbiased? Bah!
    You want "realistic" simulated 3D images?
    Just cross your eyes...

    ETA: DS 4.5

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    Post edited by Arkathan on
  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,629
    edited December 1969

    magaremoto said:
    evilproducer said:
    Did this one awhile ago. Pretty simple scene. I wanted to test how minimal I could go.


    Carrara 7.2 Pro render.


    One light and a white background color. Partial GI- Meaning I only had the Skylight option enabled and not full Indirect lighting. Skylight allows for the white Background color (or anything in the scenes's Background actually) to act like an IBL. I simulated SSS by using the skin's color image map in the glow channel.


    unbeatable hair EP, well done, I'd like to see some other shots that makes hair so real
    this is my SSS test made in Carrara 8

    I'm not sure how relevant the thread's theme really is - good arguments have been made about mastery of tools and artistry versus tech - but there have been some great renders.


    This is my favorite one of the thread. Yes, realistic humans aren't really possible, but this looks more like one than anything else I've seen. I love how imperfect he is, not grotesque but reasonable, and how alive his expression is.

  • nDelphinDelphi Posts: 1,845
    edited December 1969

    I'll join in the fun with this one, it's an oldie of mine, done originally in the nude. I threw some clothes on her in this version.

    DAZ Studio 4.5/Reality/LuxRender.

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  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,634
    edited December 1969

    TheSavage64 said:
    Szark said:
    Nice renders but where did you get that Beetle from..very nice model. I must have it. :)

    Thanks :)

    It's a Dalmatiner model, I guess I got it from ShareCG, but I just did a search and can't find it to give you a link and it's not on his website.

    Ok, just Googled it and this looks like the same one (I did quite a bit of work on it in Bryce bedfore rendering my pics).
    Sorry for my late Thanks. Yeah great model...shame the downloads don't work any more. I willl keep searching for a good beetle. Thanks for searching for me though Savage, much appreciated.

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,634
    edited December 1969

    Great thread and I wish I had my new computer already to try some things I have learnt since making the images below.

    I have read all what has been said already and these are just my thoughts and opinions and I feel like sharing, adding to the mix .

    When I first started all this I was wrapped up in how real can I get with the tools I had. I soon realised it wasn’t easy and I needed real world understanding of surfaces and light, down to some pretty heavy reading heading toward scientific papers etc etc and I am still reading and learning. I am better now and just love doing any art work, it doesn’t have to be in the realism camp but I still want to do more in the future.

    One thing I noticed here that most people are talking lighting but IMHO surfaces play a big part in the end result. For me I spilt the important factors of an image in to 3, one third for surfaces, another for lighting and the last, composition.

    Now when it comes to biased or unbiased well, there you have me at a disadvantage as I haven’t had the chance or computer to play with the latter. But this is not to say I know nothing about them. ;) I am not one of these folks that will say one thing is better than the other as far as I am concerned they are apples and oranges, and tools nothing more. But I would say that buy the looks of say Reality/Lux the surfaces and lighting would be easier to set up than say Poser and Daz Studio. It is my understanding in an unbiased render engine the reflection of a surface is dependent on how shinny and smooth a surface is. As we know biased engines have the Specular and Reflection independent of each other so in one way we can have more artistic control in a biased engine. We can have a shiny surface with reflection or without...we have the artistic freedom in that sense.

    When it comes to humans the first thing I do when attempting realism is to make the face non symmetrical, making one eye smaller than the other, bend the nose a little, make one breast smaller then the other etc etc. The models we use are so symmetrical which doesn’t look real from the get go. This I would class this as “imperfection” as already mentioned some pages back.

    Hair was another issue with me but with the advent of Hair plug-ins using the Renderman Curves that will not be a problem anymore.
    Then comes the detail...detail is everything IMHO which I include as Composition. Zev0’s morphs and Vascularity sets are good start in getting that detail.

    Finally my point is with the more detail we can inject I think the more real we can get using whatever render engine.

    These two images we done some time ago one in Poser 8and one in DS4 early beta and now when I look at them I see where I have gone wrong. When I first made them I thought they were fairly realistic now I don’t think so. Yes very subjective, but I think that the more you learn the more you can see through to the CGI.

    And yes there is a little poswork like Colour Staturation levels increased for both and smoke for the pipe smoking dude and that is it.

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  • FirstBastionFirstBastion Posts: 7,317
    edited December 1969

    Carrara can do a decent job on nature.

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