New User Contest Revamp Discussion
DAZ_ann0314
Posts: 2,814
Hi Everyone!
We (the CVs and myself) wanted to take the opportunity to say how wonderful it has been working with you all in the New User Contest and what a pleasure it has been to see you all learn and grow 
We also wanted to take this opportunity to discuss some things with you as well. We have been taking a look at the New User Contest and are considering some very large changes to the "Contest". In the past, we have run the contest so that there was a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place winner but the purpose and point of the contest has always been about learning different techniques and skills in the various software programs (though generally more specifically in Daz Studio) As such, we get a pretty big draw of people with varying experience artistically which can make "winning" difficult for those who are "new" to Daz Studio and also new to doing artwork.
In an effort to make the contest more accessible to everyone, we are considering moving away from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd place style contest in favor of doing something a bit different and wanted your thoughts on it since the point of all this is to give a fun learning environment. Our idea to get rid of the "Contest" in favor of having more of a "Challenge" thread (somewhat similar to the WIP Thread we currently have) but rather than submitting an entry at the end, the prizes will be given out to various people based on their participation. So we could give a prize for "Best Question" or "Best Answer". We could give a prize for "Most Improved" or "Most Revisions" and similar things. We felt this would encourage you all to keep helping each other (something you all do so very well) as well as refocus things on the learning rather than people being discouraged or feeling nervous about the "winning". We would still pick who wins what prizes at the beginning of the next month and we would still announce who "won" the different categories like Most Improved but it would allow us to give out more prizes for hard work and participation rather than who created the best image at the end.
My question is, what do you think about this idea? Do you have any concerns? Do you perhaps have another idea or suggestion?
Whatever we decide, we will be doing a trial run of the "idea" in December and then decide either for starting in January or February whether to stay with what we have been doing or switch (depends on how any change is received).
Your feedback and thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated and we look forward to hearing your ideas! 
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Comments
I like your ideas about revamping the monthly contest and the categories you're suggesting.
Here are a couple things that could use clarification or support.
There seems to be a little confusion on what/how much is acceptable postwork, and how that is implemented. I guess my thought was if it is sold in the Daz Store, then it is acceptable to use in the contest/challenge, without having to merge it back into the rendering process.
Would it be possible, in the event there is no constructive response to a WIP after X days, or there are conflicting responses, that a moderator or designated backup step in and provide feedback? Someone could say "Great lighting!" and someone else could say "It's too dark. You need more lighting."
You know, DAZ_ann0314, I like this idea very much. I have learned considerable over the months that I have been participating in these contests. More importantly, I have really had fun with the opportunity to both give and receive feedback.
I think that participation is important to encourage, especially from the contestants. There are always a few entries during the contest where the artists posted the finished work without asking for any feedback in the WIP thread. I would have loved to make some comments/suggestions to these individuals, but as the Entry thread doesn't allow comments, I wasn't able to.
Also, the change in the rules allows for other individuals to be recognized who don't have the perfect render - I really like the Most Improved and Most Revisions idea. Best Answer/Comment/Suggestion is a great way to encourage feedback participation.
Here are some category suggestions (yours are included):
Most Improved
Most Revisions
Best Question
Best Answer. There were some great tutorials in the October contest.
Best Encouragement. (I say this because someone once commented that he/she wouldn't bother with entering because some renders were so good. I encouraged him/her to enter anyway because the point of the contest is to learn).
Most Unique/Unusual. Something for a really cool idea that you just don't see everyday.
Best Shader Replacement. This is for replacing materials that are designed for the software/render engine you are using.
Best Kit-Bashing. This could be an outfit/props or environment - but the idea is combining items into a unit and making them look like they belong together.
Best Background. You will need to decide if this includes photos. But there is definitely a challenge to make the subjects look like they belong in a photo (lighting, etc), and making a seamless transition from the render to the photo.
Best Material Conversion. Daz Studio: 3Delight to Iray and vise versa. Poser has 2 render engines as well. Items originally designed for Daz Studio used and optimized in other software (Vue, Bryce, Poser, etc), and items designed for other software and converted to Daz Studio or other application. It's always a challenge to convert items and make them look good in your software/render engine and I feel this is a good category to be recognized.
Best Problem-Solving. If there is a problem in a render that requires more work to fix, like deforming or importing a piece of clothing into a modeling program to create your own morph when there isn't one available.
I like this idea as well and I like the additional categories that Dracorn posted. I know I have been doing the newbie contest for close to a year and just won for the first time last month. I participate far more to learn (which I have, its been a totally awesome experience) than to win but there is always that little bit in the back of your mind, wondering if its going to be good enough. I encourage people to come over and join us whenever I can but I totally understand the intimidation factor as well. It can be very intimidating to come into something like this with no skills at all and see what some *beginners* are putting out there, not realizing that while we are still beginners, some of us are more intermediate beginners and not beginner beginners. With the changes mentioned I think it will even that out a bit so that the people who are so new they aren't sure where anything is at and those who are a bit further along can both continue to learn without having to worry so much about how "good" a render ends up being.
dracorn, you have some great suggestions!
DAZ_ann0314, these changes sound more fun to judge, too.
I like several of these categories. Kit-bashing, material conversion and deforming wouldn't be among beginning skills though, would they? I would have also said that about shader replacement but I just bought shaders in the store today.
Hmm, good point. Maybe some of those categories would work well in a more advanced challenge. We don't want to overwhelm or scare off the absolute new user. Keep the ideas coming!
I am coming to the new user contest to learn Studio, which I have not really opened except to use the transfer utility. This challenge is great as it is. Even just lurking for a week or two I have learned a lot. However, I support any changes that y'all think will provide encouragement to participants. I intend to try a Studio project for the next new user challenge. I can already tell that I will want to experiment wth the bridges to Hexagon and Bryce - so I'll have questions for those programs as well. Therefore, I like the idea of promoting all of Daz's software, not just Studio. And I really mean "promoting," not just permitting.
Thanks.
I'm throwing out everything I think of.
But you both make good points. Perhaps what needs to be defined is "what is a beginner?" Someone who has used 3D software for 1 year or less? Some artwork in these contests are by absolute beginners and those who have been using 3D for a few years.
The original terms of the contest was based on winning - if you won first place twice you could no longer post entries, but were invited to continue to make helpful comments.
So I fall under the "haven't won first place twice yet (or at all)" category - and I do all of the above. I have been using Daz Studio effectively with my new computer since September 2015, so when do I graduate out of the new user category?
(I say effectively because my 7 year old computer would crash if I tried to render one figure with clothes, lighting and no background).
Another idea: Can those who have earned the Community Volunteer or similar MVP title display it in their signature, or ideally can Daz display it by their name? I know I can click their name to see extended info, but it would be nice to see it when they post.
I'm quiet at the moment but I am reading so you know...and thinking
Thanks so much for all the great feedback so far and keep it coming! I'll reply more specifically probably later today 
On the question of who is a Beginner and for how long:
). That said, even if we could come up with a way to know how long someone has been doing xyz, we never wanted to turn anyone away that had something they wanted to learn nor do we want to give those people an edge. It makes it a very loaded question which is why we are attempting to move in a direction that would (hopefully) rectify that by allowing us to engage more people who may be at varying levels.
This specific question has forever plagued (and trust me the word choice is appropriate) the team as to how to define it or how to cut it off etc. We want the contest/challenge to be for people new to the site, new to 3D, new to a specific software app, or even new to a specific topic. (Basically anyone who is new to some part or part(s) ) The trick has always been that to define a length of time would mean to know somehow things that we can't possibly know which is "how long has someone been doing xyz". You can't really go by how long someone is on the site as some people download xyz software and walk away for a year or something then come back. Some people will play for the next year on their own, possibly decide they are struggling with certain topics or skills and then come get help. You can be new to a specific topic like lighting, new to the software completely but not new to 3D or art, or you can be new to all the above. It makes it very hard to "limit" people or weed out those who could maybe not be new at all. It would basically take us being able to read minds (and alas I've never managed to develop that skill
On the comments about participation in the WIP Thread:
We have at various times discussed requiring WIP Thread Participation. Not requiring it, I admit, has generally been due to my objections/worries. My worry has always been that those that are more introverted or that perhaps like to read and follow along but maybe doesn't want or even potentially can't take critique would then be forced into having to do something that makes them uncomfortable. I know I have issues in those areas myself. I'm easily frustrated and discouraged (if I am honest) so, for some, critique can harm creativity, cause stress, etc. and rather than being helpful can actually do more harm than good. I was hesitant to want to go that route. That said, if we switch to this, we would be going very much in that direction (of requiring participation) but I am willing to take the gamble and see how that is received as well as hear any solutions for how to minimize any negative impact in those cases.
Anyone here that is less likely to want to participate in the WIP Thread, I'd love to hear from you as to why or any possible ideas you have. You can also feel free to e-mail me at [email protected] if you would prefer not to post in the thread about this topic specifically or about the contest as a whole or the changes to it.
Postwork (as much or as little as you like) is allowed in the contest unless it is specifically noted (Contests like the Lighting Contest we generally disallow postwork but most others it is allowed) We handle that on a contest by contest basis and mention in the post when it is not allowed. As postwork is very much a part of artistic expression and practicing it is a key part to many artists, we allow for it.
On this question, I have no great solution. Someone could ask me (I'm always available to anyone who wants to ask me something, just e-mail or message me on here) That said, art is subjective. Technically there is no "right or wrong". Most things are subjective to who is viewing and what they think as well as what the artist thinks. (Or at least when it comes to "too dark" "too bright" "too busy" etc type comments) What one person sees as an issue another can see as creating a certain mood or adding to the image. Getting both critiques can be equally valid so it is generally up to the artist to take both into account and try to decide what they feel is best. Granted, there can be compromise in those things. Like in the case of "too dark", maybe you want it dark to set a mood but want people to still be able to see it so you may decide based on both critiques that maybe the addition of some spot lighting in certain areas would help details be more visible while still keeping the mood. (hopefully that somewhat answered your question) As another option, you could ask both people what areas specifically they find too dark etc as well.
Ill answer some more a bit later, for the moment I need to run out. Again, I want to thank you all for all the feedback and ideas so far as well as all the great questions!
Thank you @DAZ_ann0314. Wow, coming from my an I.T. background, art is so different. Sure, there can be a number of ways to fix a bug, but in the end your decision either works or it doesn't. And it better work.
Trying to apply that to art, such as opposing responses like "too dark" or "not dark enough" (I was just using these as an example, by the way) in my mind yields "One of these choices can help me win the contest, so which is it? Who best can help me decide which is correct? If too dark, by how much should I lighten it?"
Having said that, even if it is decided to change from contest to learning challenge--which I'm all for--I'll still struggle with "Did I use the right colors/lighting/opacity etc.? Does it look right?"
OK I'm back again.
And yeah art is definitely different from IT for sure (having done a bit of both) Art is generally about breaking conventional rules etc (its what many love about art) It used to be that using say complimentary colors was a "must" to try to keep the flow etc of your color palet. Then someone came along and said but contrasting colors can add a lot of dynamics. Both concepts were right. Art is very much an "eye of the beholder" thing though. For one person too dark is a bad thing, for the next viewer it's perfect. The trick as a creator is to try to find the balance in those things which generally comes more from trial and error and you then having options and deciding what you like best since the mood, subject, intentions of the piece is always decided by the artist. Now on the "too dark" note (and I know it was only an example but it is actually a really good one) sometimes it can be differences in monitors and calibrations as well which adds an extra difficulty to that because sometimes it isn't too dark. That person's monitor is just displaying it darker. In cases like that you kinda have to go with what the majority says over all because it could be your own monitor is off and so it looks brighter to you than everyone else. I've had it happen to me before..talk about frustrating LOL
Thanks for your feedback and really great suggestions! :) Some may be more difficult to implement than others or some would maybe be better suited to specific "segments" of the contest (Like best material conversion may be better suited to when we do the materials challenge as an example) but it definitely gives lots of food for thought for the CVs!
On your question about participation, I answered that (well explained it) a few posts up.
We try our best to attempt to forsee and take into account a lot of different things. Sometimes when you are trying to balance all that it can be tough to choose what the best course of action is, which is why we decided to do this post to get additional feedback from everyone. Running the contest versus participating in it are very different things, so knowing how you all feel, what issues you can see, etc is a very important part of this process to the entire Community Volunteer Team 
)
And can I just say what a wonderful CV Team we have. They really do work so hard on this contests to be sure it is fun and educational. (I just wanted to take the opportunity to thank them because they really are an amazing team of people to work with
Thank you so much for your thoughts and feedback!
I don't disagree on some parts of that being more advanced or intermediate skills. Though we are kicking around another, potentially more advanced, challenge as well so those may work there but shhh you didn't hear that from me and we haven't yet fully decided so it could change and morph into a totally different idea in the end.
There are some good ideas here. As it is I constantly feel that I'm being out rendered every month.
Thanks for the feedback
I understand what you are saying about the other software packages (AKA Carrara, Hexagon, Bryce) That said a fair few of those all ready have established contests (Bryce does for sure and I believe Carrara has at various times) We do have people skilled in those apps on the team but generally more people come to the New User Contest in search of Daz Studio information specifically (though we do try to offer links and information on some of the others applications as they apply and are always happy to answer questions in whatever DAZ Owned software package you may be using). Hexagon is a bit trickier since with that applications you are discussing modeling which is not a New User concept. What is best to use tool wise or how to approach something can vary greatly by what you are trying to do (IE are you editing a material, are you doing a morph, are you changing poly flow of an existing model, are you trying to model from scratch, etc) so it makes it very hard to "teach". We do have a very nice list of Tutorials (which I am hoping to update very soon) on the different software in the New User Forums though.
We have discussed getting "this advanced" for some challenges (like a modeling challenge as an example) but trying to use that to teach is more difficult and can be very time consuming for the participants as well as those helping and I admit to not being entirely sure how we would approach something like that.
Dont disagree that would be nice (being part of the Avatar section) it used to be. Sadly, I don't think it is an option with this software (hense why mine doesn't say Administrator under my name anymore either) We could discuss maybe adding some sort of "banner" to our signature tags (I know I have my positions at Daz 3D in mine) I'll mention it
Great idea! 
Same here. You are not alone.
Thanks so much for your feedback!
((HUGS)) everyone starts somewhere...you should see some of my first renders
(Actually I may post one if I can dig one out) Our intention is never to make anyone feel they are better or worse than others - one of the reasons that moving away from a contest format seems a good idea. Our goal is to help everyone at whatever level they are at as best we can 
If you have any ideas whatsoever on how to help with that goal, we would love to hear from you! 
Where I started out (granted not exactly because many of my very first renders I couldn't even manage to put clothing on and they would violate the TOS ROFL so this is about 6 months from when I started) I wish I could find one of my very first images to show that would be appropriate but seriously, wardrobe malfuntion was my middle name for a LONG TIME which is why you will note I did a lot of painting clothing LOL:
This is where I ended up (though these images are a couple years old now as well..I don't get to do much artwork for art's sake anymore due to doing PA work but):
Be assured that nobody is laughing at you or anything like that. It takes lots of practice. Some have more time than others to play with 3D software. Some are adicted and can't do anything else anymore (looking at self
). Some have extensive art backgrounds and others of have never taken a class or done anything like this before. Just try to out-render yourself each time. That is where the satisfaction comes from. 
Another older image: