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Someone knows how the "assimilation" will work?
I mean, it's already going and bit by bit we will see the RDNA products in store and in library or it will be an "once for all, resistance is futile" adding with our accounts frozen in the meanwhile?
And about the SKUs, they will be treated ad new products in the store and follow the existant numbers or they will have their own codes?
With all the cheerleading and rah-rah going on for the merge, I decided to pop over and look at the store. My first impression of the store was there is a nice variety of products, and some of it was showcased well. However, I am extremely disappointed in the promo art disparity.
Some of the art was similar to here, well done, some was acceptable so far as the rendering of it, but didn't show the product very well (half a face for a character?) Immediately in some of the promo art, I noticed the lack of highlights (pictures dull, no contrast), midtones and shadows lacking (bleached blonde hair, no detail, washed out faces without nose detail,etc) and images oversaturated with gamma and darkly lit- (Madness Took Me for example.)
It was definitely a mixed bag, again, let me repeat many of the promos were very nicely done- but bluntly, we don't need that other (IMO) amateur looking artwork mixed into this store. Frankly, I do not want this store looking anything like RDNA. While the promos here aren't perfect, you would never see a Madness Took Me promo in this store, and I don't want to see that brought over because you, Daz, bought another store.
I'd personally want that other promo art/products put in a different section, and any future products MUST have promo art that meets the standards here. (And ours aren't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, believe me I know.)
There's a lack of consistency among those promos, please don't dump that into our mix over here. The promo art that meets the standards here, mix it in, there's a lot of it- but PLEASE weed out those other promos.
This is said with empathy- I would be upset if I thought my content opeions were going to dry up too.
But as a newcomer to this issue, I don't understand why poser users are not upset with Smith Micro?? Why isn't the company that owns Poser offering to take Runtime and it's forums under it's wing?
If the old owners of Runtime are as beloved as they seem to be- why do Poser users think they made this move? Why aren't you angry with them, if you feel it is such a bad thing for Poser users? Do you beleive Daz forced them into it? Do you have any faith or trust in them to have made an ironclad agreement with Daz that will work out well for everyone?
I, for one, am really hoping to see more awesome content for both platforms...and to get Star in the Daz store!!!!!
I'm wondering this too, though I'm guessing within a week or two.
I just finished re-downloading everything from RDNA - just in case something isn't transfering over, or in case something goes wrong - but I'd prefer to download and install from DAZ because a lot of the older file names at RDNA are a half-step from useless, and I had too many to rename them all (not to mention some are bundles of products with no indication as to what, actually, is in a given zip, other than part of the bundle.)
Remember that like DAZ, RDNA have been around for a long time, and so some of its products are also old, and the promos were rendered many years ago in an inferior renderer. Look at the art work in some of the promos here for a lot of the really old stuff, like the stuff for M2/V2 or even some of the M3/V3 stuff. The promos were likely done in Poser 4 with little in the way of proper shadows or anything advanced.
On the first page? I would assume that would be their most recent products!
Ah, well if you were referring only to the new stuff, then that is different.
I'm with Novica Some of the promo art needs work. One of the reasons I stopped shopping there were the creepy kid/dolls and the promo image. I don't remember the product now, but It rubbed me the wrong way.
LOL, so I'm not the only one.
Greetings,
Wow; that's one outfit that lives up to its name. :) Anyway, items moving into the DAZ store does NOT mean that they are being converted to G2F/G3F, anymore than the 'yuge' backcatalog of V4 stuff here has been converted. In fact, I'll argue that over-aggressive asking (not that that's what you are doing) for conversions might be a problem, as a lot of the reason some PAs remained at other stores was that they desire to just serve Poser users. So be..gentle. :)
Yeah, it's something I've always noticed... On DAZ's store, the promo art is generally really good. It usually manages to capture the relevant information (what it looks like, what all the pieces are, etc.) but also is pleasant to look at. When you go to the other stores (although Hivewire did a reasonable job for a while, I haven't been back in a while) the promo art starts to be...garish, poorly lit, and repetitive. One of the things I remember specifically, was that IH Kang had to step up their promo game a little bit when they started publishing here in addition to 'rosity. Not a lot, but just enough.
That's not to say there aren't oddities here as well, but I'm a little more hard-pressed to find them, and they usually are due to the difficulty in showing all the textures included without repetition.
I do hope that DAZ works with the incoming vendors and helps them bring their best promo game; it'll make the vendors more money as well!
-- Morgan
On the Promo art issue
I rather liked RuntimeDNAs promo art, in some ways better than DAZ. It shows what results I am LIKELY to get from using the product.
Daz promo art shows the upper limit of what MAY be possible to get the product to look like. They ARE gorgeous, but as far as I can gauge, unattainable.
When I was a kid, when you bought a model, the instructions usually told you how to get it to look exactly like the image on the box.
I suggested that something similar could be done here (even if you had the option to pay an extra dollar or so for the "formula" if you wanted). I was shouted down and was told it was a stupid idea.
I have never gotten an image to look anything like Stonemason's and frankly I don't have time or advanced equipment to figure it out.
RuntimeDNAs promos are honest and realistic
+1
Greetings,
I don't think it's an either/or thing. I believe you can be honest and realiistic and still looking good. (And many environments these days come with 'promo render' scene files, so you can exactly replicate the feel of the promo. I13 is particularly to note for that. Check out the Coffee Shop as an example of that.)
Now Stonemason is a special case in so many ways; for one, I think some of the promo pictures are rendered using 3D Studio Max. Others are rendered with Iray, but with dual Titan X's. O_o¡
But PA's can present their products in a good light without that level of committment; it takes having at least slightly varied backgrounds, using DoF to focus on their product, taking a little care with lighting, shadow, don't abuse gamma, and not making every image look like every other image. Vary the angles, show the back of the product, etc., even if you're just making a texture set... Jack Tomalin has an interesting thing he does where he shows an exploded view, for example. But the key is to show your product in a good light, so that folks know what CAN be done with it. Here's a stark example, this piece (Daydreaming) is a lovely artistic use of The Conservatory furniture. I could not have imagined that you'd get to Daydreaming from that. The promo pictures are flat, devoid of shadow, lifeless, and I'd never have bought it. Now Daydreaming isn't a great promo picture, it's obscured, and the textures have been tweaked, but I just would never have pictured getting to that from those promo pictures. Just a little more attention and care would have done wonders...
You CAN produce promo pictures with life and quality, that are still honest and realistic. And they'll make more money. :)
-- Morgan
Take it as a challenge to learn. ;)
I've been using DS for only a year and a half, and the quality of my renders has gotten better almost expontentially.
I think that official character promos are rarely accurate these days (as soon by simple evidence of customers posting images immediately upon release and the massive difference shown) but environments are usually pretty accurate and also tend to do clay renders as mentioned (clothing too, though those tend to not show the horror that is trying to arrange conforming clothing at times.)
I can certainly agree with you that some of the artwork here is beautifully done, no doubt about it, and we should keep those standards, not lower them. BUT, regarding the quality of promo art, there's renders in the art studio threads that regularly look as good as, or even better than the promo art here, and not by seasoned pros, just regular people. I noticed your argument hinged on Stonemason's renders, so there you go, my first try, using the DEFAULT Iray light, with only tweaking Exposure Value, Film ISO, Crush Blacks and Burn Highlights. It's not a masterpiece, not Stonemason's quality, but IMO it looks better than the promos I referenced. IMO those aren't realistic- they're not well rendered for promo art. And every promo here isn't done by Stonemason, there's a variety, and most of the time, it's up to the same standards.
Just look at the TYPICAL promo art here and it's very attainable. I wouldn't want my art to look like that over-gamma saturated one. I really don't think you settle for that either, do you? I'm talking about the washed out renders, the dark, flat ones, the gamma-to-death overly saturated promos. (That actually hurt your eyes to look at.) As I said, most are fine- I assume those are the ones you are able to relate to, and I certainly agree it's nice to have promos which are typical results of the product. It's a shame they shot down your idea, that sounds like a very good one to me.
The other consideration, to be fair, is whether your machine can handle Iray. My render was done in it and that can make some, to a lot, of difference. I hope you know I am not picking on you Tsarist, I agree with you that promo art which shows typical results is nice. I think the promos here generally do that, and we kinda know the vendor's styles regarding their artwork.
well, Madnesss Took Me is a pose pack for an asylum. Maybe the vendor was going for an Arkham style? If you browse the vendor's store, you should see that the promos are done in different styles that go along with their content.
Honestly, I dont care about textures and lighting when looking at poses. But thats my preference, and you have yours.
Also I know we have to move on to the future it is hard to see RDNA as shop go. I hope coorporation will folow with Poser or at least that we can export our files into Poser.
True I am not a big seller at DAZ with the purse I have, but both shops made stuff to me that made fun to work with. That's why I hope this marriage of shops doesn't forget where it started and many people like me are a fan of this world and want to keep on creating without the intention of making profit. That is something I noticed when several licences appeared,Profit! I also know when I read it right that my stuff is reachable in my Daz account. My question to this matter is how long? I hope that the stuff does not dissapear like the old files at Smit Micro did. To my luck I had the runtimes on a other disc when my file disc crashed. Those old databases are gone by the wind at Content Paradise. Also I am asking myself in how far we are able to dowload our files in future as we used to at RDNA.
I find the criticism about the RDNA Promo's kind of obnoxious. The stuff at RDNA was often going for mood more than any of the DAZ promo images ever do. My understanding is the CA's don't do the promo art at the DAZ store. Pretty sure on RDNA the CA's do their own promo renders and some of them are FAR superior to the promo renders here at DAZ. Just look at Pixiluna's promos for an example. Also if you want to see great promo art just go to Hivewire and look at what CWRW puts out for her promos.
Can we remember that the RDNA PA's and customers are reading this thread also? I image they're still in shock at having to change "homes" and are feeling unsettled at best. A PA shouldn't have to read that their promo images are being considered sub-par. Or the customers that bought there happily with those same promo images kind of having their artistic taste questioned.
People have been there for 15 years or so. This will be a big adjustment. What if it were Daz and us and our PA's? It would make me re-think if this is the right place for me.
Let's try and be welcoming and make them feel at home. :)
Yes, the PA's do their own Promo's here. It takes a significant amount of the time of a product's development time/effort.
Kendall
Even though this is miles off topic I'm going to respond to a couple of things.
1. Iray is only as unobtainable as you make it and your patience. My first two Iray products were done on a computer that I bought before any had heard the word cuda unless someone was talking about a fish. I spent 3 weeks back on that computer while my main was getting a fix about a month ago so I'm not looking back with a haze of memory. You have to be aware that you need good light levels and that going mad with reflection and glass will slow a render down. The same is true for 3dl but in different ways. Not everyone wants or needs what Iray has to offer. I get that. But if you want a heightened level of realism its doable even on a 7 year old cudaless computer. Realism IS doable with 3dl but the more you push it for tha the longer the render times get till Iray is faster.
2. Promos.. Yes, Daz gives notes on promos. It has been quite a while since I got one but over there years notes have included things like "Too dark", "I can see her breast in a reflection", "You may want to sub a robot in for that guy". So yes they push a little bit. Most of it though is done by myself or by other PA's when I show them previews. Don't you ever think for a second that Daz is half as critical with us as we are with ourselves and each other. The only way to get you to look at our products is with promos and we know it. Or income hinges on doing the best job that we can at the time.
3. Unattainable? For the most part absolutely not. Many products will get an "artistic" render. That means that it is well..artsy. It may get post worked fog, or rain or what ever. But even then it is still just a render of what the product is with extra bells and whistles. The rest get little to no post work. They might get a brightness adjustment, or a character artist may paint out some hair poking in the wrong spot. But over all post work is kept to the minimum. Plenty of promos get no post work at all these days. Part of why PA's love Iray to be honest. If promos look good it is more because the PA has experience setting up the scenes than that there is any sort of magic. And they constantly strive to do better ones because it is the only thing really out there selling our products.
I know that I've considered including "ready to render scenes" as "proof". I seriously thought about it for the light set that comes out next week. But then I started thinking how frustrating it would be for people if they didn't have the hair, or the clothes and got the big white boxes. Even worse if they didn't own V7 or M7 since I used them for the promos. I also would have had to be very careful about using anything that someone else created that was shader based or poses that I created. Trust me, finding enough stuff you like the look of that day for promos is a job in itself without having to limit a huge portion of it so you can share the scene.
Personally, I don't think the DAZ store promo art standard is that hard to achieve.
Personally, I think that default Iray settings without doing ANYTHING looks pretty good. Obviously there is a world beyond that you can do, but I don't see this idea of people looking at promos and then being unable to make anything acceptable themselves as a large thing?
As someone who's made a lot of noise about promos, I should also point out that I've only been criticising Daz's choices on what promos to use on their original bundles - the original characters of late in the one style chosen (although notably not Girl 7; she looked fantastic) and that the PA characters get cut down in promo form (look at any bundle character and then another character by the same PA and the promos are noticably more filled with information.) It's the lack of information to go along with the fancy stylised versions that I have the issue with.
As for RDNA promos, they're often a different style but that seems fine to me?
I thought you made a realIy good point on the ready to render scenes I don't know how many character sets I've bought that I couldn't make look as a good as the one in the promo because I didn't have the same hair and a ready to render scene would have done me no good. I've also run into this on occasion with tutorials that have scene files and something got left out
I don't think it's that poser userGiven the ramshakle state of Content Paradise and woeful lack of support for even their own characters, why would anyone want SM to take them over? Really, if you want to do right by the artists that have worked with you and move your content to a venue that's actually interested in making money from 3D content, there are three companies that make any kind of sense: DAZ, Renderosity and Hivewire. Though I should point out that we have a semi-new entry coming into the maket with CG-Bytes, a family friendly offshoot of Renderotica.
RE: renders. Personally, I feel that DAZ's store images frequently concentrate too much on what makes a pretty picture and not on the product itself. Ideally, I'd like to see something that is a compromise between what DAZ does with two or three nice artistic renders, with at least one EDL and one IRAY, along with two or three very basic "here's a simple pose that shows off the skin texture/makeup options/morphs/all the items in the costume assembled". And for gosh sakes, if you're going to use a lot of items in the prom images that aren't included with the product, give us a list of what the dang things are. I mean...
+1 totally agree