You've been heard. Response re: 4.9 and Encryption

Nath · February 2016

Khory said:

shadowhawk1 said:

Fixmypcmike said:

Ivy said:
Why do we need a daz connect button in a product library where we manual download our content? I thought connect worked thought the daz software not through our product libraries? Or is this just preparation for total DRM encrypted content in the near future?.

Customers asked for (a) an offline install option for Connect, and (b) an option to save the installer, so Daz listened and provided these capabilities.

So because a few new customers couldn't find content and won't take the time to learn how to install content, older established customers that have proven thier loyalty with thousands of dollars in purchases are being punished in the hopes that a few of them will become established customers?

Seriously? Why do I (not a new user thank you very much) need to learn how to do anything other than a standard install of the product? I've done a standard install for 10 years now am happier than ever with those standard installs.

Which is cool, but why should I have to conform my workflow to yours (or anyone else's, not singling you as 'you' out)? I don't expect others to follow my workflow/setup. That flexibility and convenience was actually one of the reasons I've ended up using Studio more than Poser over the years, since Studio allows/allowed me to set up my content directories almost entirely the way that I like them - for example, very few vanity folders (and those only where they help my workflow), and Vehicles are a category under Props, rather than their own top level category; poses for a specific prop are sorted with that prop rather than with the figure they're for, etc.

It may not work for anybody else, but it works for me, and is important enough that it makes Connect/encrypted content useless to me. And if that restrictive setup works for others, great, but don't assume it works or doesn't work for anyone other than yourself (again, 'you' general).

father1776 · February 2016

Honesty,

I have 770 products on my wish list, all non-encrypted and I will likely purchase most.

Will I add an encrypted item ? never If a publisher demands to see that I have legit right to the models I am using,

they will want to see the model and some statement that I purchased the rights.

If I say...there is a slight problem and I cannot access the encrypted model...it is over.

they think...pirated material, instant escort out the door.

Yes, it happens..A LOT.

So that is just my situation...only non-encrypted AND proof of licence of use

Will I stop buying...not any time soon, 770 products is a lot to buy

father1776 · February 2016

Question / suggestion

Disclaimer : I know nothing about coding or that stuff.

Suggestion (if possible) If encryption can be easily broken and the model pirated, would it be better or

at least an alternative to develope a way to embed a serial number, that cannot be removed without

wrecking the file in each model that is purchased...the serial number is basically the customer ID

all models purchased by joe blow have joe's customer serial number embeded in the product.

a product shows up in torrent, grab a copy and see whom bought it before it got torent'd

you have your pirate, lock their account

could they do this..no clue. some code expert might know

fred9803 · February 2016

I would say that the pirates, and there would only a few dozen of them, must be slapping each other on their backs and laughing about how they have forced Daz to produce a whole new software and marketing policy to accommodate them. Then take up the challenge to break Daz encryption with a relish. Daz must be opperating in some disconnected other-world to think they have a grip on this reality.

frogimus · February 2016

...and now that the techdirt article is on the web, hackers/crackers are going to see this as a new challenge, even those who had no interest in the 3D market.

Havos · February 2016

father1776_5775a1855d said:

Question / suggestion

Disclaimer : I know nothing about coding or that stuff.

Suggestion (if possible) If encryption can be easily broken and the model pirated, would it be better or

at least an alternative to develope a way to embed a serial number, that cannot be removed without

wrecking the file in each model that is purchased...the serial number is basically the customer ID

all models purchased by joe blow have joe's customer serial number embeded in the product.

a product shows up in torrent, grab a copy and see whom bought it before it got torent'd

you have your pirate, lock their account

could they do this..no clue. some code expert might know

This has been asked before, and will not work for a number of technical reasons, however a post from DAZ_Jon explains why this would barely help anyway. Here is the relevant section of what he said:

"There was a question way earlier on why we don't watermark the products in some way and that would be a lot less intrusive than the encryption. I don't know if one of the mods responded to that directly, but the short of it is it would have no effectiveness. Since the vast majority of pirated content is from fraudulent purchases, all it would tell us is which shutdown account that came from (which we can already associate to a large degree). It isn't useful to know "which anonymous email used a stolen card and uploaded this" since it doesn't provide any possible next step to stopping it."

a-sennov · February 2016

father1776_5775a1855d said:
Suggestion (if possible) If encryption can be easily broken and the model pirated, would it be better or
at least an alternative to develope a way to embed a serial number, that cannot be removed without

wrecking the file in each model that is purchased...the serial number is basically the customer ID

I can imagine at least two ways to embed ID into .duf/.dsf files so they remain to be human-readable and editable and ID will be hard to notice and/or to remove. It's doable, but...

What's next? You found the file on torrents and it's marked with some ID. Is that person criminal or victim? Did he uploaded that file himself or file was slolen from him and uploaded by someone else? Still you have to investigate the matters before taking any actions against him and that still a lot of work and money losses for DAZ.

That said, usually restrictive measures don't work, incentive do.

a-sennov · February 2016

Havos said:

Since the vast majority of pirated content is from fraudulent purchases

'3D Secure' is here for a long time... even pizza stores use it.

roberthutchinson · February 2016

Khory said:

shadowhawk1 said:

Fixmypcmike said:

Ivy said:
Why do we need a daz connect button in a product library where we manual download our content? I thought connect worked thought the daz software not through our product libraries? Or is this just preparation for total DRM encrypted content in the near future?.

Customers asked for (a) an offline install option for Connect, and (b) an option to save the installer, so Daz listened and provided these capabilities.

So because a few new customers couldn't find content and won't take the time to learn how to install content, older established customers that have proven thier loyalty with thousands of dollars in purchases are being punished in the hopes that a few of them will become established customers?

Seriously? Why do I (not a new user thank you very much) need to learn how to do anything other than a standard install of the product? I've done a standard install for 10 years now am happier than ever with those standard installs.

Amen to that!!

Kerya · February 2016

Nath said:

Which is cool, but why should I have to conform my workflow to yours (or anyone else's, not singling you as 'you' out)? I don't expect others to follow my workflow/setup. That flexibility and convenience was actually one of the reasons I've ended up using Studio more than Poser over the years, since Studio allows/allowed me to set up my content directories almost entirely the way that I like them - for example, very few vanity folders (and those only where they help my workflow), and Vehicles are a category under Props, rather than their own top level category; poses for a specific prop are sorted with that prop rather than with the figure they're for, etc.

It may not work for anybody else, but it works for me, and is important enough that it makes Connect/encrypted content useless to me. And if that restrictive setup works for others, great, but don't assume it works or doesn't work for anyone other than yourself (again, 'you' general).

As far as I read you can move Poser folder/files around too nowadays (starting with Poser9, I think). Just an FYI ...

So you can put a dress in the characters folder and add a subfolder for the materials and move the mc6 or pz2 there.

(Still don't touch Geometries or Textures folders - like you shouldn't Daz Data folders)

roberthutchinson · February 2016

father1776_5775a1855d said:

Question / suggestion

Disclaimer : I know nothing about coding or that stuff.

Suggestion (if possible) If encryption can be easily broken and the model pirated, would it be better or

at least an alternative to develope a way to embed a serial number, that cannot be removed without

wrecking the file in each model that is purchased...the serial number is basically the customer ID

Now, THAT, is a good idea!!

father1776_5775a1855d said:

all models purchased by joe blow have joe's customer serial number embeded in the product.

a product shows up in torrent, grab a copy and see whom bought it before it got torent'd

you have your pirate, lock their account

could they do this..no clue. some code expert might know

Nath · February 2016

Kerya said:

Nath said:

Which is cool, but why should I have to conform my workflow to yours (or anyone else's, not singling you as 'you' out)? I don't expect others to follow my workflow/setup. That flexibility and convenience was actually one of the reasons I've ended up using Studio more than Poser over the years, since Studio allows/allowed me to set up my content directories almost entirely the way that I like them - for example, very few vanity folders (and those only where they help my workflow), and Vehicles are a category under Props, rather than their own top level category; poses for a specific prop are sorted with that prop rather than with the figure they're for, etc.

It may not work for anybody else, but it works for me, and is important enough that it makes Connect/encrypted content useless to me. And if that restrictive setup works for others, great, but don't assume it works or doesn't work for anyone other than yourself (again, 'you' general).

As far as I read you can move Poser folder/files around too nowadays (starting with Poser9, I think). Just an FYI ...

So you can put a dress in the characters folder and add a subfolder for the materials and move the mc6 or pz2 there.

(Still don't touch Geometries or Textures folders - like you shouldn't Daz Data folders)

Ooh.... *is excited*

Note to self: experiment!

(and I always steer clear of Geometries/Textures and Daz Data folders *g*)

hzr · February 2016

Frank__ said:

Crackers will crack DRM, not because of getting some 3d-models for nothing, but because of the challenge of cracking DRM. The usual thieves will use their code to crack DAZ-products and post them on the usual sites.

I thought the DAZ DRM would last about 3 month, but I've read somewhere - maybe at DAZ - that the encrypted stuff is already available un-encrypted. (How much time you spent on establishing the already-cracked-DRM-funnies, while someone could work on animation-stuff on Studio, Genesis 3 in Carrara - I digress.

The whole better handling of content, content updates, smart content etc. for beginners could have been implemented without the DRM-stuff. So your points 2 and 3 are obsolete.

Couldnt have said it better. Also, a mass of disgruntled customers, who will buy less or even nothing for a while or maybe forever, will most likely be more expensive to the company than stepping back from a DRM system that the customers do not feel good about. But the decision is up to them. I do not want to see them fail but decisions like this and basically ignoring the complaints of their userbase will not help DAZ as a company when it comes to customer trust.

Not long until some cracker finds a way for ppl to unlock most of the store content by some fake login and then you will be even worse off than before when it comes to piracy.

We are your customers, each (well me at least) spending hundreds of dollars every year on content, and there has been a mass of complaints and discussion against this, yet you seem to ignore that and the only thing you are willing to do is share some explanation of what you want to do next, you are not adressing any of the concerns apart from the failsafe. Also, no word about how intrusive this DRM only content will be, how much in a rough percentage we have to expect in the future, what specific help you will offer content creators to bypass the encryption for helpful scripting etc. Going by how much care you put in maintaining the DS documentation, I fail to have a positive outlook for those poor souls.

You are only making things harder for your customers, thus loosing trust and goodwill, this is the only true change that is going to happen. And in turn this will shrink the userbase, which will force you to either raise prices or innovate on content. This is my honest oppinion. I might be wrong, but I can just tell you that I will not buy as much content as I used to and I will definately not upgrade to 4.9 either, even if I might miss out on some features, because I simply have lost trust in you as a company.

DarwinsMishap · February 2016

They already have gotten that freebie Make A Wish on the hacked sites. A fellow vendor friend of mine trolls a few to make sure his products are not listed there and has seen the Make A Wish on two different torrents.

The DRM failed to stop the encryption idea and theft from happening- though I figured that. When there's a will, or a challenge, there's a way. I will not be purchasing encryption only products, since I am not going to be using the latest version of Studio. It's a shame, since I started out in my 3D works from Daz 2. I use Studio 4.8 and the public release demo of 4.9 offline along with Poser 10. I am not a one program or other kinda person- I use what I have, and what works. This whole cloud encryption forceable issue will not have me spending money unless it's products already on my wishlist that is not encrypted. I stopped with Adobe at CS5 because I refuse to work off of a cloud only based, monthy payment sort of program. I buy something it is mine. Not 'rented'...and that's how I see this going.

Male-M3dia · February 2016

Darwins Mishap(s) said:

They already have gotten that freebie Make A Wish on the hacked sites. A fellow vendor friend of mine trolls a few to make sure his products are not listed there and has seen the Make A Wish on two different torrents.

That's the unencrypted version from DIM that is being shared.

shadowhawk1 · February 2016

Male-M3dia said:

Darwins Mishap(s) said:

They already have gotten that freebie Make A Wish on the hacked sites. A fellow vendor friend of mine trolls a few to make sure his products are not listed there and has seen the Make A Wish on two different torrents.

That's the unencrypted version from DIM that is being shared.

There was no unencrypted version of that set. It was releasedfrom the start as an Encrypted set for people that were requesting a freebie to see how the encrypted sets worked in connect.

Havos · February 2016

Male-M3dia said:

Darwins Mishap(s) said:

They already have gotten that freebie Make A Wish on the hacked sites. A fellow vendor friend of mine trolls a few to make sure his products are not listed there and has seen the Make A Wish on two different torrents.

That's the unencrypted version from DIM that is being shared.

You have mixed it up with another product that was released via DIM accidently. "Make A Wish" has only ever been available (officially) via DAZ Connect Encrypted. Look for earlier posts where someone mentions that this product was exported to hexagon (I assume the hacker that did it posted this info) in order to create an unecrypted version.

Richard Haseltine · February 2016

shadowhawk1 said:

Male-M3dia said:

Darwins Mishap(s) said:

They already have gotten that freebie Make A Wish on the hacked sites. A fellow vendor friend of mine trolls a few to make sure his products are not listed there and has seen the Make A Wish on two different torrents.

That's the unencrypted version from DIM that is being shared.

There was no unencrypted version of that set. It was releasedfrom the start as an Encrypted set for people that were requesting a freebie to see how the encrypted sets worked in connect.

But it was mainly, or entirely, un-rigged props so fairly easy to work around with no hackiong required.

Kerya · February 2016

Male-M3dia said:

Darwins Mishap(s) said:

They already have gotten that freebie Make A Wish on the hacked sites. A fellow vendor friend of mine trolls a few to make sure his products are not listed there and has seen the Make A Wish on two different torrents.

That's the unencrypted version from DIM that is being shared.

So I get an unencrypted version in DIM even if it is stated on the store page to be Encrypted only?

http://www.daz3d.com/make-a-wish-props

Makes we want to try !!!

shadowhawk1 · February 2016

Richard Haseltine said:

shadowhawk1 said:

Male-M3dia said:

Darwins Mishap(s) said:

They already have gotten that freebie Make A Wish on the hacked sites. A fellow vendor friend of mine trolls a few to make sure his products are not listed there and has seen the Make A Wish on two different torrents.

That's the unencrypted version from DIM that is being shared.

There was no unencrypted version of that set. It was releasedfrom the start as an Encrypted set for people that were requesting a freebie to see how the encrypted sets worked in connect.

But it was mainly, or entirely, un-rigged props so fairly easy to work around with no hackiong required.

I am not disputing that Richard, what I was commenting on was Male M3dia's statement that it was an unencrypted version that had been pirated, that was an incorrect assumption. One that he had already tried to say on page 38 and was corrected on.

RobotHeadArt · February 2016

ashley9803 said:

I would say that the pirates, and there would only a few dozen of them, must be slapping each other on their backs and laughing about how they have forced Daz to produce a whole new software and marketing policy to accommodate them. Then take up the challenge to break Daz encryption with a relish. Daz must be opperating in some disconnected other-world to think they have a grip on this reality.

I don't think breaking the encryption will be much of a challenge based on the context clues the developers have left in their posts. What will be a challenge will be how DAZ will patch and maintain the various versions of DAZ Studio going forward. If the encryption workarounds are published after the next version of DAZ Studio comes out, will DAZ back port fixes to 4.9? They had mentioned when they started development that everything was originally going to be encrypted to reduce the amount of testing they have to do. Well, now they'd have to test every version of DAZ Studio after 4.9 into the future whenever they have a client breaking change to encrypted content/Connect. Either that or force people to upgrade to the latest version of DAZ Studio if they want their content again.

shadowhawk1 · February 2016

Kerya said:

Male-M3dia said:

Darwins Mishap(s) said:

They already have gotten that freebie Make A Wish on the hacked sites. A fellow vendor friend of mine trolls a few to make sure his products are not listed there and has seen the Make A Wish on two different torrents.

That's the unencrypted version from DIM that is being shared.

So I get an unencrypted version in DIM even if it is stated on the store page to be Encrypted only?

http://www.daz3d.com/make-a-wish-props

Makes we want to try !!!

Unfortunately its not true, Male M3dia probably has it confused with another set. This set was modified in Hexigon so that it could be pirated.

Richard Haseltine · February 2016

shadowhawk1 said:

Richard Haseltine said:

shadowhawk1 said:

Male-M3dia said:

Darwins Mishap(s) said:

They already have gotten that freebie Make A Wish on the hacked sites. A fellow vendor friend of mine trolls a few to make sure his products are not listed there and has seen the Make A Wish on two different torrents.

That's the unencrypted version from DIM that is being shared.

There was no unencrypted version of that set. It was releasedfrom the start as an Encrypted set for people that were requesting a freebie to see how the encrypted sets worked in connect.

But it was mainly, or entirely, un-rigged props so fairly easy to work around with no hackiong required.

I am not disputing that Richard, what I was commenting on was Male M3dia's statement that it was an unencrypted version that had been pirated, that was an incorrect assumption.

Yes, I was posting to correct the original assertion not to dispute your reply - sorry.

Kerya · February 2016

shadowhawk1 said:

Kerya said:

Male-M3dia said:

Darwins Mishap(s) said:

They already have gotten that freebie Make A Wish on the hacked sites. A fellow vendor friend of mine trolls a few to make sure his products are not listed there and has seen the Make A Wish on two different torrents.

That's the unencrypted version from DIM that is being shared.

So I get an unencrypted version in DIM even if it is stated on the store page to be Encrypted only?

http://www.daz3d.com/make-a-wish-props

Makes we want to try !!!

Unfortunately its not true, Male M3dia probably has it confused with another set. This set was modified in Hexigon so that it could be pirated.

Sniffffff

shadowhawk1 · February 2016

Richard Haseltine said:

They already have gotten that freebie Make A Wish on the hacked sites. A fellow vendor friend of mine trolls a few to make sure his products are not listed there and has seen the Make A Wish on two different torrents.

That's the unencrypted version from DIM that is being shared.

There was no unencrypted version of that set. It was releasedfrom the start as an Encrypted set for people that were requesting a freebie to see how the encrypted sets worked in connect.

But it was mainly, or entirely, un-rigged props so fairly easy to work around with no hackiong required.

I am not disputing that Richard, what I was commenting on was Male M3dia's statement that it was an unencrypted version that had been pirated, that was an incorrect assumption.

Yes, I was posting to correct the original assertion not to dispute your reply - sorry.

OK, I read it a different way, my mistake. I is interesting that this is the second time that he has tried to assert that the set was offered unencrypted and the second time you have commented that that is not true.

shadowhawk1 · February 2016

Kerya said:

shadowhawk1 said:

Kerya said:

Male-M3dia said:

Darwins Mishap(s) said:

They already have gotten that freebie Make A Wish on the hacked sites. A fellow vendor friend of mine trolls a few to make sure his products are not listed there and has seen the Make A Wish on two different torrents.

That's the unencrypted version from DIM that is being shared.

So I get an unencrypted version in DIM even if it is stated on the store page to be Encrypted only?

http://www.daz3d.com/make-a-wish-props

Makes we want to try !!!

Unfortunately its not true, Male M3dia probably has it confused with another set. This set was modified in Hexigon so that it could be pirated.

Sniffffff

{{Hug}} I feel your pain as well.

Kerya · February 2016

shadowhawk1 said:

Kerya said:

shadowhawk1 said:

Kerya said:

Male-M3dia said:

Darwins Mishap(s) said:

They already have gotten that freebie Make A Wish on the hacked sites. A fellow vendor friend of mine trolls a few to make sure his products are not listed there and has seen the Make A Wish on two different torrents.

That's the unencrypted version from DIM that is being shared.

So I get an unencrypted version in DIM even if it is stated on the store page to be Encrypted only?

http://www.daz3d.com/make-a-wish-props

Makes we want to try !!!

Unfortunately its not true, Male M3dia probably has it confused with another set. This set was modified in Hexigon so that it could be pirated.

Sniffffff

{{Hug}} I feel your pain as well.

Oh - I just had a brilliant idea for a test - offer this as Encrypted Daz Connect AND as DIM - and watch what people are downloading - the Easy install (uhm ...) with Connect or the "I am sorting my content myself" way.

(Entirely unselfish idea, no, I don't need the Make a wish pretties, I don't, I don't ... uhm)

shadowhawk1 · February 2016

Kerya said:

shadowhawk1 said:

Kerya said:

shadowhawk1 said:

Kerya said:

Male-M3dia said:

Darwins Mishap(s) said:

They already have gotten that freebie Make A Wish on the hacked sites. A fellow vendor friend of mine trolls a few to make sure his products are not listed there and has seen the Make A Wish on two different torrents.

That's the unencrypted version from DIM that is being shared.

So I get an unencrypted version in DIM even if it is stated on the store page to be Encrypted only?

http://www.daz3d.com/make-a-wish-props

Makes we want to try !!!

Unfortunately its not true, Male M3dia probably has it confused with another set. This set was modified in Hexigon so that it could be pirated.

Sniffffff

{{Hug}} I feel your pain as well.

Oh - I just had a brilliant idea for a test - offer this as Encrypted Daz Connect AND as DIM - and watch what people are downloading - the Easy install (uhm ...) with Connect or the "I am sorting my content myself" way.

(Entirely unselfish idea, no, I don't need the Make a wish pretties, I don't, I don't ... uhm)

Sounds like a great idea to me.

thd777 · February 2016

shadowhawk1 said:

Kerya said:

Oh - I just had a brilliant idea for a test - offer this as Encrypted Daz Connect AND as DIM - and watch what people are downloading - the Easy install (uhm ...) with Connect or the "I am sorting my content myself" way.

(Entirely unselfish idea, no, I don't need the Make a wish pretties, I don't, I don't ... uhm)

Sounds like a great idea to me.

No need for that. Pretty much everything in the store that is not encrypted can already be downloaded in both ways. So they have plenty of opportunity to see what people use/prefer. I still have most of my stuff in the content library format, but I am experimenting with the Connect tab and so far I like what I see. Works quite well for me. Once some of the additional tweaks that are mentioned in the first post are incormporated I might move all my Genesis 2 and 3 stuff over to connect. We will see.

Ciao

TD

Petercat · February 2016

Kerya said:

Oh - I just had a brilliant idea for a test - offer this as Encrypted Daz Connect AND as DIM - and watch what people are downloading - the Easy install (uhm ...) with Connect or the "I am sorting my content myself" way.

(Entirely unselfish idea, no, I don't need the Make a wish pretties, I don't, I don't ... uhm)

Or they could wait and offer it unencrypted a month later add see who snaps it up.

Those would be the sales lost due to encryption.

If they would do that with the Trenchcoat, I guarantee at least one sale!

(I know, I'm beating a dead horse here, but dammit, that horse deserves a beating!)

Notifications

You've been heard. Response re: 4.9 and Encryption

Comments

Adding to Cart…