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You've been heard. Response re: 4.9 and Encryption

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  • TesseractSpaceTesseractSpace Posts: 1,582
    edited February 2016
    lx said:
    Taozen said:
    lx said:
    Taozen said:

    Wonder if the customer IDs can tell how many costumers they have (some companies do not start at 0 with their numbers, to look bigger). Mine is 98xxx9 (close to 1.000.000), I signed up in 2008.

    You can find it in your product library, select an item, then right click on the page in the right pane and get the page source, scroll down about 180 lines.

    Probably not, considering that'd only tell you how many customers they have had at best. Also I realised my earlier '2000 products thing doesn't really matter, since that was a lot fewer orders (probably a few hundred orders though in 2015.)

    Well if you could find some of the first customers and then some of the newest, and perhaps a range in between you might get an idea - if the numbers aren't manipulated in some way.

    Well assuming Chohole has been here forever and has a 4 figure number, and I'm recent and my number is higher than any of yours, I'd say your theory is accurate. It doesn't tell us how many of us are actually actively buying over say the past few months, though.

    Given I couldn't do any 3d art for months recently due to injury, I didn't buy for a while except really exceptional sales. But my history fluctuates between lots of purchases and lulls where I'm too broke or otherwise unable to purchase.  I've got a four digit number though, so my buying is spread out over many years. I doubt I've hit the high sales amounts that some have, but I do what I can.

    Post edited by TesseractSpace on
  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996
    edited February 2016

    A few of you are in the higher thousands, but Subtropic Pixel is just over 1000 o.o

     

    I bet Users 1-5 or so are test accounts or something really boring like that.

    Post edited by lx_2807502 on
  • Subtropic PixelSubtropic Pixel Posts: 2,388
    edited February 2016
    icecrmn said:
    Taozen said:

     

    icecrmn said:

    Is it the same one I see when I mouse over your username ?

    Where? Doesn't work here in the forum for me.

    I'm on firefox, when I mouse over your username, on the bottom left side of the browser I see the link to your profile 

    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/profile/983889/Taozen

    here is mine

    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/profile/2534814/icecrmn

    Wow, mine is pretty low.  I should check to be sure I've not become mummified...

    lx said:

    A few of you are in the higher thousands, but Subtropic Pixel is just over 1000 o.o

    Yeah, it's more like a year than an account/customer number.  The lower the number, the less BC or AD makes a difference, huh?

    My customer number may be mummified, but I assure you, I'm not (because I just checked)!  laugh

    Post edited by Subtropic Pixel on
  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715
    Havos said:
    wsterdan said:
    lx said:
    wsterdan said:
    lx said:
    wsterdan said:
    Havos said:

    No it doesn't. No one claimed to represent the majority. People said that "they're only a minority" insinuating that anyone not complaining approves, which is faulty logic.

    You're absolutly correct, and my apologies.

    I'd actually tried to delete or edit the post a second after I hit "POST COMMENT" but the forum wouldn't let me. 

    I'd just did a quick "catch-up" of the thread (and the others) too close to bedtime and after hundreds of posts some of the phrases blurred together:

    What everyone in the forums can dislike the majority who aren't vocal may like.

    ...it also suggests the vocal minority may be a majority on a long enough timeline since there are so many long term members included there...

    There are a small number of posters expressing support; the majority seem against

    Again, my apologies.

    -- Walt Sterdan

    All good; just that as you may have read it's been suggested that a vocal minority means that the majority is approving (if they don't say "no," they mean "yes") which kind of puts me on edge.

    Especially since the follow up response is often "so you think the silent ones are all disapproving too!!" which makes my head hurt.

    Agreed; I think maybe the best we can assume about the "silent majority' isn't that they don't approve or disapprove, but that they don't feel the issue is worth commenting on... yet. ;-)

    -- Walt Sterdan

    I don't think we can even assume that, we can in fact assume nothing at all about them

    +1

    I've been on the forums, active for a year or so; I keep seeing folks I've never seen before since 4.9; out of curiosity I check how long they've been a memeber... A surprising number of them are long-term members.

    Some at least are taking the trouble to post; previous experience of issues that are related to customer service and unhappy customer suggests some will just move on.

    But we can't assume anything, and it could even be dangerous for Daz to do so.

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715
    Subtropic Pixel said:
    icecrmn said:
    Taozen said:

     

    icecrmn said:

    Is it the same one I see when I mouse over your username ?

    Where? Doesn't work here in the forum for me.

    I'm on firefox, when I mouse over your username, on the bottom left side of the browser I see the link to your profile 

    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/profile/983889/Taozen

    here is mine

    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/profile/2534814/icecrmn

    Wow, mine is pretty low.  I should check to be sure I've not become mummified...

    lx said:

    A few of you are in the higher thousands, but Subtropic Pixel is just over 1000 o.o

    Yeah, it's more like a year than an account/customer number.  The lower the number, the less BC or AD makes a difference, huh?

    My customer number may be mummified, but I assure you, I'm not (because I just checked)!  laugh

    "I checked"

    Way too much info. cheeky

  • TesseractSpaceTesseractSpace Posts: 1,582
    I really want to make an 'over 9000' joke about my number but never really understood the context of those other than it being some reference to Dragon Ball Z.
  • tl155180tl155180 Posts: 994
    edited February 2016

    How much do you reckon you'd have to spend in the Daz store each month for your opinion to start to matter to them?

    I was previously spending around $100+ per month (sometimes a lot more), but now thats going to drop to either zero, or close to zero as I let my PC+ membership expire in a couple of weeks.

    I don't suppose they'll miss my contribution much, but it'll be fun getting the inevitable customer survey that follows laugh

    Post edited by tl155180 on
  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996
    tl155180 said:

    How much do you reckon you'd have to spend in the Daz store each month for your opinion to start to matter to them?

    I was previously spending around $100+ per month (sometimes a lot more), but now thats going to drop to either zero, or close to zero as I let my PC+ membership expire in a couple of weeks.

    I don't suppose they'll miss my contribution much, but it'll be fun getting the inevitable customer survey that follows laugh

    I was also spending a few hundred a month since I joined, but that's dribbled off to very little more recently. There've been a few really cool offers over the past couple of weeks too that I passed over simply because it hasn't felt as fun to shop here lately.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,085

    Well, either people are actually going to stop shopping, or we're full of hot air. We'll find out in a month or two.

     

  • tl155180tl155180 Posts: 994
    edited February 2016
    timmins.william said:

    Well, either people are actually going to stop shopping, or we're full of hot air. We'll find out in a month or two.

     

    Well I can tell you that I'm definitely not full of hot air (in fact, its freezing in here!). I don't wish to shop at a place that has expressed such little regard for my opinion. So my spending, pitiful as it was, will cease.

    There is only 1 product that I'll consider getting now and thats Glute Control for G3F by Zev0 when it comes out - but thats only as long as its not encrypted.

    However, even if some people put their money where their mouth is and stop shopping I doubt it'll produce a u-turn from Daz, so its likely we'll never really know.

    Post edited by tl155180 on
  • frank0314frank0314 Posts: 14,707
    edited February 2016
    tl155180 said:
    timmins.william said:

    Well, either people are actually going to stop shopping, or we're full of hot air. We'll find out in a month or two.

     

    Well I can tell you that I'm definitely not full of hot air (in fact, its freezing in here!). I don't wish to shop at a place that has expressed such little regard for my opinion. So my spending, pitiful as it was, will cease.

    There is only 1 product that I'll consider getting now and thats Glute Control for G3F by Zev0 when it comes out - but thats only as long as its not encrypted.

    However, even if some people put their money where their mouth is and stop shopping I doubt it'll produce a u-turn from Daz, so its likely we'll never really know.

    They have hundreds of thousands opions to consider. It's gonna take a customer survey to see the real numbers and opinions.

    Post edited by frank0314 on
  • tl155180tl155180 Posts: 994
    frank0314 said:
    tl155180 said:
    timmins.william said:

    Well, either people are actually going to stop shopping, or we're full of hot air. We'll find out in a month or two.

     

    Well I can tell you that I'm definitely not full of hot air (in fact, its freezing in here!). I don't wish to shop at a place that has expressed such little regard for my opinion. So my spending, pitiful as it was, will cease.

    There is only 1 product that I'll consider getting now and thats Glute Control for G3F by Zev0 when it comes out - but thats only as long as its not encrypted.

    However, even if some people put their money where their mouth is and stop shopping I doubt it'll produce a u-turn from Daz, so its likely we'll never really know.

    They have hundreds of thousands opions to consider. It's gonna take a customer survey to see the real numbers and opinions.

    Yes, thats very true. But I was referring more to customer service responses like when Daz_steve said that we're just "the vocal minority who want to have their feelings hurt". I know he later retracted the comment and apologised but it gave a very revealing insight into how people at Daz probably really feel about us behind the scenes.

  • IceCrMnIceCrMn Posts: 2,319

    I have no intention what so ever to stop shopping here. 

    I've had real life issues to deal with recently that have had an impact on the art budget, but my spending here has had nothing to do with encryption or the new downloader.

    The tax returns are going to be available this coming week, so I plan to go on a shopping spree.

    I don't care if some of the items are encrypted. I already know that I can use them just like any other item. So that is completely irrelevant to me. I'm buying items for use in DS and everything I want is advertised to work in DS. I have no reason to believe that it won't. 

    There is only 1 item I want from another brokerage. Everything else I want is from the Daz store.

  • DAZ_JonDAZ_Jon Posts: 582
    lx said:

    A few of you are in the higher thousands, but Subtropic Pixel is just over 1000 o.o

     

    I bet Users 1-5 or so are test accounts or something really boring like that.

    The IDs on the forums aren't your IDs on the store. They are in the same ballpark, but not directly correlated. And, especially since we use an opensource platform for our store that is a well known PHP / MySQL, the IDs start at 1 and increment 1 at a time up to where we are today. So in terms of registered users, we're closing in on the 3 million mark.

  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996
    DAZ_Jon said:
    lx said:

    A few of you are in the higher thousands, but Subtropic Pixel is just over 1000 o.o

     

    I bet Users 1-5 or so are test accounts or something really boring like that.

    The IDs on the forums aren't your IDs on the store. They are in the same ballpark, but not directly correlated. And, especially since we use an opensource platform for our store that is a well known PHP / MySQL, the IDs start at 1 and increment 1 at a time up to where we are today. So in terms of registered users, we're closing in on the 3 million mark.

    But how many of those are currently active ;o all the fun numbers are hidden away.

    Asking this question again because I'm still hoping for an official answer:

    Why would holding initial purchases on a card for verification (with a very clear warning informing what is happening, unlike some other sites) not be a good way to cut down on fraud?

  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,574

    There is a fair gap between downloaders and actually users. I can not speak for DAZ, but from my own experience we have had some 6-7 million people download our apps, but around 50,000 actually play them on any given day.

  • Fragg1960Fragg1960 Posts: 363
    icecrmn said:

    I have no intention what so ever to stop shopping here. 

    I've had real life issues to deal with recently that have had an impact on the art budget, but my spending here has had nothing to do with encryption or the new downloader.

    The tax returns are going to be available this coming week, so I plan to go on a shopping spree.

    I don't care if some of the items are encrypted. I already know that I can use them just like any other item. So that is completely irrelevant to me. I'm buying items for use in DS and everything I want is advertised to work in DS. I have no reason to believe that it won't. 

    There is only 1 item I want from another brokerage. Everything else I want is from the Daz store.

    The only statement missing from the above post is, "I, for one, welcome our new alien overlords."  Don't get upset--just messing with you.wink

  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996
    Havos said:

    There is a fair gap between downloaders and actually users. I can not speak for DAZ, but from my own experience we have had some 6-7 million people download our apps, but around 50,000 actually play them on any given day.

    That sort of percentage adds a bit more weight to our Daz active user guess too~

     

    Also, on the not buying things front - speaking only for myself, I'm not saying "I will not buy anything ever!" or anything like that, just that I haven't felt like it's much fun to do so lately and therefore haven't really bought much (or even bothered to download the freebies.) I'm not trying to take a stance on anything to prove a point.

  • IceCrMnIceCrMn Posts: 2,319
    Fragg1960 said:
    icecrmn said:

    I have no intention what so ever to stop shopping here. 

    I've had real life issues to deal with recently that have had an impact on the art budget, but my spending here has had nothing to do with encryption or the new downloader.

    The tax returns are going to be available this coming week, so I plan to go on a shopping spree.

    I don't care if some of the items are encrypted. I already know that I can use them just like any other item. So that is completely irrelevant to me. I'm buying items for use in DS and everything I want is advertised to work in DS. I have no reason to believe that it won't. 

    There is only 1 item I want from another brokerage. Everything else I want is from the Daz store.

    The only statement missing from the above post is, "I, for one, welcome our new alien overlords."  Don't get upset--just messing with you.wink

    none taken.

    everyone else is posting their "well I'm not buying DRM anything"  and threatening to shop elsewhere. 

    So I posted my "I'm not going anywhere" 

    consensus has it that if I don't then I am agreeing with their point of view, even if I don't.

    So now we are all stuck posting the same thing over and over for hundreds of pages.

  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,574
    lx said:
    Havos said:

    There is a fair gap between downloaders and actually users. I can not speak for DAZ, but from my own experience we have had some 6-7 million people download our apps, but around 50,000 actually play them on any given day.

    That sort of percentage adds a bit more weight to our Daz active user guess too~

     

    Also, on the not buying things front - speaking only for myself, I'm not saying "I will not buy anything ever!" or anything like that, just that I haven't felt like it's much fun to do so lately and therefore haven't really bought much (or even bothered to download the freebies.) I'm not trying to take a stance on anything to prove a point.

    Like DAZ, my apps are mostly free, however there is a big difference between users and shoppers. My figure of 50K was just for a given day, over a year it will be closer to half a million unique players or more. Our 20K DAZ estimate based on the order list was about shoppers, not players of a free app, a somewhat different, and probably far lower number.

  • TesseractSpaceTesseractSpace Posts: 1,582
    icecrmn said:
    Fragg1960 said:
    icecrmn said:

    I have no intention what so ever to stop shopping here. 

    I've had real life issues to deal with recently that have had an impact on the art budget, but my spending here has had nothing to do with encryption or the new downloader.

    The tax returns are going to be available this coming week, so I plan to go on a shopping spree.

    I don't care if some of the items are encrypted. I already know that I can use them just like any other item. So that is completely irrelevant to me. I'm buying items for use in DS and everything I want is advertised to work in DS. I have no reason to believe that it won't. 

    There is only 1 item I want from another brokerage. Everything else I want is from the Daz store.

    The only statement missing from the above post is, "I, for one, welcome our new alien overlords."  Don't get upset--just messing with you.wink

    none taken.

    everyone else is posting their "well I'm not buying DRM anything"  and threatening to shop elsewhere. 

    So I posted my "I'm not going anywhere" 

    consensus has it that if I don't then I am agreeing with their point of view, even if I don't.

    So now we are all stuck posting the same thing over and over for hundreds of pages.

    Pretty much. Personally I think DAZ would be better served by a customer survey and a more decisive stance afterward. Right now we have to keep making our points over and over so we don't let silence speak for us.

  • tl155180tl155180 Posts: 994

    What I find strange is that Daz has yet to really commit to this whole idea. I mean, if DRM and Connect are so beneficial to Daz and its such a no-brainer, and they're utterly convinced that us nay-sayers are just a pathetic minority, then why are we seeing so few Connect-only products hitting the store? We've seen one or two priced items and then some enticement freebies - but thats it. Whats holding them back?

    They've already said that 4.9 did amazingly well in terms of downloads.

    Come on Daz, put your money where your mouth is and role out this plan in earnest! I'm keen to see whats gonna happen.

  • frank0314frank0314 Posts: 14,707

    Being a PA I'm happy to see Daz is actively doing something to help protect us from piracy. I know I'm a llittle tired of seeing a pack release and 10 minutes later its on a warez site. At least with the encryption it makes it a little longer.

  • TesseractSpaceTesseractSpace Posts: 1,582
    frank0314 said:

    Being a PA I'm happy to see Daz is actively doing something to help protect us from piracy. I know I'm a llittle tired of seeing a pack release and 10 minutes later its on a warez site. At least with the encryption it makes it a little longer.

    And I get annoyed seeing things I paid good money to use being made available free to those who don't care about laws and supporting the artists. 

    But once a method of circumventing DRM is discovered, like anything else it gets refined until the DRM barely hinders them at all. Given what's been seen so far it's likely rigged figures and HD morphs are likely still protected but who knows how long that'll last? The question is becoming one of not just do we accept this DRM but are we willing to accept whatever stronger and more invasive measures will be needed next?

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 107,923
    tl155180 said:

    What I find strange is that Daz has yet to really commit to this whole idea. I mean, if DRM and Connect are so beneficial to Daz and its such a no-brainer, and they're utterly convinced that us nay-sayers are just a pathetic minority, then why are we seeing so few Connect-only products hitting the store? We've seen one or two priced items and then some enticement freebies - but thats it. Whats holding them back?

    They've already said that 4.9 did amazingly well in terms of downloads.

    Come on Daz, put your money where your mouth is and role out this plan in earnest! I'm keen to see whats gonna happen.

    They want, as far as I can tell, to make sure people have a chance to get to know the actual Connect - especially those who don't comment in the forums - and then to run some meaningful test releases and see how those go. They are not, despite what has been said heer, absolutely set on a course - which is why changes (albeit not adequate changes for all users) have already been made in the beta and subsequently.

  • BarubaryBarubary Posts: 1,230
    edited February 2016
    frank0314 said:

    We had the same upheaval when Daz went to all packs being in zip format. Have the same with DIM. Had the same with Genesis replacing V4-M4. I see a pattern here. You can't make everyone happy.

    Yeah, Genesis replacing V4 / M4 was quite an upheaval, too. I remeber it well. Many were afraid that this would begin a split in the 3D world between Poser and DAZ and that DAZ would, in the long run, move away from Poser.

    Of course, as DAZ and many DAZ fans insisted, this was nothing but fear mongering and conspiracy theories. DAZ was comitted to their Poser users as much as ever.

    This was, in fact, my own position back then.

     

    Maybe, if we closely examine the situation today, we need to ethink how the terms 'fear mongering and conspiracy theories'.

    Post edited by Barubary on
  • frogimusfrogimus Posts: 200

    Well, the Daz store lost reaping my tax return this year, on top of a massive return of eligible product. I looked on the store enough this week to use my PC coupons. I almost held them for a decent sale, but the way sales are structured now i decided to just find the cheapest things i had use for and get it over with.

    If there are many like me, i'm sure the other markets are loving the inreased business.

  • TesseractSpaceTesseractSpace Posts: 1,582
    Richard Haseltine said:
    tl155180 said:

    What I find strange is that Daz has yet to really commit to this whole idea. I mean, if DRM and Connect are so beneficial to Daz and its such a no-brainer, and they're utterly convinced that us nay-sayers are just a pathetic minority, then why are we seeing so few Connect-only products hitting the store? We've seen one or two priced items and then some enticement freebies - but thats it. Whats holding them back?

    They've already said that 4.9 did amazingly well in terms of downloads.

    Come on Daz, put your money where your mouth is and role out this plan in earnest! I'm keen to see whats gonna happen.

    They want, as far as I can tell, to make sure people have a chance to get to know the actual Connect - especially those who don't comment in the forums - and then to run some meaningful test releases and see how those go. They are not, despite what has been said heer, absolutely set on a course - which is why changes (albeit not adequate changes for all users) have already been made in the beta and subsequently.

    I think the problem we're seeing with the current approach is that Connect and Encryption based DRM are being confused at several points. 

    I'm at least aware that Connect is not the same as the DRM (and in fact the two could have been entirely separate had DAZ wanted. Not saying it would have been easy or even a good idea, but DRM encrypted content could have been implemented separately from Connect and vice versa.) 

    I've seen a few attempts to defend DRM by talking about how convenient and easy Connect is, which is really answering a different question.

    (Another fun bit, if two users share a computer best make sure you're logged in to the correct account before going offline as there's obviously no way to switch once away from the internet. I get that two users can't share libraries, but it's seeming like they'd also need their own separate full install of Studio which I haven't tried yet but I'm concerned could cause conflicts. But if the wrong person logged in last then your library is at least difficult to use, and with encrypted content impossible. I suppose being away from internet is considered extremely unusual these days but it does still happen, one reason Microsoft had to back down from plans for an always online Xbox One.)

  • fixmypcmikefixmypcmike Posts: 19,683
    TesseractSpace said:
     

    (Another fun bit, if two users share a computer best make sure you're logged in to the correct account before going offline as there's obviously no way to switch once away from the internet. I get that two users can't share libraries, but it's seeming like they'd also need their own separate full install of Studio which I haven't tried yet but I'm concerned could cause conflicts. But if the wrong person logged in last then your library is at least difficult to use, and with encrypted content impossible. I suppose being away from internet is considered extremely unusual these days but it does still happen, one reason Microsoft had to back down from plans for an always online Xbox One.)

    I don't have two accounts to try it with, but offline account switching is listed in the change log as being part of the current release.

  • TesseractSpaceTesseractSpace Posts: 1,582
    Fixmypcmike said:
    TesseractSpace said:
     

    (Another fun bit, if two users share a computer best make sure you're logged in to the correct account before going offline as there's obviously no way to switch once away from the internet. I get that two users can't share libraries, but it's seeming like they'd also need their own separate full install of Studio which I haven't tried yet but I'm concerned could cause conflicts. But if the wrong person logged in last then your library is at least difficult to use, and with encrypted content impossible. I suppose being away from internet is considered extremely unusual these days but it does still happen, one reason Microsoft had to back down from plans for an always online Xbox One.)

    I don't have two accounts to try it with, but offline account switching is listed in the change log as being part of the current release.

    Just tried it. It works if you have Studio running when you press the button to go offline, but if you close Studio while logged in to one account, I'm not finding away to switch without being online to login.

This discussion has been closed.