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Thanks I did and it had no easily disernable effect. If I'm going to jump through two days of hoops before I come up with the with combination of iRay PBR settings to make the renders I have done reasonable fascimiles of what the DAZ Store ad copy promises then DAZ 3D has problems that need addressed with their production methods. If they are routinely creating textures in an computer 3D environment that is flooded with excessive light then what we get when we try to use those textures in a situation with natural light from an HDRI is an excessive dark character.
I don't know how DAZ Studio and these other folks are getting the paler renders they are using in their ad copy but they must be massively flooding their scenes with too much light. In fact I am rendering the Snow Flake texture now and that has only make me realize more how extremely dark this Killian iRay texture is rendering and if you look at the ad copy in the DAZ Store Killian is not near that so dark. If fact you'd call him average cafe au lait with extra au lait pale. My renders of Killian look like a person evolved to live in the tropics. Fine if that's what DAZ's ad copy was portray but it was not.
So then I try the Eddie texture set...it is not iRay but I apply the DAZ iRay Uberbase and it's much more reasonable. It has olive / orange undertones but much closer to how Killian is rendered in the DAZ Store ad copy. The nice iRay reaction of the skin to the light source is mostly missing though (or maybe I need to adjust the camera as they seem somewhat blurred). Still, I suppose beggars can't be choosers.
http://www.daz3d.com/killian-for-the-guy-7
LOL, that's not how my renders are turning out but I'm really liking the iRay skin properties are showing up in the reflectivity and glossiness and such. Compare to my Girl 7 rendered using Brooklyn HD texture and morphed Genesis 3 using Killian texture and then the Eddie Guy 7 HD texture. All DAZ Store / DAZ Studio presets with icon images that approximate what we should expect from the preset.
Anyway, I was prepared to go with a pale Eddie (Guy 7 HD) texture even if it had olive and orange base tones as I only mess with DAZ occasionally but the release of Snow Flake has made me happy and make that unneeded at the same time. Now I have a iRay texture set for Genesis 3 that has a pink tonal basis and actually looks like the ad copy in the DAZ Store. I need to ask the Snow Flake author if they will make a Genesis 3 male texture set based on the Snow Flake texture set and based on a female too even if male since I prefer to use fibre mesh eyebrows and LAMH. Oh, and if they might consider adding a face option for Snow Flake female with no make-up at all. Then I will have no worries about different men's hair growth patterns being permanently embedded in a base texture set and I can add 'musculenizing male scars and wrinkles and such' as makes sense for the character's work background and age. LOL, we talentless people demand a broader range of products.
Hi Cath... I believe they meant not colour - still greyscale, but higher precision. 16/32 bit float.
http://what-when-how.com/zbrush-character-creation-advanced-digital-sculpting/generating-displacement-maps-normal-maps-displacement-maps-maya-and-decimation-master-zbrush-character-creation/
MCasual had an old thread with a demonstration of the 256-level-grayscale vs a proper 16bit displacement:
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/29672/tip-improve-bump-and-displacement-renders-by-using-16-bit-versions-of-your-maps
There are HDRIs and HDRIs. Many HDRIs _are_ shot too dark in and out of themselves.
It's also important to be using proper tonemapper camera settings. Iray does well to emulate the physical camera, so just set it up the way you'd shoot your scene, and use a "white" sphere to see if the HDRI is okay or under-ranged - the "white" shouldn't be full-on (1,1,1) white, though, that would be very unrealistic.
Straight from the Iray dev blog:
Source: http://blog.irayrender.com/post/14310848190/physically-plausible-scene-setup
When you find the "right" HDRI, use it as your environment to fix character mats in.
Or - my trick - use the Sunny 16 rule, use Iray built-in Sun-Sky, but remove the DAZ default "SS Multiplier": set it to 1 instead of 0.1. This creates a physically plausible environment. I don't have many Iray skin presets, but the ones that come with DS fall apart on this "perfect sunny day" stage. They don't follow the rules above.
Well, I haven't read EVERY single post on the dev forums, but it is my recollection.
Are you listing the whole memory usage in Iray, so you see a 48MB difference, but no idea on how much was the usage of the image? And what was the resolution of the image? For the values to make sense, we need to know. Was that the only image in use, and only in that one channel? I'm going to assume it was, as it wouldn't be a really good test otherwise.
If that was a 4k x 4k image, so that in uncompressed format, it took up 64MB (32-bpp=4 bytes/pixel, 16MP * 4 bytes/pixel = 64MB) and it dropped by 48MB to 16MB, then it looks like either they've changed the behavior, or I was misinformed.
As for how much sense either makes, it's a question of compression algorithms (having to choose multi-channel vs. single channel) to improve compression OR using a single algorithm and promoting the image at load time (faster at rendertime, slower at load.)
It may even be subject to the speed/memory optimization setting. But it does look like (if my assumptions on your test are correct) that IF the setting isn't affecting it, then the nVidia dev I spoke with misinformed me....or maybe was working from old design info.
If it's now using greyscale images internally where appropos, that's great. Makes for smaller footprint, though it will cost a little render speed. If it's tied to the speed/memory option setting, even better.
(edit: I'll try to run a test tonight to see if the speed/memory setting affects this.)
Well the HDRI environment I'm using are done reasonably. You've confirmed what I thought though about DAZ and PA and others flooding their renders with excessive light.
You tips are helpful too though and I will copy them. eg the whites on clothing are excessive and make the surrounding evironment look darker than it really is in contrast.
The only 32bit floating point that iray create and use is for HDRI enviorment and when you render with Canvases , so you may hear the truth , each program that use iray do things slightly different , Uberiray shader too.. when you make the test make sure you use Nvidia iray MDL block shader and Uberiray for comparison so you will see the truth . The algorithms already changed in iray from the first release so things are processed different way , I was a bit surprised since no other unbiased render engine or not do this as it would be big waste of Memory , well maybe interactive do since it use 9 times more VRAM than photoreal
Any way people should not change the workflow in creating maps , texturing rules should not change regardless what the engine do internal or not , don't you agree ? since there is not need for that .
Well, that's the problem because the results between a texture set created for iRay versus a texture set created for 3Delight with Ueberbase iRay applied are very inconsistant. Anyway, I'm done talking about it, it's not like I'm the only one that has noticed so DAZ 3D knows about this and so DAZ 3D either make adjustments between them to make them consistant or they don't. It's the major reason why alot of DAZ users refuse to use iRay.
Hi , no that was different story nothing to do with that , perfect displacement are at 32bit float , everyone know it , but in DS only normal map is not compressed everything else is , that what DAZ said so I still wonder if the displacement get compressed or not as no way to test it , and I did a lot of tests with displacement maps in iray and everything was working just right the way it should . If it was compressed there would be some issues . and as I said the 32bit RGB is only created with HDRI environment maps to collect the information about the luminosity of the scene . But no one documentation said it is converting jpg into as that make no sense as the map will have exactly the same amount of information as it was in jpg before converting , but iray may do it for internal way of calculations , I don't know .. however if that was this way there will be info about. And even if it don't change anything in my workflow or yours . So keep doing the stuff the way you doing and forget about . You have a lot in your cup already to think about hahahahaha
I have no time for arguing on subjects that don't really matter as I have work to do and a lot .. so have fun I will drop in later
You're welcome. Not sure about "excessive light" per se: sometimes it may be excessive, but sometimes too little. But basically, if the tonemapper settings stay the same for an interior render light set and for a daylight outdoor scene light set, then something is definitely wrong.
I never saw different _texture_maps_ prepared for Iray and 3Delight materials of the product. That the presets for Iray and 3Delight _look_ different - now this is a given. I tried matching some stuff myself recently. It gets quite difficult when SSS becomes involved because the algorithms (and hence params) are different.
The problem is in the material settings that make it so dark , all base figures from DAZ are too dark (tan ) I mentioned it to DAZ a time ago , when I render them with my proper HDRI maps for lighting with exact accuracy they looks like back from vacation in Hawaii , 2 times darker as they should . You need to use double more light to make them looks normal as they should , it is wrong default
I will show you letter the difference when I am back and there is easy way to fix it . The Tone-mping should be adjusted exactly to the HDRI environment you using , as each HDRI maps have own values , if the values does not correspond with the maps you getting wrong result of the light and wrong result of the HDR in your scene
People always say that... as if the textures were different. If you are going to complain, at least complain correctly.
I understood what she said. Anyway, DAZ 3D sort of has a problematic thing here as if you're going to use PBR with need to stick with the scientific sort of way of doing PBR but that's creating the too dark renders we see, so something needs adjusting. I think DAZ 3D will get things such that they match reasonably close to the ad copy eventually with iRay presets and HDLI. An HDLI image with a lot of clouds should like like someone in the shade, not like they are using rub-on tanning gel. Maybe they need more presets - for 'natural' lighting/camera for iRay with HDLI and one for DAZ Store ad copy style artifical lighting at least for iRay shaders. 3DL seems to not be affected so much by those things.
I'm far from expert, I am consumer that reads a little bit sometimes of these things. And a consumer that sees ad copy isn't matching too well with my results. The only reason I prefer PBR is because it's scientific and reproducable without 'artistic ability' for people like myself that have like zero interest in learning the render arcana of 5 different engines. Simply create a render UI control that works like a consumer camera and underneath that UI a profession camera UI. For me I'm using my real consumer 10 year old Panasonic camera settings of Portrait, Portrait (Soft Skin), Sports, Landscape, and all those things consumer camera presets of that camera rather than access the profession photographer camera settings, so color me not even a camera expert or interested in becoming one, but a consumer camera user. And I'd like DAZ Studio Render Engine that had a front end UI like one of those consumer cameras, with a profession camera UI underneath that, and as a back end to those UIs that you changed according the how the texture set was created (3DL, iRay, Cycles) and those did the magic according to the consumer/professional camera setting chosen in the UI in the rendering of the scene. The results then should easily be such that they look like more like ad copy expectations. DAZ 3D can add to that an ability to use the mouse like a camera viewfinder in your vieport scene & give you an UI that is emulating a consumer Point & Shot camera. Now how cool and how easy is that for someone like me that is a 3D novice?
I'm not doing DAZ for a desire to be technically expert on all this archana but to try and create interesting art work. I'm pleased with the way DAZ Studio is developing but I think it still needs to be much more consumer oriented then it is now.
We DAZ customers ought to start a feature request for DAZ to make a consumer / professional camera UI for DAZ Studio. I know more people would benefit from it and have a lot more fun in DAZ Studio.
I don't know how to do that though. At Unity 3D website they have a 'feature request' forum that such things can be added by customers and voted up by customers with accounts (there is no vote down, you simply don't vote in that case).
Look that is standard DS light , right edited materials and left original , it may look ok from the front with a lamp in the face but not on the back or sides, and it have nothing to do with the light here but wrong skin settings , the skin have high level of absorption .
Another point is HDRI light maps, for best you need as much information in the ambient area as from the sun , if there is not the right dynamics, you will get figures darker in a cloudy day as it should be as nobody shot 100 of photos to create cloudy day HDRI , even with a sunny day not much people can capture enough dynamics for proper HDRI , this process is not easy as the world does not stand still to allow you to capture enough data
also iray does not work well with 36 dynamics HDRI and need to be reduced to 28 maximum losing the info from the ambient areas needed for the right balance between the light and shadow . And I am talking from my own experiences since I have equipment to capture 36 dynamics in my HDRI but have to lower it for iray .
Edit : Eyes can play trick on you, but when you mix the 2 shader settings you getting surprised how dark they are and mostly all of them and the absorption level is higher than a wall bricks for an Caucasians skin ... and why so ? because everyone setup materials with different kind of light , a true PBR setting should work in any light but need to be calibrated from the default , what in iray is sky-sun to begin with at 28 EV dynamics .. The default tone mapping in DS are not exactly corresponding right with sky-sun but there is a reason why as setting it correctly will create artifacts on the quad poly meshes especially on the low poly one that why other unbiased render engine use triangles at higher subdivision to avoid it , so the DS Tone mapping and sky-sun is set to create less harsh more soft shadow environment like the sun behind thin cloud where the light still pass and create softer shadows .
So now you know, pass it on lol
Well I am using high quality HRDIs, the famous Pixar Studio HRDI, one at a French golf course, and then from Greg Zaal. He really is quite knowledgable and quite good.
From what you say it seems that photographic equipment, no matter how good cannot capture all the range of amibient light being reflected in the photo which of course makes sense because if the camera was perfect at that it would look for all the world to us as if we were looking out a window and not at a picture.
Maybe HRDI is not ready for prime time. Your illustration shows what I am talking about and so many others have complained about. It's not that subtle - it's as it the fellow was slathering on artificial tanning lotion or taken from a dark room and pasted into a bright scene.
As I prefer PBR I will let the PA address these shortcomings with new texture sets I hope.
The Pixar Studio yes, it is great as I checked the range also the sun was edited as the range is slightly higher than the rest and should be less however is very good, the other is ok but have lower range as usual people don't bother due to clouds that move faster and screw the HDRI so they settle for less shots than on a sunny day with less or no clouds at all but I render with the default DS light what should be at last perfect but the skin is not
I noticed the dark skin material since V7 , first I was thinking it was the light but then compared with my calibrated PBR and was sure the absorbing was too high for this skin type , it is more rubber than diffuse skin for that reason why it is so dark , if you use 1000W head lamp it looks fine so maybe the creator made the first one and then later copy and paste to the next character and the rest followed .. but it is definitely wrong and not the correct default and far away from PBR and increasing light will screw the rest of your scene and all correct materials you have on other materials.. but who is listening .. nobody
people tend to focus what is in front when the light shine on but nobody rotate to see how it looks in the shadow, not just with the skin but also with environments like building and other stuff what usually looks like after heavy rain on the angle , producers need definitely focus more on it and deliver complete work or not at all .
If I'm understanding what you're asking for, which is a way to tweak settings while a render is in progress, you already can do this. There is a "hidden" pane on the left side of the render window that you can use to adjust a number of factors including gamma.
No, go look at your consumer camera's UI and take a picture after configuring it using Point-n-Shoot via the camera viewfinder and the picture taking button. Pretty simple actually. Settings for nighttime, fireworks, landscapes, sports, portraits, 'soft' portraits, children playing, baby, and macros and other common amateur photo taking situations. One thing about consumer devices is you don't hide thing that make things easier on them.
Tone mapping is actually what you find under Manual setting on the physical camera , however if you don't know how manually operate camera and set the right values you can't use it correctly , each HDRI is shot with different camera setting for the main base so it is always different .
1. The best way is to download settings for digital camera and learn the values , I use my physical camera always in manual mode so know the values for years .
2. For a person that does not know yet how to do it there is an option under iray viewport, that will automatic set up your render with the correct exposure and white balance so not need for anything else as it is easy one button click that will adjust the scene Tone mapping for best lighting based on your scene
you can change what the button selector function do under Draw Setting , Exposure, White balance or both, working the same as your real camera set on Auto
start your iray viewport click the +/- button next to iray logo and select the full frame of your scene , iray will calculate and adjust the camera setting based on the light in your scene to the correct values , if your material settings are wrong or you use full color values like white 255 you can get wrong result . I use it sometimes just with exposure to check the camera values on HDRI I don't made and save the scene for later usage .
@nonesuch00 sorry for the off topic post
but the facial expression on your forum Avatar image is EPIC!!..Bloody hilarious.
Thanks, that's what I was trying for, embarrassed laugh. You could imagine my embarrassment I put myself into Facegen and come out with Howdy Doody.
..ummm, all this talk of 8 bit, 16 bit, 32 bit maps is beginning to leave me behind just as all the minute settings discussed in the Iray Skin thread did. Please bring it back down to a level most of us non pros can understand.
it is easy , it is about the quality of the displacement maps 32bit more information, smother result higher range , 8 bit less information and more distortions lower range
Here are tips for Displacement maps in Zbrush
UVS
Displacement mapping generally requires a good UV layout of your object. There can be no overlapping UVs as it will cause errors in the generated maps. Also, ZBrush in particular does not like UVs to rest directly on the edges of the UV sheet (as some automatic UV generation methods will do) - so make sure your UVs are always placed slightly within the edges of the UV sheet.
BASEMESHES
Remember that while sculpting at higher subdivision levels, the positions of lower subdivision vertices are often also being affected. So the low res mesh you imported into your sculpting program may no longer be exactly the same as the low res mesh you're using to generate your displacement map. Always double check to make sure the low res mesh you generated your displacement map from is the same as the mesh you're applying your displacement map to.
DISPLACEMENT MAPS ARE SCALE DEPENDENT
Since the pixel values of a floating-point displacement map correspond directly to scene units, your object's scale becomes an important factor for guaranteeing accurate displacement amounts. If you scale your low-res mesh up or down after you've already generated your displacement map, your displacement map will no longer have accurate intensity values relative to the new scale of the basemesh. The map will either have to be regenerated with the new object scale, if you scaled your object up x2, then you'll have to increase the displacement amount setting x2 to compensate.
Useful info there Cath. Thanks so much! XO
...but only if you have Zbrush. What "less expensive" programme can that be done with?
Cath, you can't believe how useful this tip was for me!!! I had never tried that +/- button before. I took an HDRI that I got free on the web that had always been dark and muddy looking and made my characters look dark and muddy, too. I used this tool for exposure only and wow, the image is very pleasing to me now. Thank you!
Edit: Oh, and by the way, I used one of your Volume 3 PBR shaders on the hair bands.
The HDRI is from http://www.aversis.be
Looking great , glad to see it worked for you , the level is just perfect without burned area
search google for modeling programs that can bake displacement maps , or use your modeling program and then bake displacement from it usin X Normal what is free
the rules are the same for all displacement maps Zbrush or not
you welcome Richard xoxo