Who said Blender was hard?

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  • StratDragonStratDragon Posts: 2,776
    edited May 2014


    ...hotkeys are great in word processor and spreadsheet software where your hands are always on the keyboard. In graphics apps. I find them to be cumbersome and clunky.

    never show up to a job interview as a graphic artists without knowing your shortcuts. I've seen people with amazing portfolios shown the door because they lacked this critical skill.

    Post edited by StratDragon on
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 24,146
    edited December 1969

    Well, you can change all of the settings in Blender, including font sizes, interface colors, layout of windows. ALL of them. Or none of them. You cannot do this with all of DAZ's offerings (Carrara, Hexagon, Bryce, even DS).

    The layout in Blender may not be standard, I'll grant you that. But the complete flexibility of the user interface is worth anybody's consideration, and should be an industry standard for all software.


    ..I'm with Ghastlycomic on this,

    One example: the mouse click protocols are often reversed from just about 90% of all other software out on the market. Now I know this can be changed, but to find it you have to spend time digging around and going through a bunch of setting screens or pull up a tutorial to find it.

    What should be basic camera controls (again as in most other graphics software) just are not there. Yes, you can set this up as a "custom" feature, but it takes extra time having to learn how to do something that should already be basic to the application.

    It's almost as if Blender was engineered backwards compared to other applications, with all the advanced features thrown at a new user from the "get-go" rather than allowing one to become familiar with the application's basic functions first before moving on to the more advanced features as one becomes more experienced.

    Blender need not sacrifice it's "flexibility" to be more straightforward and easier to learn for new users. It can still have all the advanced "customisable" features longtime experienced users are accustomed to.

    Basically a UI should not present a learning curve as difficult, complex, and overwhelming (if not more so) as the functions the software is to be used for.

  • StratDragonStratDragon Posts: 2,776
    edited December 1969

    kinda off topic but - Does blender have icons to control the camera like poser does? I'm not use to moving the mouse and middle mouse button to rotate the camera.

    Thanks for posting the link to the video but I need to find a tutorial for beginners as opposed to animation.

    edit: I just realized that Blender doesn't really have a toolbar or toolbox like Hexagon.

    the camera behaves very differently in Blender. You can't go into Blender with a Poser, Studio, Bryce or Hex background for the Camera and expect to make sense of it.
    Blender is a very keyboard shortcut heavy app and it's power under the hood is a big reason for that. Hex in comparison is strictly a 3D modeler that has not had an update or change in years so the interface still works for what it does.

  • none01ohonenone01ohone Posts: 862
    edited May 2014

    I've stuck at it with Blender by going through a few Andrew Price tutorials. Although I'm always left clicking and moving the 3Dcusor, which is a wind up.
    It's hard to wrap your head around right clicking and I frequently revert to left clicking.

    Post edited by none01ohone on
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 24,146
    edited May 2014



    ...hotkeys are great in word processor and spreadsheet software where your hands are always on the keyboard. In graphics apps. I find them to be cumbersome and clunky.

    never show up to a job interview as a graphic artists without knowing your shortcuts. I've seen people with amazing portfolios shown the door because they lacked this critical skill.
    ...I have no issue with that in the industry. I do have an issue when it gets in the way of learning the basic functions of the software for the first time.

    A person new to, say MS Word, can open the application for the first time and find his/her way around reasonably enough to compose a text document using various formatting features (the main ones which are presented on on the toolbar) within a short amount of time. As they become more experienced with the software, they begin to learn and adopt using keyboard shortcuts. In my last job I used shortcuts in all the MS office apps to the point people watching me would almost get dizzy seeing the screens open/close, menus, pop up etc. That however, came after years of experience with the software to get to that point.

    Not so with Blender, one is forced to figure out these shortcuts from day one to even manipulate a simple primitive in the workspace. That is, as I mentioned in my post above, a somewhat "backwards" approach compared to most software on the market. You lean the basics first, while working on projects and as you become more experienced you learn the shortcuts, not the other way around.

    As I am doing this for personal reasons and not looking at a job in the industry (don't have software like 3DS, or Photoshop which is primarily what you need to know for a career in graphics today) I don't need to use a lot of shortcuts to get my work done. I basically need a good, solid modelling application that is not unstable and "buggy" (Hexagon), or hamstrung by 32 bit memory limitations (I successfully crashed Silo on my 64 bit workstation within ten minutes, working with SubD on a simple mesh). Unfortunately I do not have 3,600$ for 3DS or even 700$ for ZBrush.

    It comes down to Blender being the only option available as it is 64 bit and very stable. However, again as I mentioned, having to deal with a learning curve just for the UI that is on par with the difficulty of learning modelling at the same time makes me feel I am staring up from the bottom of a sheer rock face cliff in front of me with no climbing gear in available (read: "a more straightforward and intuitive UI").

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • starionwolfstarionwolf Posts: 2,933
    edited May 2014

    never show up to a job interview as a graphic artists without knowing your shortcuts. I've seen people with amazing portfolios shown the door because they lacked this critical skill.

    Shortcuts? Huh? I like clicking icons on the toobar/toolbox and menus. The only shortcut that I normally use is CTRL+S to save files. I'm not going to a job interview as a graphics artist so what is the problem? All I did was ask if I can find icons to control the camera. Please don't bash me or my lack of experience.

    May I remind you that personal attacks are not allowed on the forums. http://www.daz3d.com/terms-of-service

    Thank you and have a nice day.

    edit: forgot something.

    Post edited by starionwolf on
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 24,146
    edited December 1969

    ...um, I think StratDragon's response was addressed to me and I don't see it as being an attack as he does make a valid point.


    If I tried to get a clerical or accounting job without the advanced skills in MS Office that I have, I'd be shown the door as well.

  • starionwolfstarionwolf Posts: 2,933
    edited May 2014

    but the thing is: I am NOT going to apply for a job in graphics design or 3D modeling/animation.

    But I digress. sorry for the outrage. I'll leave now and play with Hexagon before the moderators chide me. lol. Bye.

    edit: did I say Hexagon? I meant Poser 9. ;)

    Post edited by starionwolf on
  • ghastlycomicghastlycomic Posts: 2,302
    edited December 1969



    ...hotkeys are great in word processor and spreadsheet software where your hands are always on the keyboard. In graphics apps. I find them to be cumbersome and clunky.

    never show up to a job interview as a graphic artists without knowing your shortcuts. I've seen people with amazing portfolios shown the door because they lacked this critical skill.

    So you can be an amazing artist with great talent and skill who is able to deliver results on time every time, but because you haven't memorized the hotkey for the posterization filter you end up not getting the job.

    THIS ladies and gentlemen is why entire H.R. departments will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 24,146
    edited May 2014

    ...hear hear!


    HR departments are basically the new "filter system" to keep people from getting a job.

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • ghastlycomicghastlycomic Posts: 2,302
    edited December 1969

    The worst of the bunch are the H.R. Departments which make job requirements that can't possibly be met as a justification for outsourcing the work to a country where the same skilled labour can be had for pennies on the dollar.

    So you get listed that require the applicant to have 6 years experience in technology that is only 2 years old. Then they can say to the government "we have to outsource these jobs, nobody here is qualified".

    Because as we all know India and China have magic time travel technology that gives them the ability to have 6 years experience on equipment that's only 2 years old.

  • DaremoK3DaremoK3 Posts: 523
    edited December 1969

    Spirited debate as always...

    Kyoto Kid:

    I did not mean for you to think you had to do any coding. I know you wouldn't want to, so I did it for you.

    Here is the modified script you (or anyone else here) can download to use:

    http://www.sendspace.com/file/pkyh87


    starionwolf:

    It's not Poser controls, but I think you will like it. Just download, and give it a try. I've only been using it for a day (since I modded the script), and I don't miss having to press "ALT, CTRL, and SHIFT" at all. Quite freeing, actually...


    ***Please read the ReadMe, for sanities sake, before asking any questions, but if you have questions, I'm usually around.

    Here is an image showing the moddified Tool Tab, and settings described in the ReadMe. I added a couple other things for quick access to enhance functionality.

    Hope you guys like...

    Blender3DNavMod.jpg
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  • StratDragonStratDragon Posts: 2,776
    edited May 2014



    ...hotkeys are great in word processor and spreadsheet software where your hands are always on the keyboard. In graphics apps. I find them to be cumbersome and clunky.

    never show up to a job interview as a graphic artists without knowing your shortcuts. I've seen people with amazing portfolios shown the door because they lacked this critical skill.

    So you can be an amazing artist with great talent and skill who is able to deliver results on time every time, but because you haven't memorized the hotkey for the posterization filter you end up not getting the job.

    THIS ladies and gentlemen is why entire H.R. departments will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes.

    HR Departments dont make this call, the Art Directors do. If you are going to hobby use the software the way you want but in the real world I've watched talented people leave an interview knowing they were not getting the job. It's a liability if you are clicking through menus when you don't know the vulcan nerve pinch key combo that will tell your potential employer that you know this software like it's your business.
    Case in point: I've been using DS for years, I know some key combo and the letter D will drop to the floor, I don't know much more in DS. Blender on the other hand has me on the keyboard like Rick Wakeman soloing at a 1970's YES concert.

    ...but trying to get back on topic if everything in Blender were available from non contextual menus it would scroll right off he page from the top of the screen. I'm constantly finding new key combos that do something important that I add to my repertoire. Blender has to be a gradual learning experience because it's too vast. In the year Ive been using it I've yet to venture out of edit, object and sculpt. Making comparisons to Hexagon and Cararra and Zbrush don't cover it all because Blender does for the most part all the things those apps do and it does a hell of a lot more as well. It's the most ambitious piece of software I've ever come across let alone try to learn but it's awesome, after 2 failed attempts to learn it I've stuck with it and it's truly awesome.

    Post edited by StratDragon on
  • wweswwes Posts: 589
    edited December 1969

    Personally, I love the camera setup in Blender. To me it seem very simple and intuitive. Right hand on the numpad, just press the key where you want the camera to move. Or the middle mouse key to move around. Conversely, I've been trying to learn Poser 9, and the cameras (and many other things) drive me crazy.

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 5,022
    edited December 1969

    wwes said:
    Personally, I love the camera setup in Blender. To me it seem very simple and intuitive. Right hand on the numpad, just press the key where you want the camera to move. Or the middle mouse key to move around. Conversely, I've been trying to learn Poser 9, and the cameras (and many other things) drive me crazy.


    Its funny you should say that cause Im the opposite. I tired learning Blender back in 2012 via a nice written tutorial and when I got to the part about camera movement the whole thing just came to a halt for me. But at least I tried.

    Speaking of Blender, just found this guy's artwork last night - http://alphaprimesaviour.deviantart.com/

    He has some really cool car renders in there of cars and other things.

  • wweswwes Posts: 589
    edited December 1969

    To each his own. :) I think a lot of it is how we think and what we first learned on.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 24,146
    edited December 1969

    ...you are 100% correct.

    I first started on Gimp doing manipulations of scanned work and photos (well before I ever knew about 3D).

    My first experience was with Daz Studio (1.5) as Poser cost 250$ and Daz was free. I immediately took to it like the proverbial "fish in water" as not only were the controls simple to understand, but the lighting system was very similar to theatrical lighting which I had experience with in the real world. Finally got Poser 6 (primarily for helping with clothing and rigging as Daz Studio had neither at the time) and found it's UI to be a bit more cumbersome but not unmanageable. I moved on to Bryce 6.1 and then Carrara 6 as the ability to work in a full environment was something I found attractive.

    Finally I ended up with Hexagon as I felt ready to tackle modelling (I had played with the trial version of Modo 303 and liked it, but the price tag of 899$ at the time as far beyond my budget). First time out designing a simple organ pipe as an exercise, the programme froze and crashed. Lost everything. Went back in and tried again (this time saving the base of the shape part of the way through the session) only to have it crash again, and again.

    After mentioning my frustrations with Hexagon in the old forums I was told about Blender which at the time was still primarily a modelling application. Downloaded and installed it, but when I opened it up found myself totally lost, unlike with the previous applications above. The difference, all the programmes I had used beforehand employed a rather similar UI. Granted, in Bryce you worked in wireframe mode and Carrara, a flat textured mode, each which took a little getting used to, but the basic controls and menus were pretty much the same.

    With Blender, I felt like I was at the controls of the Space Shuttle. Where were all the drop down menus, the tabs, the icons, why were there no camera controls, and what was that triangular looking thing in the upper part of the screen? Were were the polygon editing tools? The primitives? The node and face editing tools? I felt I had nothing to go on as the UI looked totally "alien" compared to the other applications I had learned (mostly on my own).

    Not having a net connection at home, I was unable to view the tutorials while working through a test project so after a couple months of frustration I uninstalled it and pretty much gave up any hope for learning modelling. There was hope that maybe someday Daz would fix all the bugs and instabilities in Hexagon so I could finally spend my time concentrating on the task of learning modelling. Of course that was not to be as apparently Daz had abandoned any further development on Hexagon.

    As I have mentioned elsewhere, had I been steered to Blender first (instead of Daz/Poser), I might have actually figured it out by now and most likely be using it as my "go to" app today (and maybe even become a creator/vendor).

  • Rayman29Rayman29 Posts: 0
    edited May 2014

    The '20 hours=90%' thing seams to fit here. Most apps fit in that bracket.

    That is to say 'Use it for 20 hours, and you'll be 90% proficient'.

    edit::- Obviously if you just import obj files for 20 hours, you missed my point.

    Post edited by Rayman29 on
  • starionwolfstarionwolf Posts: 2,933
    edited May 2014

    I just realized something: I cannot find a menu to create primatives in Poser 9. Looks like I'll need to use Blender. 2.70 :lol: I even looked for Poser Tutorials. All I saw were tutorials for dynamic hair and clothes.

    At least blender can export Objs and Poser 9 can import Objs. I just need to learn how to texture stuff and how to create .cr2 and .pz3 files.

    Now if I can just select the cube and the light in blender to move it. Click... click.. the circle/crosshair cursor moves but the cube is not highlighted. Guess I'll go look for some tutorials on Blender 2.70 again.

    Ok, bye

    blender.jpg
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    Post edited by starionwolf on
  • Rayman29Rayman29 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    'Can u make fun of it...'
    To be real. I don't give a rats ass
    Btw, the Whispering person has legitimacy.

    That said 'I' and that said all. Could give a rats ass

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 24,146
    edited December 1969

    Rayman29 said:
    The '20 hours=90%' thing seams to fit here. Most apps fit in that bracket.

    That is to say 'Use it for 20 hours, and you'll be 90% proficient'.

    edit::- Obviously if you just import obj files for 20 hours, you missed my point.


    ...after 80 hrs with Blender, (over about 4 weeks time as I had other things to deal with like day job) I maybe was at about 5 -10% proficient with it because the UI seemed so "cryptic" compared to other graphics apps.I had used.
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 24,146
    edited December 1969

    Rayman29 said:
    'Can u make fun of it...'
    To be real. I don't give a rats ass
    Btw, the Whispering person has legitimacy.

    That said 'I' and that said all. Could give a rats ass


    ..well then why are you here distracting this discussion?
  • RenpatsuRenpatsu Posts: 828
    edited December 1969

    Kyoto Kid said:
    Rayman29 said:
    The '20 hours=90%' thing seams to fit here. Most apps fit in that bracket.

    That is to say 'Use it for 20 hours, and you'll be 90% proficient'.

    edit::- Obviously if you just import obj files for 20 hours, you missed my point.


    ...after 80 hrs with Blender, (over about 4 weeks time as I had other things to deal with like day job) I maybe was at about 5 -10% proficient with it because the UI seemed so "cryptic" compared to other graphics apps.I had used.

    I am in a similar boat ...

    One thing that strikes me with Blender is that for me it doesn't have a similar learning curve like any other program I tried so far. DAZ Studio I learned fully without any manual in version 3 and now 4 without any pre-knowledge of rendering etc. - yes it got way less features than Blender, but it still doesn't throw complex functionality directly at you for you to drown in. Carrara 8.5 I don't see any huge obstacles so far either (though the UI could use some re-design in places ;) ) - also without any manual. 3D Coat is one more program I started without reading any manual (it got one, but I just didn't use it) and it is very intuitive in its functions and cleanly designed - you can find your way around in very few hours.

    Blender I couldn't imagine without heavy reading up even for some very basic things and then there is this annoying bit of having it to tweak so that it finally behaves somewhat like many applications in the market. As I read it, with e.g. all the suggestions for a revamped Blender UI, I am not alone there.

  • nobody1954nobody1954 Posts: 899
    edited December 1969

    Rayman29 said:
    'Can u make fun of it...'
    To be real. I don't give a rats ass
    Btw, the Whispering person has legitimacy.

    That said 'I' and that said all. Could give a rats ass

    Please read the terms of service.

  • Subtropic PixelSubtropic Pixel Posts: 1,364
    edited May 2014

    First, the stuff I see made with Blender is amazing. AMAZING. Matty, thanks for that link; I went to the guy's site and saw some of his (her?) work. Wow.

    Kyoto Kid, I'm like you; very busy with a full-time job and other commitments.

    For me I would not have it any other way, because I understand how it works psychologically and physiologically. My work and social interactions make up the physical manifestation of how I internally define myself as a human and a man. For me this is inescapable, so I've learned to live with it and even to embrace it.

    I knew that for me the Blender learning curve would be a long haul, and I knew I would have to be patient (mostly with myself) because my progress can only match the amount of time I'm able to devote to this, which is not much even on a weekly basis. So to be fair to ME, I promised myself that I would NOT NOT NOT hinder my progress by taking a bad attitude about Blender's busy windows, reversed mouse buttons, or other idiosyncrasies.

    The fact is, EVERYTHING WORKS and NOTHING CRASHES. Whoohoo, what more could I ask for? Man, if I just sit here and complain about "sooo many hours and all I learned was how to drag a window", then I'll never get anywhere quickly or slowly! I'll be miserable with myself and my artwork craft and quite frankly, I'll deserve every minute of frustration I encounter.

    As I mentioned earlier, Blender is infinitely flexible. So yeah, at some point, I will probably change those mouse keys. But why sit here and whine about that when the fact is that I can set Blender up any way I wish, allowing me to ensure that my installed software works for ME and also allows me to ensure that I can ACTUALLY SEE AND READ the user interface elements? I whine about Carrara, but I have cause to, because it's paid software and these important elements have NOT been upgraded in decades.

    More importantly, Blender is already 64 bit, should handle ANYTHING I throw at it, and does not crash like Hexagon does. This right here is a deal-killer for Hexagon for me.

    I won't say anything bad about people who have gotten frustrated with Blender, but I will say that I'm prepared to put in up to 1,000 hours to see what I can do. Unfortunately for me, this will take a long long time, because there are a lot of weeks where I can only put in a couple hours if that. But I'm prepared for that.

    If you're going to try Blender, then do yourself a favor and DEDICATE YOURSELF to it for the time you have decided, and remember that it's flexible software, so feel free to stretch, bend, twist, and spindle it to meet your brain, hands, eyes, and working style! :coolsmile:


    Clarification Edit: I use Blender for modelling and I still use DAZ Studio for scene building and character posing.

    Post edited by Subtropic Pixel on
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 24,146
    edited May 2014

    ...I agree, FireAngel's futuristic aircraft and vehicles are incredible (I have most of them) and they are set up well to function in Poser of Daz.

    Modelling was the only reason I looked into Blender. If it had remained primarily a modelling application I think it would have been simpler to "soften" the learning curve of the UI through making it easier to adapt to "out of the box" without alienating the longtime user core. However it grew into a full featured application along the lines of 3DS. (heck, even Modo has gone this way as well, with significant increase in price may I add).

    It comes down to again, why can't anyone produce just a nice stable 64 bit standalone modelling programme that has good UV mapping (and possibly even sculpting tools) which doesn't cost several limbs to purchase. I don't need all the other features to gum up the works as I already have them in Carrara and to a slightly lesser degree, in Daz.

    Again it is too bad that Daz cannot devote the attention needed to fully update Hexagon to where it would be stable, have improved UV mapping functions, and be 64 bit - as I firmly believe a good part of its instability is due to the strict memory limits it currently has to operate under (adding only a couple levels of smoothing or subdivision can result in a memory out of bounds error which will crash it). It's UI is easy to learn and it already has a two way bridge with Daz Studio which, in a sense, makes both programmes modular with respect to each other.

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • ghastlycomicghastlycomic Posts: 2,302
    edited December 1969

    I keep hearing "sure Blender's interface is pure crap, but it's customizable crap so you can set it up to be a useable interface if you spend a weak learning how to program a new one".

    Well that's all fine and well, but why doesn't Blender just set up the default UI to be one that doesn't suck in the first place.

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,160
    edited September 2015

    51 Blender Shortcuts You Should Know Blender really is one of the fastest modelers if one gets to know the shortcuts so it's worth the time to learn them. There are a lot of shortcuts in Blender but this list is a pretty good summary of the core ones.

    Post edited by Joe Cotter on
  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,160

    5 Common Pitfalls for Blender Beginners. There are some acknowledged things in Blender that throw people just starting out off... These are some of the most common ones.

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,160

    11 Awesome Blender Addons Blender actually has some tools not available in other content creation packages and best of all they are often free. For instance, check out the Ivy Generator if you haven't seen it already.

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