What happend to Poser Content?

wolf359

"The lack of Genesis3 support in the iClone DAZ Genesis importer is unfortunate, but not a killer since the layout of Genesis3 is more conducive to the use of default industry tools."

The lack of genesis 3 support Directly in Iclone
is not even at the center of my problem with this model.

I am a big believer in retargeting from one model to the next either directly "man to man" so to speak or via export to an intermediate format(aniblock,PZ2,BVH)

This allows me to work with  undressed low res proxies
and refine my animation and simply transfer it to the
fully dressed,hi res textured "film ready" actor
that is rendered in my render program Maxon Cinema4D studio via Obj/MDD.

There is a free script by "Mcasual" that does this retargeting in DS wonderfully.
but G3 rigging prevents any type of retargeting.

"Yes, Genesis 2 support wasn't rolled out until Iclone 6 and the added the support to iclone 5 as well."

But thats the beauty of the Iclone/3DXchange pipeline while it may have been nice for you to have G2 imported directly into iclone from your first day with Iclone 5. 

you could have easily been using G1 and exporting the bone motion data out as BVH and apply that  to G2 in daz studio.
Its called "blocking" and facial animation and lipsyinc can be layered on in DS but the heavy lifting
(walking running, dancing, fighting etc) was done in realtime with Iclone's excellent motionbuilding tools. 

wolf359

Just a quick example of the free retargeting script.
the left figure is genesis 1 performing a basic 300 frame walk where he collapses in pain at the end.
the right figure is the G2 male doing nothing.

wolf359

one click later the motion (from iclone or BVH or poser Pz2 whatever),

is transferred to the fully dressed G2 male or G2 female .

this is not possible with G3
this is why many animators perfer not to use it. 

Ivy

Kendall Sears said:

As an animator, I find this thread very "interesting".  What I see is people talking around each other.

Genesis3 is as "animatable" as any other boned/mesh figure, one could argue that it is more animatable than the Genesis generations prior because DAZ moved it toward the "standards" that are used in the industry.   However, Genesis3 is not as compatible with the previous tools that many were used to using.  That is the cost of advancement.

The lack of Genesis3 support in the iClone DAZ Genesis importer is unfortunate, but not a killer since the layout of Genesis3 is more conducive to the use of default industry tools.

My animations that involve "human" models are based on Genesis1 and Genesis2 for the most part.  I have models that exist in both forms (using GenX2 to make the forms/shapes available for Genesis2) so that, as necessary, I can use whichever works best for the situation.  For closeups, G2 is preferred since the model simply looks better for detail, but I find Genesis1 is easier to work with in the general animation.  Some of the models also have Generation4 forms because they date back to before Genesis, and when necessary those are also used, but far less than they were in the past.

My point is that this bickering over which model(s) are the best is silly.  The best one is the one that makes the *scene* work best.  Limiting oneself to one model, one tool, one anything is silly.  These are all tools folks -- use the one that gets the job done and don't worry about the other stuff.  Once the job is done and billed does it really matter?

I will say this:  The reason that I use the Genesis series of models is because NO OTHER human model series allows for the speed and efficiency of getting from idea to implementation as fast.  Getting Genesis into other software (for the most part) is not a problem once the initial work is done.

The real "fun" coming up as far as animation goes is getting my partner's animals to move realistically.  Looking at you "Jungle Book" :)

Kendall, and by proxy Alexa (CG and Animation student at Purdue University)

Hi Kendall,   I don't think anyone is bickering. but there is some difference of opinons.between the people that do animation and those who don't.   I never heard or said g3 was unanimatable . But I have said many times as others that do story animation that g3 is too frustrating to work with, as you may be aware my story animations are always longer than 2 minutes and usually have up too 200 scenes in them. I don't need any extra work for animations i don't make a cent on.  , especially  with the lack of support for g3 has for animation..  Yes I understand g3 is new, yes I know it takes time to build  assets for new character sets.   But doing so takes time and it can be expensive.  With that said, for me its not worth the effort you have to put into it to make g3 do the same things like the characters I have that do work.    If the the price for new technology is to break compatibilty  with everything we have ,  they can keep it,  and I'll want until some else has done the leg work making g3 more useful in animation. 

    I notice as you stated you use genesis & g2 in your animations, why you have not moved over too & invested the time in the g3 ?   I think you see my point.  I kind of want to wait and see how other people make story animations like I do, only using g3 and the work arounds they have to create for them.. Then I may begin to get a interest in g3. until then I have no problem waiting for genesis 4 and and if g4 does not break compatibility with the g23  maybe then I'll start rebuilding my Motion file library for those character sets.  As it is right now I not making a new motion library or create new work flows  every time daz changes a character mesh that breaks compatibilty with th model set they sold , that is ridiculous..lol  

So for right now, what I am doing for story animation using 3dl,  generation 4 & and g2 are all I need for now to complete my projects that need characters in them with out having  to interrupt or modify my work flow.  I just can't see creating new motion files for a character  that has no more benefit to use than what I am using now.    Really what would be the point?

 

 

Kendall Sears

Ivy said:

Kendall Sears said:

As an animator, I find this thread very "interesting".  What I see is people talking around each other.

Genesis3 is as "animatable" as any other boned/mesh figure, one could argue that it is more animatable than the Genesis generations prior because DAZ moved it toward the "standards" that are used in the industry.   However, Genesis3 is not as compatible with the previous tools that many were used to using.  That is the cost of advancement.

The lack of Genesis3 support in the iClone DAZ Genesis importer is unfortunate, but not a killer since the layout of Genesis3 is more conducive to the use of default industry tools.

My animations that involve "human" models are based on Genesis1 and Genesis2 for the most part.  I have models that exist in both forms (using GenX2 to make the forms/shapes available for Genesis2) so that, as necessary, I can use whichever works best for the situation.  For closeups, G2 is preferred since the model simply looks better for detail, but I find Genesis1 is easier to work with in the general animation.  Some of the models also have Generation4 forms because they date back to before Genesis, and when necessary those are also used, but far less than they were in the past.

My point is that this bickering over which model(s) are the best is silly.  The best one is the one that makes the *scene* work best.  Limiting oneself to one model, one tool, one anything is silly.  These are all tools folks -- use the one that gets the job done and don't worry about the other stuff.  Once the job is done and billed does it really matter?

I will say this:  The reason that I use the Genesis series of models is because NO OTHER human model series allows for the speed and efficiency of getting from idea to implementation as fast.  Getting Genesis into other software (for the most part) is not a problem once the initial work is done.

The real "fun" coming up as far as animation goes is getting my partner's animals to move realistically.  Looking at you "Jungle Book" :)

Kendall, and by proxy Alexa (CG and Animation student at Purdue University)

Hi Kendall,   I don't think anyone is bickering. but there is some difference of opinons.between the people that do animation and those who don't.   I never heard or said g3 was unanimatable . But I have said many times as others that do story animation that g3 is too frustrating to work with, as you may be aware my story animations are always longer than 2 minutes and usually have up too 200 scenes in them. I don't need any extra work for animations i don't make a cent on.  , especially  with the lack of support for g3 has for animation..  Yes I understand g3 is new, yes I know it takes time to build  assets for new character sets.   But doing so takes time and it can be expensive.  With that said, for me its not worth the effort you have to put into it to make g3 do the same things like the characters I have that do work.    If the the price for new technology is to break compatibilty  with everything we have ,  they can keep it,  and I'll want until some else has done the leg work making g3 more useful in animation. 

    I notice as you stated you use genesis & g2 in your animations, may I ask why you have not moved over too & invested the time in the g3 yet?  I just wondering if its no different than working with genesis or g2?,  I think you see my point.  I kind of want to wait and see how other people make story animations like I do, only using g3 and the work arounds they have to create for them.. Then I may begin to get a interest in g3. until then I have no problem waiting for genesis 4 and and if g4 does not break compatibility with the g23  maybe then I'll start rebuilding my Motion file library for those character sets.  As it is right now I not making a new motion library or create new work flows  every time daz changes a character mesh that is ridiculous..lol  

So for right now, what I am doing for story animation using 3dl,  generation 4 & and g2 are all I need for now to complete my projects that need characters in them with out having  to interrupt or modify my work flow creating new motion files for a character  that has no more benefit to use than what I am using now.    Really what would be the point?

 

 

I didn't say there was bickering, just that folx were talking around each other instead of to each other.  Many of the same things were being said but in manners that made them seem different.

I don't use g3 for those specific projects because there is no conversion for the morphs/shapes to g3 yet.  Once there is, I will most likely convert the figures so that they can be used there as well.  I have no problem with using whatever gets the job done and paid, however, there is a tendency (especially in the DAZ and poser-verses) to poo-poo anything new or different for reasons that are really very easy to resolve once one takes the time to actually look at the situation dispassionately.

Kendall

Ivy

Kendall Sears said:

Ivy said:

 

 

I didn't say there was bickering, just that folx were talking around each other instead of to each other.  Many of the same things were being said but in manners that made them seem different.

I don't use g3 for those specific projects because there is no conversion for the morphs/shapes to g3 yet.  Once there is, I will most likely convert the figures so that they can be used there as well.  I have no problem with using whatever gets the job done and paid, however, there is a tendency (especially in the DAZ and poser-verses) to poo-poo anything new or different for reasons that are really very easy to resolve once one takes the time to actually look at the situation dispassionately.

Kendall

I can understand what your saying    I have not been using my poser for animation at all, I been just investing in daz because of the environments are so much better. so this really isn't a poser issue for me.  that ship sailed already when daz 4 came out.

But my point still stand on what I said about compatibly   I'm not  gunna making a new motion library or create new work flows  every time daz changes a character mesh that breaks compatibility with the models they previously sold , So for what I am doing for story animation using 3dl,  generation 4 & and g2 are all I need for now to complete my projects that need characters in them without having  to interrupt or modify my work flow.  I just can't see creating new motion files for a character  that has no more benefit to use than what I am using now.    Really what would be the point?"

wolf359

" I just can't see creating new motion files for a character  that has no more benefit to use than what I am using now.    Really what would be the point?"

This is exactly my position
add to that I am a sci if/comicbook nerd
who needs aliens& creatures in my animations.
the G1/G2 offers me the most variety species wise
and work seamlessly in my Iclone/Endorphin/Daz to Cinema4D pipeline.
The extra work to get usable animation from the Genesis3 figure  cant be justfied as it brings nothing
new to the stories I like to tell through animation.

Ivy

wolf359 said:

" I just can't see creating new motion files for a character  that has no more benefit to use than what I am using now.    Really what would be the point?"

This is exactly my position
add to that I am a sci if/comicbook nerd
who needs aliens& creatures in my animations.
the G1/G2 offers me the most variety species wise
and work seamlessly in my Iclone/Endorphin/Daz to Cinema4D pipeline.
The extra work to get usable animation from the Genesis3 figure  cant be justfied as it brings nothing
new to the stories I like to tell through animation.

Yup  we have a different need for our art than those that render still art.

I'm not against G3, I do like the looks of the stuff that has come out for it, if I was buying for still rendering. thats would not be a problems buying  mix match content.  But clothing and faces morphs are just not enough reason for me to work with it. . that is why I am willing to wait to see what happens when Genesis 4 comes out in a couple of years or so,  and if its plays nice with Genesis 3 and the amount of time that has gone by, Maybe the tools and arsenal of other things needed for it to work in our flows in animation maybe will catch up with the new mesh technology .   I did the same thing with Genesis.

BTW how much longer before your done rendering your new film?  .. I still have a ways to go on this street racing animation

edited for spelling :

wolf359

"BTW how much longer before your done rendering your new film?  .. I still have a ways to go on this street racing animation"

I can only say I have a ways to go as well lol!! 
I am doing this film in linear sequence
breaking it up in "Acts" of 8 to 10 minutes
rendering the final scene of Act III  today and will Start
recording dialog for act IV this weekend.
Acts 1-III were what I call "establishing" storylines
so the viewers know the motivations of each character
But now I finally get into the "meat" of the Story
where to Human leader has his first Face to Face meeting with the world Devouring Entity "Galactus"

I am very excited about reaching this point 30 minutes into my film as we tell the Amazing Story of Galactus's origin one trillion years ago on his homeworld in the first universe that preceded the big bang that created ours.
 there will be Alot of VFX/Space scenes etc coming up.(excited!!)

Anyway here is a rough edit of a sample clip from about 20 minutes in   you may have already seen this but if not have  peek...Cheers
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2TYEp536iB8TURicWZqQTNwWGc

Ivy

wolf359 said:

"BTW how much longer before your done rendering your new film?  .. I still have a ways to go on this street racing animation"

Anyway here is a rough edit of a sample clip from about 20 minutes in   you may have already seen this but if not have  peek...Cheers
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2TYEp536iB8TURicWZqQTNwWGc

I've been following what you been doing a awhile i seen this demo in the Be Honest, Is Daz the best for animation? thread.. its very exciting.

Are you doing your rendering in Daz or Iclone.?   I really like the volumetics you done with your lighting.

wolf359

Hi Ivy  I render in C4D via Export .obj MDD
here is a new 2 minute clip that takes place a few minutes after the Appearance of the Massive Dreadnought.
Ever figure in this clip Except Galactus & the "Obsidian", is being acted by a Daz genesis 1 or G2
 figures.

 That crowd scene at the corridoor intersection
is made up of two ultra low res G1 figures reduced to less than 500 faces with the Daz Decimator plugin.

They are replicated with C4D cloner module to make the "crowd" and  Catmull/Clark subdivided at render time to give a smoother final appearance

I am operating completely alone on this project
and all of the voice acting is done by me with that aid
of the Morph vox pro software for windows.

 

I plan to create a detailed 30 minute "making of " segment to tack on to the end of the final release Explaining my entire Character animation VFX pipeline
...anyway back to work 

Cheers

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2TYEp536iB8aVBBdHJWRE9jODg

Ivy

I think its very cool what your doing

Daywalker Designs

The problem, as I see it, is that if not enough people try to use Genesis 3 in their animation work, there won't be any incentive on the part of outside developers to support adding whatever is needed to their software to be able to use it. Waiting to see if the next generation Genesis model is compatible isn't going to help much.

Ivy

daywalker03 said:

The problem, as I see it, is that if not enough people try to use Genesis 3 in their animation work, there won't be any incentive on the part of outside developers to support adding whatever is needed to their software to be able to use it. Waiting to see if the next generation Genesis model is compatible isn't going to help much.

Yea that is a unwanted side effect when compatibility is broke with currently working models & tools,  it take a long time to get traction going again.  as I stated in another thread , You can make animations with Genesis 3 just fine.  But in my opinion it will take a lot more work to do so than its worth,  because gen3 is fairly new and seriously lacking in the tools and plugins needed to create proper motion files and transfers those files into the pipeline of workflows that we have  that are meant for a older generation.figures ,  so everything Genesis 3 as it is now will have to be hand key framed and saved.  and that file will only be good for Genesis 3 &  not with your older generation figures. so the extra effort for those of us that already have working files for what does work makes people that already invested in animation bit more hesitant to rebuild for new character technology.  Knowing that all the work we do could be lost again with the next generations figure.

But on the hand it won't be as dramatic for a new person that is just starting out with daz and investing & using Genesis 3  for their animations because they are building their asset libraries anyway.   so when genesis4 comes out and it plays nice with g3 I can see incentives to rebuild my animation assets.  but if requires another work around. to make g3 work with g4 you can kiss future animation support good bye.

So your right its a "Real catch 22"

Knittingmommy

As someone who is just starting to get into animation, this is an interesting thread to read.  I'm very glad that I'm just starting to animate and don't have any preconceived notions about which figure works best!  Because you guys could scare a girl off!  Keep talking, though, because I'm fascinated by the content under discussion.  And, no, I haven't gotten past setting up cameras and getting doors to open and close so no figures yet.  Although, that is my next hurdle.

Ivy

Aww don't be scared off,  someone gotta show us old stick in the muds how new things work.. :)

Daywalker Designs

Ivy said:

daywalker03 said:

The problem, as I see it, is that if not enough people try to use Genesis 3 in their animation work, there won't be any incentive on the part of outside developers to support adding whatever is needed to their software to be able to use it. Waiting to see if the next generation Genesis model is compatible isn't going to help much.

Yea that is a unwanted side effect when compatibility is broke with currently working models & tools,  it take a long time to get traction going again.  as I stated in another thread , You can make animations with Genesis 3 just fine.  But in my opinion it will take a lot more work to do so than its worth,  because gen3 is fairly new and seriously lacking in the tools and plugins needed to create proper motion files and transfers those files into the pipeline of workflows that we have  that are meant for a older generation.figures ,  so everything Genesis 3 as it is now will have to be hand key framed and saved.  and that file will only be good for Genesis 3 &  not with your older generation figures. so the extra effort for those of us that already have working files for what does work makes people that already invested in animation bit more hesitant to rebuild for new character technology.  Knowing that all the work we do could be lost again with the next generations figure.

But on the hand it won't be as dramatic for a new person that is just starting out with daz and investing & using Genesis 3  for their animations because they are building their asset libraries anyway.   so when genesis4 comes out and it plays nice with g3 I can see incentives to rebuild my animation assets.  but if requires another work around. to make g3 work with g4 you can kiss future animation support good bye.

So your right its a "Real catch 22"

DraagonStorm made a utility to convert Genesis 2 aniblocks to work with Genesis 3, and worked with Zev0 to create similar utilities to convert V4/M4 and Genesis1/2 poses to work with Genesis 3, at least in DAZ Studio. What we don't have is a means to transfer G3 animated characters into other applications; I assume that the export tools from DAZ Studio already support this (I would hope so, at least), but the import tools in other applications do not support Genesis 3.

wolf359

"I think its very cool what your doing"

Thanks

"What we don't have is a means to transfer G3 animated characters into other applications; I assume that the export tools from DAZ Studio already support this (I would hope so, at least), but the import tools in other applications do not support Genesis 3."

Hi I am using MDD Exporter from Daz aniMate 2 to Export point level animation Data
to genesis obj files in maxon C4D.

The links I posted a few posts earlier show 
genesis meshes being driven by external MDD data.
This method would work for me to get Genesis 3 into C4D for rendering if I had any reason to
render a G3 figure in C4D.
But for reasons, already stated, I have no reason to even bother.
 

Cris Palomino

Wolf, the animation is working pretty well.  I admit, though, I had a very hard time understanding a lot of the vocals.  The bad guy had so much reverb I made out very little of what he said.  Some of the other characters had similar problems for me.  It's great to have other voices and try to make them otherworldly sounding, but if they can't be understood, it will detract from your story.    The underlying music score was very nice, too.

wolf359

Cris Palomino said:

Wolf, the animation is working pretty well.  I admit, though, I had a very hard time understanding a lot of the vocals.  The bad guy had so much reverb I made out very little of what he said.  Some of the other characters had similar problems for me.  It's great to have other voices and try to make them otherworldly sounding, but if they can't be understood, it will detract from your story.    The underlying music score was very nice, too.

Thanks Chris!!

and yes the Audio track is definately not final as I am still learning to work out
the right mixture (decible wise) between
the ambient underlying station noise that you always seem to hear aboard spacecraft in Sci fi
,the character vocals and the music soundtrack.
 Still much work to be done after all of the actual rendering is finished.

cryodragonus_0f748e6734

The reason I posted the question is there is some real awesome stuff available but it is only for DAZ Studio. The content I am interested in is alot of Sci-Fi and Fantasy and some Military, Vehicals, and Scenery content. Very little in Poser and it seems to get less and less. I dont use DAZ Studio very much but is it possible to export to other programes including Poser. Also have a big problem loading what content I have to DAZ Studio

(very buggy) any suggestions?

fixmypcmike

For most props exporting to cr2 should work fine even in older Poser versions.

adzan

Fixmypcmike said:

For most props exporting to cr2 should work fine even in older Poser versions.

I've purchased a few of the newer props and environment and sadly exporting as cr2 doesn't work well for the new items, most of which use daz studio specific features, like instancing etc etc which poser doesn't support, It really was a ton of extra work especially as many of the cr2s load with a lot of the sceen just dumped in the center. lol.

I don't purchase scenes from here anymore unless they support poser as it's a lot of money to spend on something that probably wont work in the software i prefer.