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Probably not too helpful...but there is at least one Unity BVH exporter. So it wouldn't be too far of a stretch to say that it is possible to use Unity, with its ability to do the facial animations to then export them into something Studio could use. But also consider, it's not quite been a year since G3F came out...and animations have never been a top priority, so is 11 months really enough time for a catalog to have been built up?
I seem to remember complaints about not enough for the Genesis 2 line even last summer...the 4th generation figures were out for so long that yeah a large catalog of premade clips was able to be built up. So to me, it's not a question of 'if', but rather one of 'when'.
That was a good demo I have "CGriver"in my sub list. He has some great videos tutorials on taking photo-realistic human facial textures using a cannon Powershot camera. But anyway that wasn't a g3 character, they were using his default character created in mudbox which is also a autodesk app. . there is a video of it on his channel somewhere when he made it... This video you showed was a demo reel showing what rigging can be done in Maya using the Snappers Facial Rig system", which is a Maya plugin to add rigging to the bones you create in Maya.. So that was not even close to what I meant too a daz studio animation ( you make me smile) what I meant was I like to see you do a daz studio animation with G3 using a plugin like lip-synce, or just hand key frame some Facial movements uses all the extra morphs, that can't be done with g2 . Rendered and created in Daz Studio. once you try that you will quickly relies what we are talking about. So you see comparison of Apples to Oranges.
I have Autodesk 2012 Student suite I got it when I was taking some beginner classes at Tennessee State University that were offered a few years back. I even got pretty good at making my own models But Alias I could not afford the full version at $5000 even with a 20% student upgrade discount...So g3 never worked in my version of Maya once I fxb the g3 model the rigging was lost same for g2 I can carry the bones over but not the rigging. they have to all be redone to work in Maya. Apples to Oranges
So your point of g3 may have the same amount of bone as CGriver Maya character maybe valid & the same details can be achieved. But its working with the model to get those extra details that makes it so not worth using & I assure you. no one is going to notice a few extra bones used in a smile in a animation created in daz studio. g2 compared to g3 in animation is Apples to Oranges
Its interesting you make this point because even genesis & g2 characters you could animate right out of the box with just a very minor tweak. it was the poser users that had taken notice of the changes mostly because it required dson and cried foul .. I know I was one of them. when we could use daz & poser side by side.. Also iits important to remeber Genesis and g2 figures will work with aniblocks, bvh files with just having to use a feet off set. They worked with lip-synic and other plugins as well. they work in Iclone and Carrera . But g3 not so much.. g3 is a totally different mesh breaking compatibility with the animations tools that we paid too use for our art form which is animation.., this new mesh makes g3 required to have a pretty extensive amount of work arounds to make it work in animation.which makes animating g3 not worth the effort and less will be developed for g3 use in animation in the future, because of less interest for animation. not because we don't want to. But because its not compatible with what we have already invested in our craft.. I seen some pose converter scripts that has interested me . But at this point I am assuming its just going to be a little over a year or so and genesis 4 will be out. So if I'm going to have to create new motions files and start with a new mesh model. I'll skip g3 and hope the next version of g4 will have more support for animation. if not then maybe by that time something new and shiny will be out that will make animation easier than daz studio. as it is now g3 is excellent for still art rendering. But its just to frustrating to work with in animation.
Also I like to make this point . I know people who use daz studio just for rendering still art could care less about people who animate using daz studio . never the less Animation is still a art form. and at one point was a equal priority to still graphics use. . So when daz3d. break compatibility with what still graphic people have purchased. its not notice by the "still graphic community" as much and has little to no effect on them or what they buy. because they are just rendering still art and compatibility is less of a issue for them. As where daz studio animators have a different investment invested in our content so we can use daz studio to create animation, which has a different requirement to make our art do able in daz studio. than still art rendering.. So you can see why. this can get very frustrating every time Daz comes out with a new mesh character that breaks all what we have invested and the compatibly to use it with other software and plugins as well. . so for our use these changes are very notice able and can be very costly when our content we have been using for our art form becomes useless. making it all that much harder for us to create our art form . Still graphic rendering or Animations it does not matter they are all art forms and daz3d,.com advertises it software as a animation suite software as well..
I hope that made sense in some way,..lol
OK Male M3dia if you want to go that route as an explanation ... daz introduced Genesis all those years back using a different weight mapping system than was used in Poser, making it INCOMPATABLE without a serious redesign of the program. Smith Micro chose not to SUPPORT Genesis because doing so would have left all of its customers that were using older versions of their program. So you are correct in a way, incompatibility is what led to Smith Micro not supporting Genesis. Tell me Male M3edia, what do you think daz would have done had the roles been reversed?
I could be wrong but Poser didn't have weight mapping when Genesis was released, SM when it introduced weight mapping in Poser 9 I think, choose to use a different system to DS. And as far as i'm aware its poossible to have two systems of weight mapping work DS I beleive does.
It's possible to have as many varieties of weightmapping as you are willing to put the effort into supporting. Blender has at least two...Studio has 3 (Tri-axial, General and Dual Quaternion).
I was a Poser user until the latest version. Poser was introducing weight mapping but it wasn't Triaxis (Think that was what Studio was using, but I could have the name wrong.) To make Genesis natively compatable in Poser would have required a complete rebuild of Poser.
Sorry but I don't really understand why Poser would have to have ' a complete rebuild ' as MJC1016 pointed out DS has 3 types of different weightmapping, the third introduced with Genesis 3 as far as I'm aware DS wasn't completly rebuilt, so the question still remains why didn't Poser get the Genesis 3 weightmapping with Poser 11.
It goes back to my comment to Male M3dia, Smith Micro chose to keep compatability between its many versions used by its customers than to break that to use what is now 3 figures. It was a move that I don't necessarily agree with.
However, you can support multiple forms of weightmapping and still keep compatibility with older content. Same with subdivision or any other standard you wish to keep. However, it's that compatibility that is generally causing issues with building figures using it, since you have to do the traditional rigging first, then add weightmapping to that.
It doesn't have to be an "either/or" situation.
Thank you Ivy!!
There seems to be a misunderstanding
of the nature of the "problem "with G3 regarding animation.
People who clearly are not animators seem to think we are complainig about a percieved lack of NEW canned motions for the genesis3 female in the DAZ store in the same way people complain about a lack of ethnic characters etc..
I ,at least, do not care about new canned motions in the store
I have a huge library of motion files going back to the Era a poser4 .
and these standard biped motions can be applied
to every DAZ biped humanoid up to the Genesis 2 models( with minor tweaks of course)
Also I CREATE NEW animation all the time using Iclone Pro & Natural Motions Endorphin(for ragdoll physics)
Again, every character motion I generate with my current toolset can be applied to every DAZ/poser rig
from P4 "Dork" up to DAZ genesis2.
and mixed ,edited ,reversed, sped up ,cropped ,slowed down with Iclone, DAZ animate plus,Keymate & Graphmate.
Now G3 can be animated manually and his/her motion can be saved in the various retargeting formats and eventually one could compile a decent libray of G3 specific motions.
But for me that is a huge step BACKWARDS and not worth the effort just to be using the latest genesis figure in my animation work.
On the matter of the new facial rig.
Just ask the owner of SKAMOTION if all those new Maya like face bones were any help as he spent weeks enduring the vicissitudes of trying to make the G3 female perform a simple sexy runway strut for a Daz promotion.
And he owns professional visual human motion capture hardware.
I'm confused certainly. This is because of the tone of your posts you are speaking as a professional animator, yet in order to do that you should able to make your on animations based on your preferred rig and save those for future use. That's not really a step back, that's really part of what professionals do. I don't proport myself as a professional, however if the need arises, I have to build what I need from scratch or alter things to fit needs. In short, differnent tech requires adjustment to that workflow. I've had to shift how I make my products with each generation, with Gen4 to Genesis being the biggest jump. Moving to genesis 3 is a jump as well as now I'm learning to texture to make appropriate textures for my products. I spent the first month or so playing with the figure and also rebuilting my library of resource I use (like feet, gens and glute morphs). However, that does mean some programs no longer work and either you have to look at other tools or not look at the tech and that's understandable. That said I have a copy of Iclone 5 pro as well, but I've never gotten around to using it, I did find a video that someone got genesis 3 into iclone 6 with the facial bones working.
Also note that iclone products is actually based on bone-based not morph-based animation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xVLlQpnwzA
I would doubt you would need to do facial expression in a walk only cycle. However, I would imagine that if he did G3 for animation, he would make a bit of money selling those facial animations as well.This indicates a certain lack of understanding of how character animation pipelines actually work
Like the users of Autodesk Max, Maya,SideFX Houdini & Newtek Lightwave our "preferred rigs " are the ones that work with our EXISTING tools ..it is a matter of efficiency.
Take a look at "Turbosquid"
Many poser/Daz users are puzzled why someone would pay $850 USD for a female model from that site when V4 or the G2 female looks "just as good or even better"
Well Daz licensing& usage issues aside,
The reason they buy/use those models from turbosquid is that they are rigged to seamlessly integrate with Autodesk's human IK system and are in native max or maya formats ready for use using the existing character animation tools in those pro pipelines. To use A DAZ model would require setting up animation controllers& Re-weighting and other MAX/MAYA native features that would amount to a complete re rig of the mesh each time you brought in one from DAZ/poser. this is before you could start animating.. not very efficient in deadline oriented $$client work$$ .
"That said I have a copy of Iclone 5 pro as well, but I've never gotten around to using it,"
In that case I humbly invite you to spend some time with Iclone pro to get a better perspective on how well it retargets Iclone character motion to G1/G2 as it has a built in Genesis template for one click retargeting
That genesis template he chooses in this video does NOT work with G3 requiring me to MANUALLY BONE MAP of the iclone real time rig to the FBX imported G3 rig
"I did find a video that someone got genesis 3 into iclone 6 with the facial bones working."
yes sir ...through MANUAL grunt work.
Iclone will import a FBX rig from any source but you lose the advantage of one click motion retargeting and are back to the same manual grunt work that the aforementioned Turbosquid customer would be doing if he opted for a poser/Daz rig instead of the perfectly compatible ,albeit $800+, one built for his existing tools
"Also note that iclone products is actually based on bone-based not morph-based animation."
As an Iclone pro user I am well aware of that... but understand this: I am not averse to doing some manual grunt work when send my character rig outside its native environment to apply some externally generated motion in fact I expect to have to do more work.
But lets forget about Maya & Iclone etc. for a moment as this is the DAZ Forum.
The true problem is that the ENTIRE G3 bone set up is no longer compatible with the automated character motion generation tools within its very own native program ..DAZ studio pro.
Please watch this short animation you will notice in the walk cycles I do use facial expressions.
these are g2 character with hand keyframes expressions, If I was using g3 it would have taken me 4 times longer to make this same video. and the results would have been the same as far the viewer POV was concerned.. i would have to create all new motion files for g3 that would not work with any of my other older characters, that is what makes it not worth my effort to work with g3. g3 does not work with the plugins we been using and no new replacements for the new g3 mesh.. . If you have been creating animations for any length of time you would notice right off its not worth the effort to work with a character set that is not supported with your current assets you have been building a long time. . And the notion that starting over buying and recreating new assets to satisfy a new character mesh that maybe fine for you "still art rending folks" but is worthless for us animators. that must have all the characters sets play nice with each other. still art is much diff rent that rendering animations one someone will never properly never understand if they never invested time and money into creating animations with daz studio
Edited for spelling sorry I'm dyslexic
in this animation I didn't need facial expressions
so g3 extra bone would have been lost . but I would have had to recreate all new motions files. sooo not worth it when I already have assets to work with.
Genesis was released around Poser 8, as I recall - certainly before Poser had weight-mapping (in Poser 9).
Both Poser and DS (now) use the OpenDubDiv libraries for weight mapped figures (though not all featuers are implemented across the board).
Poser can do single skin weight-mapping, and use separate maps for each axis (I think initially at least it didn't weight map some of the things DS did under TriAx - bulge maps, and possibly scale in some respect?)
Genesis 3 uses Dual Quaternion skinning (and only one map per joint), Poser does not support Dual Quaternions at this time.
Can you not save a rig for reuse? Doesn't that mean the manual grunt work only needs to be done once? (maybe twice...once for G3F and once for G3M...)
If not, then why does anyone actually buy rigged characters? And at some point, someone had to manually rig it something...and save it out for reuse.
What it boils down to...whether it's a library of premade motions or a ready made, adjusted rig...is it hasn't been done, until someone actually spends the time and does it!
Yea you can make new motions files for g3 I make them all the time for my older generations set. . But its a lot of work doing so and not worth it if it only going to work for one type of character mesh g2 gensis and gen4 characters can all use the same motions files . that s why I said I was going to skip g3 and start new with g4 which I'm hoping will work with the g3 mesh. .. if so then I will have 2 character sets to make motions files for making it worth my time making new motions files. .. as it now. Asset building is a long and expensive process and something like model builders have to consider the time and effort in making them equal worth the return you get .. at this point no! the return I would get back for making g3 motions files would be little to no benefit to me, because it would only be good for the g3 model set. when there are 2 or more character sets, then the option of rebuilding assets libraries is more plausible.
And if everyone else is taking the same approach, too?
There won't be anything until the next generation...if it is compatible.
And if everyone else is taking the same approach, too?
There won't be anything until the next generation...if it is compatible.
I would guess whenever g4 shows up, you would still need to do the same things you should have done to get G3 working. I would guess there wouldn't be a shift back giving the popularity of the figure.
thats what happens when you break compatibility with what is already working. its a unwanted side effect. It maybe even possiable that daz may phase out animation support in the future. if the animation use drops enough.
This has been a very fun discussion I really appreciated the respect and the intelligent comment this thread has produced .
I have gotta go for a job interview working in a dentist office in another town. so I'll catch up with ya all when get back.
Actually from what you've stated, Genesis 3 is actually compatible with iclone and other tools, but it requires additional work that you wish done for you as you consider it grunt work. I think that's far different from the assertion that Genesis 3 doesn't work at all. Also considering I had bought iclone5 at its release, yet I didn't receive a file for using the program with genesis 2 until the release of iclone 6, chances are you would have had to rig for the new figures anyway. So really genesis 3 isn't really that different, though I'm not expecting any support from the company as they're pushing their own figures and no longer sell here.
that is right and when g4 shows up and IF its compatible with the g3 figures then it would be worth development of motions files for animation for 2 character sets . but if the g4 and g3 sets are totally different and break compatibility with each other then you can kiss animation support good bye
"Actually from what you've stated, Genesis 3 is actually compatible with iclone and other tools, but it requires additional work that you wish done for you as you consider it grunt work."
Then it is a matter of ones personal definition of
"compatible"
Iclone with the 3DXchange pipeline tool has always
been able to import FBX rigs exported from other programs but so has Autodesk motion builder and other
tools.
What made Iclone attractive to Daz animators was the
feature displayed in the attached image.( read what it says)
This is DIRECT SUPPORT for the Daz genesis models
in iclone for realtime motionbuilding with a pipeline back to DS with lipsynch.
also the built in daz genesis template in 3DXchange will auto retarget iclone motion
to any poser imported BVH going back as far as Mike2
for use in poser as custom BVH files
So what you consider "wanting work done for me"
I would call it efficiency in my workflow
you know... like how our beloved autofit
is so much less "grunt work" than manually rigging
every single new clothing item
"I think that's far different from the assertion that Genesis 3 doesn't work at all."
indeed that is why I never stated that G3 Does not work at all. it simply is not compatible with the existing
character motion generation tools of DAZ studio itself.
"Also considering I had bought iclone5 at its release, yet I didn't receive a file for using the program with genesis 2 until the release of iclone 6, chances are you would have had to rig for the new figures anyway."
Not understanding this statement at all.
If you Bought Iclone 5 and the 3D Xchange 5 pipeline tool the Daz genesis Auto retarget option was already present in your 3DXchange program.
" So really genesis 3 isn't really that different",
Take a Daz animate aniblok made for G2 and apply it
to G3 and watch the results before making that statement.
"though I'm not expecting any support from the company as they're pushing their own figures and no longer sell here."
Sad... but likely true Terrence.. and honestly they needed better looking native figures so i understand their new direction.
And since most of the "DAZ Animation" tools are made by third parties that have not yet updated their products, that's to be expected. The comment that Male-M3dia made about iClone 5 was pretty specific in reference to Genesis 2 import, at least that's the way I read it. And since there are tools that can convert existing aniblocks to ones that can work with Genesis 3, the only real issue is exporting the models to outside motion manipulation tools, since it seems they don't yet support Genesis 3.
As an animator, I find this thread very "interesting". What I see is people talking around each other.
Genesis3 is as "animatable" as any other boned/mesh figure, one could argue that it is more animatable than the Genesis generations prior because DAZ moved it toward the "standards" that are used in the industry. However, Genesis3 is not as compatible with the previous tools that many were used to using. That is the cost of advancement.
The lack of Genesis3 support in the iClone DAZ Genesis importer is unfortunate, but not a killer since the layout of Genesis3 is more conducive to the use of default industry tools.
My animations that involve "human" models are based on Genesis1 and Genesis2 for the most part. I have models that exist in both forms (using GenX2 to make the forms/shapes available for Genesis2) so that, as necessary, I can use whichever works best for the situation. For closeups, G2 is preferred since the model simply looks better for detail, but I find Genesis1 is easier to work with in the general animation. Some of the models also have Generation4 forms because they date back to before Genesis, and when necessary those are also used, but far less than they were in the past.
My point is that this bickering over which model(s) are the best is silly. The best one is the one that makes the *scene* work best. Limiting oneself to one model, one tool, one anything is silly. These are all tools folks -- use the one that gets the job done and don't worry about the other stuff. Once the job is done and billed does it really matter?
I will say this: The reason that I use the Genesis series of models is because NO OTHER human model series allows for the speed and efficiency of getting from idea to implementation as fast. Getting Genesis into other software (for the most part) is not a problem once the initial work is done.
The real "fun" coming up as far as animation goes is getting my partner's animals to move realistically. Looking at you "Jungle Book" :)
Kendall, and by proxy Alexa (CG and Animation student at Purdue University)
Yes, Genesis 2 support wasn't rolled out until Iclone 6 and the added the support to iclone 5 as well. I did have to email realillusion about updating my account (since I originally bought it from DAZ and transferred the account there) with the duf file used to export genesis 2 from DAZ for importing into Iclone. So since it took them about 2 years to update the files to make it easier to import the figures I didn't play with it as much. That said, if I wanted to manually create the rigging I probably could have done that as well. But considering I was spending way more time in zbrush, its not a priority especially since I'm not particually interested in animating anything at this point.