You've been heard. Response re: 4.9 and Encryption
This discussion has been closed.
Daz 3D is part of 
Connect
DAZ Productions, Inc.
7533 S Center View Ct #4664
West Jordan, UT 84084
Licensing Agreement | Terms of Service | Privacy Policy | EULA
© 2025 Daz Productions Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Comments
...already fixed and shows as free in my cart (14:51 PST)
And it still contains a PP2 version as well as the DUf.
Downloaded through DIM on my Desktop. Keeping the laptop as close to pure Connect as possible just because I don't want to go through what I went through getting it to Connect.
Well again I'm just basing it on my own experiences. I'm certainly not saying that there aren't good products at the other stores, but in general I'm been much more satisfied with the quality of items I've bought at DAZ than elsewhere. Usually I'll look for stuff by a merchant that I'm already familiar with from his or her items at DAZ anyway (like OutofTouch, Merlin, etc).
Glad to see the Toll Booth glitch was fixed. This morning I avoided it, but just picked it up now, and in the process saw the flash sale for Polish and spent some money over there. So a win for Daz3D.
However, as others have pointed out, your track record for getting these new wonderful items out with the correct Encrypted / Not Encrypted and Connect Only / Not Connect Only details and configuration is not confidence inspiring. I would have assumed that, knowing the potential backlash, DAZ would be trying to make these early days as smooth and error-free as possible, but that does not seem to be the case.
Excellent, many thanks for the fix! \o/
It really depends on what the actual sales counts are like. I've seen some numbers for some things but no official product numbers, and no daily unique numbers. Then again I can only imagine that there is only a handful of users who spend the big bucks that have stuck around for years (as opposed to high turnover grab a few things then move on) and I wouldn't be surprised to see a larger than 5% number of those long time users reading or posting in this thread.
I would love to know how much of recent profits this thread represents (I'm not saying it'd be big; just interesting.) Sadly Daz keeps all the fun information to themselves.
Not that it matters either way, of course. 1% of your community crying out means that 1% of your community is crying out. It doesn't say anything about what the other 99% is thinking, be it good or bad.
Also while I know it's mainly a few regulars posting a lot in this thread, I've seen a number of people who have claimed to be long time purchasers that I've never seen on the forums before posting, maybe 1-2 new ones per day. So it's really not as simple as slating things for or against or whatever.
The only gadge we have to actually sales data is the "What's Hot" list. My guess is a product needs around $1000 of sales to get to the top of this list, this guess is based on one time seeing a $900 product jump (for 1 day) to the top of the list, and I am assuming (maybe incorrectly) that 1 sale of that high ticket item had taken place. So for example today the "Northern Terrace Street" is number 1, and at $3.5 (assuming most buyers are PC+ members) that would mean at least 300 or so sales. This roughly fits in with what some PA's have hinted regarding good day one sales figures. Naturally this is nothing more than an educated guess, and should be consumed with a healthy dose of salt.
Personally i have nothing against the encryption. As long as they are marking the releases accordingly, i can decide on an item-by-item basis if i would buy it or not. The same as for other items. Daz might just as well say "our sales team has found out, that pirates do copy bikinis less than other items, therefore we will release every other item in a bikini-version only". So less piracy, no harm done for anyone (except for the people, who irrationally refuse to render bikinis, who probably are the minority anyway).
What i find far more interesting is the fact, that DazConnect uses the actual user account name and password for its connect. That opens a lot of possibilities what can be done with DS4. I mean, i could hack DS4.8 and the best piece of data i could get out of it is its serial number. I could use that serial number to .... hm, only to run DS4, which is free anyway; how boring.
On the other hand if i can hack DS4.9 with (an enabled) DazConnect in it, in addition to the serial number, i will also get an account name and a password, that seems much more valueable. I could use that to sniff around the orders of the user, get a real name, posting spam and whatnot. I might even get lucky and the user has used the same password for other sites which i could try out.
There is also some kind of builtin browser within the smart content panel in DS4.9. I mean: it looks like a browser, but it has not that warning that pops up if the https-certification failed, although i did not try that. If i hacked into DS4.9 i would swap that out against my own version anyway. I wonder if someone could be that trusty to enter their credit card info into it. Probably no one, but it might be worth trying.
So basic question is: how hard is it to hack into DS4.9? Likely the easiest way is using the plugin-mechanism. Several third party plugins are already available. I guess not even Daz knows what these plugins do exactly. There is even a Reality plugin available on renderosity, completely out of Daz's control. So after the next time renderosity gets hacked, that plugin might not do the exactly the same as it did before renderosity got hacked. The user's best bet then is probably to completely remove their Daz account (and create a new one). And there is also a question connecting it to the encryption-problem: When i remove my account (which might be necessary in such a case), how do i get my licenses back?
In summary DazConnect might scare away some pirates, but creates a big security hole, which might attract a whole different kind of computer criminals, who are capable of doing much more damage if they succeed. Anyone can put some 1Mio Vicky-outfits on a czech server and nobody cares, but steal 100,000 user accounts and you will get mentioned on CNN.
That sound pretty sound to me, based off similar observations.
Dats some scary stuff.
I will buy what I need from wherever; I own some stuff I bought spur-of-the-moment. I did it as it was part of the fun, but I didn't need it, and may even have decided against if I'd allowed more time. This debacle over 4.9 (mainly the DRM) has spoilt that. Daz took away the fun.
So now I always spend more time, and since 4.9, most days it's nope; and instead I've bought stuff elsewhere.
So will I buy items from Daz, especially if it's not available elsewhere?
Yes, as long as it is not DRM.
On reflection, this is a huge point for me too. I'm sure my wallet's happy that I'm now taking a step back and evaluating each purchase much more carefully, but it's so dull.
Sound plausable.
Security vulnerabilities are what other folks than pirates do.
Even happier I've disabled all aspects of Connect and placed Daz in the high secure section of my security software; it might not be enough.
Yes I am paranoid, but as I've said before; Edward Snowdon showed me I wasn't being paranoid enough.
I'm interested do you use DAZ Studio to make a living, what the main purpose or is it just a hobby?
I'm not wanting a fight just trying to get an idea of the people here.
Hobyists and commercial users both utilise its features, and post on the forums.
I've created two book covers with it. Other than that it's for fun. So both.
That's good you're a person who can see it from both sides. Thanks!
I understand Daz wanting to protect their property, and that PAs would also be keen to do it.
I question the viability of DRM. Only time will tell if it works for Daz.
It's easy to find instances of where DRM has gone wrong for customers, and there are some pretty spectacular examples out there. There aren't however, any examples of customers expressing how valuable DRM is; I've no idea if they exist. I'm guessing, therefore, that at best it has no impact for customers.
There are a small number of posters expressing support; the majority seem against. There is no way to know if that is suggestive of the Daz customer base, and is likely too small a number to be considered viable. One aspect that is obvious, both those in support of Daz's actions, and those against, have all had their hobby or work affected by this - even if it is just emotionally. That is very sad. Folks had fun, posted comments, bought stuff and maybe even created some art. That seems to have become secondary for a number who are quite vocal - of which I must admit to being one.
I'd say most of my purchases are emotional. I already have all the things I actually need (actually just the base figures and the paid morph packs would have been plenty, and I now know that much is available elsewhere if needed.) I buy things because they look cool, or because I might find a use for it one day, or because a PA said or did something nice somewhere for someone. My spending habits are completely irrational, but also very important to me (because licencing.)
So I'm spending measurable money but not for measurable reasons. So I imagine that sort of thing is a nightmare for a marketer to try and figure out?
It is, and it is also a consideration that those emotional spending habits can be unduly affected by Daz's actions (in this case). It certainly has with me.
If the Daz Store was a grocery, I'd be the person that loads up their shopping buggy with a bunch of stuff then leave it in the middle of the aisle and walk out of the store.
I've been emptying my cart daily. Can't stop shopping, but did stop pressing the "Checkout" button.
See I like to see who people are what drive their choices and where they are coming from. Once emotions take over there not much you can do about it, they sweep you along. We are all allowed to express ourselves. Long as people understand that vendors and the forum mods have nothing to do with the decisions of the company. We are along for the ride and can only do what we are told. The only thing that will sway the company is the sales data so that's all you can do let your wallet do the talking for you.
I can't imagine anyone buys a product because it has DRM. People buy DRMd products because they don't care, don't know about or notice the DRM because they never try stepping outside the lines of the imposed limits, or because that's the only way to get a particular item. But nobody I've ever heard of has said they want to buy something that has more restricted usage and imposed limitations than similar products without DRM.
If any of the supporters of the DRM are buying encrypted products, I doubt the DRM was the reason why. It just wasn't a reason not to buy. Which is fine. Your purchase, your reasons. My purchases are for my reasons.
But yes, it has soured the fun I had looking at the wonderful creations in the store and occasionally buying one or two on impulse.
I've also made the occasional bit of money at this, both for artwork and for content I've sold at the other stores. (I really should try making items again. Would be cool to be a vendor again.)
Sorry for a non-sequitur. Spending the limited time I am up to using the computer trying to actually do some stuff so not following the forums. Dropped in only because of confusion at seeing the free Toll Booth I'd 'bought' this morning before realising my mistake when I noticed it was encrypted/Connect only after purchase suddenly turn up in DIM. See there's been a change of heart and/or wire-uncrossing; upset my +1 this morning might be seen as support for Connect/Encryption. Nothing has changed here, nothing will change here, i will not buy encrypted content, I will not install a DS that supports encryptioon of content and DRM. Ever.
Search on 'toll booth' brought me to this thread. Have only read first page and last. Cannot read more. But having read the first post in the thread I just want to say something in reply, even though it is very belated, and even though I'm sure no-one of inportance at DAZ will read it, or take any note even if they do.
From the first post in this thread by DAZ_Steve:
And this helps a user who is not a 'developer' but very frequently has DS .duf and data .dsf files (and Poser cr2 and pp2 and pz2 files) open in a text editor for assorted reasons exactly how? In the last week I've found, understood and fixed bugs in two separate DAZ store products I've bought, as well as adding functionality to a couple more, modifed three others, and I have three .dsf files opened in tabs in TextPad right now i'll be getting back to after I've post this?
I have been opening, studying, bug fixing, expanding and modifying my 3D content files since I started in 2004, originally Poser, now the duf/dsf format too. It is an integral part of my work flow, and taking it away removes about nine-tenths of the use I have for the content I buy (which is very, very, very rarely to use 'as is out of the can' ... or out of the zip file, rather - I don't shop going 'ooh, that's nice, I want to do a render with that'; I start with pictures - more accurately a film - in my head with no regard to my content library, and shop going ''ho hum - if I buy that, I can take that bit of it, alter it like that, mix it with that converted from that, transfer the whatsit from that into the mix and finally have that thing I need for that'). And basically taking away nine-tenths of the flexibility and use for products makes them not worth buying. And that's not even counting all the bugs I find in the content from the store - DAZ Own and PA alike - which i need fixed pronto, and get fixed pronto by the simple expedient of locating the bug and fixing it myself. And believe me in the 12 years I've been a customer here that's the only way i've found of getting bugs fixed pronto - I mostly gave up on DAZ customer support or contacting PAs a long time ago after endless bad experiences - and there are more than a few products still in the store, still with bugs in them after YEARS even though I didn't just do the normal 'hey there's something not quite right aabout product X' but submitted a detailed explanation of EXACTLY what the bug was, instructions for how to see it, line references to the bug in the product's data files and an exact description of what the syntax/forumula/whatever mistake is and what correction fixes it.
No. When I hit bugs in content, I need them fixed straight away, which I can do myself WHEN THE FILE ISN'T ENCRYPTED. The very best content bug fix I've had from DAZ was 48 hours, which was 47 hours too long for the need. And that was the exception. Usually it was weeks or months, or - frequently - never.
I need unecypted files I can process in a text editor for much of the use I make of the products for renders. And I need them for finding and fixing bugs. In theory some of what i do in a text editor can be done in the DS interface, in practice not so much. The last DAZ store content bug I found and fixed, as usual I first relaised there was a problem from what i was seeing in the viewport, but as an experiment and not like usual I tired to figure out exactly what the fault was and fix it within DS. After 15 minutes I still only knew vaguely where the fault was and was in too much pain to go on. When the pain subsided and I went back to it i loaded a handful of the products data .dsf files into my text editor in tabs, flipped between them, and saw the fault, fixed it and saved the edited file in a total of less than 90 seconds. The DS interface is fine for somethings but really sucks for others, especially allowing comaprisons of things that immediately show certain classes of bug all too common ins tore products (especially fauly formulae in a few out of a lot of morph files in a product of a lot of morphs). And there are other things one simply can't do in teh DS interface (at least without being able to write complex scripts, which I can't). For one thign i was doinf, I've needed to look at the actual UV coordinates of two different items side-by-side, identify corresponding points despite the fact that they did not share vertex-identical meshes, and copy coordinates from one to the other; on another occasion, put up two morph dsfs and delete all morph delta lines for vertices appearing in one from the other to create a new version of the second morph that's had a sepecific part of its influence removed. There is no way to carry out either operation in DS.
So, I am one of the customers you are abandoning. i won't buy DRMeed content on principal; but even leaving that aside, I WILL NOT BUY ENCRYPTED CONTENT. EVERY render I set out to do, i end up opening dsf files in a text editor as part of the process to manipulate the content from what it starts pout as into what I need. And at least once a week I end up opening dsf and/or duf files in a text editor as part of tracing and fixing a bug I've just run headlong into and need fixing righ then (or a workaround at leastm which i can often find looking at the dsf if i can;t fix it), not next week, next month, nexxt year, never.
If you wish to keep me as a customer at least for now, then:
1 Provide a store option to exclude encrypted content from the view.
2 Will you PLEASE on the product page change the silly Compatible Software listing to the MINIMUM version of the software needed by the product. When you released 4.9 it was just stupid that every DS product had the Compatible Software listing go to 4.9 when most of it hadn't changed and still worked in 4.8, or 4.6, or 4.0, or DS 3 or in some cases even DS 2. I WILL NOT INSTALL A DS VERSION THAT CONTAINS A DRM AND/OR CONTENT ENCYPTION FUNCTION. Ever. If that means staying on 4.8 until I die (which isn't likely to be that many years) or until I find Poser an attractive proposition again, or until some new competitor arises I fancy changing too, so be it, While you still have products in the store that still work in DS 4.8, do you really not want me and people like me who stay with 4.8 to NOT buy 4.8 compatible content? What sense is that for your balance sheet? Just for heavens sake label your products with MINIMUM DS required versions (or '4.9+ Only' for everything that won't work in 4.8 at least).
Of course, although I've bought every Genesis 3 product I thought might help, and have repeatedly run extensive comparison tests of Genesis 3 against Genesis 2, re-running after each new thing came out for Genesis 3 that I thought might make a difference, I think everything is out now that might help and I've reached the final definitive conclusion that on the factors that matter to ME (compatibility with 'industry standard' UV systems or weight-mapping systems or whatever don't matter to me in the slightest as I don't have a 'pipeline' to other software other than Poser and Hexagon) Genesis 2 beats Genesis 3 quite soundly on 3 out of the 4 factors I judge the usability of the figures on (or 4 out of 5, depending on whether I count two as separate or part of the same uber-factor). And frankly your dropping of Triax for General weight mapping really sucks (Did you know that while many PAs didn't manage to rig Genesis 2 trousers/pants for a good full box-splits sdie-to-side on the thighs without hideous texture distortion, SOME did manage it with Triax, as have I fixing up some that didn't; but with the Genesis 3 General weight-mapping I don't have a SINGLE pair of trousers that can do that bend without hideous results, including some items from PAs who managed fine with their Genesis 2 version but just couldn't on the Genesis 3?). So I won't be buying much future Genesis 3 stuff unless it's something I really want to convert to (and think will easily convert to) Genesis 2. So whole swathes of your new releases don't aappeal to me anyway. But there's still older store content and SOME (non-Genesis 3) new stuff I'll buy IF YOU JUST MAKE IT EASY FOR PEOPLE LIKE ME IN THE STORE to know what is encrypted, what isn't, what needs a DS 4.9 (or later in future) and what doesn't.
So to the thread title: bottom line - No, I don't think I've been heard, Or I've been ignored.
(N.B. Please nobody reply expecting a conversation with me. The simple act of concentrating and typing a post causes sufficient increased pain and mental fog that afterwards I will be laid up entirely incapable of typing or focusing enough to read and understand a post or email for several days (which is the state I'm in most of the time). And the meds fog my memory badly - by the time I'm up to reading and/or typing again I'll have forgotten all about this thread and that I've made a post in it. I am no longer able to follow the forums, and mostly do not.)
Daz wanted a test, Daz got a test.
How many people downloaded it when it was marked as encrypted?
How many after the "encrypted" tag was removed?
There's your test.
How many "returns" on a free item?
Yes, DRM is an area where Daz has little, if any, experience. There are bound to be mistakes in the initial rollout. I'm no fan of DRM, and will never buy it, but these errors don't count for much.
Very much +1'd.
Mind you, it'll only be a valid test if the sales figures can differentiate between pre-fix and post-fix purchases. If they can't, or don't, then the whole thing is a badly misleading waste of time.
I don't think that will tell much of anything. It was only encrypted for a few hours. It will be free and unencrypted for a whole week, won't it? That timing alone should cause a much larger download of the unencrypted file.
I canceled my PC+ membership and will be spending my dollars elsewhere once it expires.
Agreed. It won't tell much when the error was found before US morning and then properly fixed around US afternoon of the item's first day online.
I can't decide if I want the free toll booth because it now has a certain memorabilia value to it, or if I don't want it because it makes me sad.