Daz Studio 4.9 Daz Original Figure Skin Material Optimization

24

Comments

  • KhoryKhory Posts: 3,847

    Keep in mind it was a Iray issue that got fixed not a Daz issue and keeping a flaw was just not a good idea. Yes, we are having to deal with the change but that is just how it works sometimes to get better results going forward. I've just spent the last week working on lights and using the v7 skin and the difference is really astonishing.

  • argel1200argel1200 Posts: 677
    edited February 2016

    I understand that, but they could have had a much lengthier discussion on how to tweak materials for the new Iray version, looked into including both rendering engines in the product, or looked into making it possible to keep DS4.8 installed, or maybe even looked into creating e.g. a special shader or a script to adjust for the change. Instead it looks like they put minimal effort into it, treating the Material change as not a big deal, when for some projects people are working on it it can be a huge issue. If I am going to have to re-render half of the scenes in a graphic novel for visual consisetncy I do not care how good V7 looks now.

    Post edited by argel1200 on
  • KhoryKhory Posts: 3,847

    Hrmm.. Ah well it was always  possible to have 4.8 and 4.9 on the same computer by having 4.9 as a beta. And we had plenty of time to test to see how different the change would make skins look. As far as lengthier discussions there is a thread here: http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/54239/fiddling-with-iray-skin-settings/p1 It isn't all about the fix of course but does start addressing it as soon as 4.9 went into beta and we were aware of the fix. As to having both a flawed and unflawed render engine in the software at the same time I think it would have been very confusing for most users. I wonder if you might not be able to solve part of your problem with light adjustments. I've just spent a week lighting V7 so I know for a fact that she looks very different under different lighting situations.

  • I don't run betas, and that would not be appropriate for a serios project. It seems the whole professional vs. hobbyiest way of doing things is a major stumbling block here at DAZ, in the forums, etc. sad

  • FWIW, here's what tech support finally came back with for Jade. Have not had a chance to really try it out much yet:

    The suggestion from the dev team on this one is to take the "Translucency Weight" down to .5 and increase the red of the "Translucency Color". While it isn't going to be exactly the same as 4.8, you might get a little closer to 4.8.

  • KhoryKhory Posts: 3,847
    argel1200 said:

    I don't run betas, and that would not be appropriate for a serios project. It seems the whole professional vs. hobbyiest way of doing things is a major stumbling block here at DAZ, in the forums, etc. sad

    Really? You would be astonished how serious I take my work.. and yes I even thought I was a professional.. Learn something every day huh?

  • Khory said:
    argel1200 said:

    I don't run betas, and that would not be appropriate for a serios project. It seems the whole professional vs. hobbyiest way of doing things is a major stumbling block here at DAZ, in the forums, etc. sad

    Really? You would be astonished how serious I take my work.. and yes I even thought I was a professional.. Learn something every day huh?

    I was talking about markets and the workflows, paradigms, requirements, etc. that go along with them, such as consistent visuals (you wouldn't expect the Na'Vi in Avator to suddenly become paler halfway through, right?).  Sorry if I was not clear on that.

  • KhoryKhory Posts: 3,847

    Perhaps think about it from a more "real world angle" what would they do if an actress had a day at the beach or was feeling ill? One option would be makeup, which for us would more than likey mean adjustment to skin tone. The other option is adjusting the lighting to compensate for the changes. If she is paler you can warm her up by adjusting the lighting for more warmth and if she has gotten tanner you can do an adjustment with cooler lighting to pull out some of that warmth. It actually takes some pretty minimal color shifts in the lighting to make those changes.

  • argel1200argel1200 Posts: 677
    edited February 2016

    Sure there are workarounds, but that doesn't change my point that DAZ did not (imo) give enough weight to problems introduced by the change. Edit: Anyway, I will try the suggestes from DAZ, and like you said, maybe tweak some lighting. Thanks for the suggestions.

    Post edited by argel1200 on
  • Like DavidGB, I have zero interest in upgrading from 4.8 to 4.9.

    Here is my Question: IF I go ahead and purchase the Michale 7 Package and the Victoria 7 Package Will They Work using DS4.8?

    I do not want to waste my money on them IF They Do Not Work with DS4.8.

    Using M7 & V7 will OT encourage me to upgrade to DS4.9.

    If V7 & M7 will workwith DS4.8, Please let me know and if there are any special hoops I need to jump through.

    Thank You

     

     

     

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 8,247

    They work fine in 4.8 but the iRay settings for many of the skin packs have been updated to fix the issues that popped up for many, including me.  So my upgrade was more for the iRay fixes and yea, my personal categories in the Smart Content area  are now grouped into some umbrella group called Local User which pisses me off but I just don't use Smart Content now.... *sigh*

  • KhoryKhory Posts: 3,847

    Skin that has been upgraded has a regular setting and a legacy setting for out of date versions of studio.

  • argel1200 said:

    It's like DAZ doesn't care about anyone working on a multi-render project such as a graphic novel where consistency matters. Frustrating to say the least. angry crying

    Exactly my problem!  I have 4.8 renders that look sunny and bright and all the skin tones work fine and now after 4.9 I cant get many to match and all my lights are not working as they once had.  Everything is dark and lacking in contrast.  FIX THIS G%[email protected]$$*^!!!

  • Choronzon said:
    argel1200 said:

    It's like DAZ doesn't care about anyone working on a multi-render project such as a graphic novel where consistency matters. Frustrating to say the least. angry crying

    Exactly my problem!  I have 4.8 renders that look sunny and bright and all the skin tones work fine and now after 4.9 I cant get many to match and all my lights are not working as they once had.  Everything is dark and lacking in contrast.  FIX THIS G%[email protected]$$*^!!!

    Have you opened a support ticket to report your issue, which others are not reporting (at least in these terms)? Have you checked that your light and render settings - especially Tone Mapping - match?

  • outrider42outrider42 Posts: 1,119

    Rather than asking people to completely redo their lighting in every scene they have saved previously in 4.8, Daz 4.9 could use a render option that emulates Daz 4.8. Notice I said "emulate." That would would be the best way, and it would tempt a whole lot of holdouts to finally make that upgrade to 4.9.

  • Rather than asking people to completely redo their lighting in every scene they have saved previously in 4.8, Daz 4.9 could use a render option that emulates Daz 4.8. Notice I said "emulate." That would would be the best way, and it would tempt a whole lot of holdouts to finally make that upgrade to 4.9.

    The change is in Iray - if nVidia didn't provide a switch to turn the bug back on then there's nothing Daz can do at that level, and I'm not sure that it would be possible to write a custom SSS routine in a shader that woudl mimic the bug (and if it was it would be extrremely slow, I imagine).

  • ToyenToyen Posts: 1,602

    I have noticed one thing with the new presets which is the case of many figures except for maybe Gia.

    The make-up face textures and their settings do not often match the rest of the figure's body when applying the new skin preset.

     

     

  • FixmypcmikeFixmypcmike Posts: 17,301
    Toyen said:

    I have noticed one thing with the new presets which is the case of many figures except for maybe Gia.

    The make-up face textures and their settings do not often match the rest of the figure's body when applying the new skin preset.

    Do you mean they don't match the 4.9 version or the 4.8 version?

  • ToyenToyen Posts: 1,602

    If you apply the 4.9 full body preset and then change the face to a texture with make up, the make up textures often do not match the 4.9 preset which is on the rest of the body.

  • I would suggest applying makeup and so on, then hold down the ctrl key (cmd for a Mac) and apply the updated materials choosing Ignore for maps in the dialogue that opens.

  • ToyenToyen Posts: 1,602

    Thanks Richard, I guess that's always an option. I just thought they forgot to include it since Gia 7 has both options for make up maps as well but the other figures don't.

  • jakibluejakiblue Posts: 5,689

    Toyen, have you put in a bug report/support ticket for that? I hadn't realized that happened, and would prefer it NOT to happen, rather than having to do a work around :) 

    Toyen said:

    Thanks Richard, I guess that's always an option. I just thought they forgot to include it since Gia 7 has both options for make up maps as well but the other figures don't.

     

  • ToyenToyen Posts: 1,602

    I don't think it's a bug. Rather the SSS map and settings for the make up faces do not look good with the rest of the body even thoough Daz artists thought it might : )

  • outrider42outrider42 Posts: 1,119

    Rather than asking people to completely redo their lighting in every scene they have saved previously in 4.8, Daz 4.9 could use a render option that emulates Daz 4.8. Notice I said "emulate." That would would be the best way, and it would tempt a whole lot of holdouts to finally make that upgrade to 4.9.

    The change is in Iray - if nVidia didn't provide a switch to turn the bug back on then there's nothing Daz can do at that level, and I'm not sure that it would be possible to write a custom SSS routine in a shader that woudl mimic the bug (and if it was it would be extrremely slow, I imagine).

    That's why I said emulate. Daz built this boat by chaining themselves to a 3rd party renderer, so they have to deal with the consequences. If they had plans to upgrade to a newer version, they owe it to their customers to make sure there is a way to create the same render they could before without having to redo every single scene they ever made in 4.8. If it was a glitch, it is absurd that so many characters were released being optimised for a glitch. It doesn't matter if this is nvidia's fault, Daz chose to focus on iray. They should not have released a new Genesis figure before upgrading to a new iray. By releasing 4.9 right in the middle of a Genesis 3 cycle, they opened up a can of worms for anybody who had an ongoing project with models optimized for 4.8. There are still people who refuse to upgrade to 4.9 due to this change. If Daz is going to try and push people to upgrade to 4.9, then they should do everything they can to make people want to upgrade. They could add a value called "Iray 4.8 Lighting." This is based on a percentage scale. What it does is universally alter the lighting colors based on the difference between 4.8 and 4.9. Sliding this scale will adjust all the lights. Maybe it could be a script? I'm just throwing out ideas. It may not be 100% accurate all the time, but it could at least give users a starting point to make some final tweaks. This would be particularly helpful to newer users who are lost on lighting by letting them see what values are changing so they can zero in on what to do.
  • Rather than asking people to completely redo their lighting in every scene they have saved previously in 4.8, Daz 4.9 could use a render option that emulates Daz 4.8. Notice I said "emulate." That would would be the best way, and it would tempt a whole lot of holdouts to finally make that upgrade to 4.9.

    The change is in Iray - if nVidia didn't provide a switch to turn the bug back on then there's nothing Daz can do at that level, and I'm not sure that it would be possible to write a custom SSS routine in a shader that woudl mimic the bug (and if it was it would be extrremely slow, I imagine).

     

    That's why I said emulate. Daz built this boat by chaining themselves to a 3rd party renderer, so they have to deal with the consequences. If they had plans to upgrade to a newer version, they owe it to their customers to make sure there is a way to create the same render they could before without having to redo every single scene they ever made in 4.8. If it was a glitch, it is absurd that so many characters were released being optimised for a glitch. It doesn't matter if this is nvidia's fault, Daz chose to focus on iray. They should not have released a new Genesis figure before upgrading to a new iray. By releasing 4.9 right in the middle of a Genesis 3 cycle, they opened up a can of worms for anybody who had an ongoing project with models optimized for 4.8. There are still people who refuse to upgrade to 4.9 due to this change. If Daz is going to try and push people to upgrade to 4.9, then they should do everything they can to make people want to upgrade. They could add a value called "Iray 4.8 Lighting." This is based on a percentage scale. What it does is universally alter the lighting colors based on the difference between 4.8 and 4.9. Sliding this scale will adjust all the lights. Maybe it could be a script? I'm just throwing out ideas. It may not be 100% accurate all the time, but it could at least give users a starting point to make some final tweaks. This would be particularly helpful to newer users who are lost on lighting by letting them see what values are changing so they can zero in on what to do.

    That wouldn't work - the change does not affect all surface properties, which is why not all items with iray shaders need updating, so a global change to lighting would do more harm than good. Your suggestion would require a custom set of SSS code that woudl be in the shader and not the rednerer, and so would be much slower (assuming it is even possible to do that effectively).

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 28,172
    Sorel said:
    kyoto kid said:

    ...so what about Genesis and G2 skins? Will they also eventually get an upgrade?

    Technically you could just apply the material settings from the G3 figures? ctrl+click and select keep maps on the box that pops up. you'd probably have to remove the sss map the G3 figues come with after you apply it, assuming that would carry over.

    ...but G3 skins have a different map structure so wouldn't there be a compatibility issue?

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 28,172
    edited April 2016
    Khory said:

    Perhaps think about it from a more "real world angle" what would they do if an actress had a day at the beach or was feeling ill? One option would be makeup, which for us would more than likey mean adjustment to skin tone. The other option is adjusting the lighting to compensate for the changes. If she is paler you can warm her up by adjusting the lighting for more warmth and if she has gotten tanner you can do an adjustment with cooler lighting to pull out some of that warmth. It actually takes some pretty minimal color shifts in the lighting to make those changes.

    ...without some type of surface flagging (like the old AoA lights are capable of) adjusting the light for skin tones also affects the look for rest of the scene as well.

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 28,172

    Rather than asking people to completely redo their lighting in every scene they have saved previously in 4.8, Daz 4.9 could use a render option that emulates Daz 4.8. Notice I said "emulate." That would would be the best way, and it would tempt a whole lot of holdouts to finally make that upgrade to 4.9.

    The change is in Iray - if nVidia didn't provide a switch to turn the bug back on then there's nothing Daz can do at that level, and I'm not sure that it would be possible to write a custom SSS routine in a shader that woudl mimic the bug (and if it was it would be extrremely slow, I imagine).

     

    That's why I said emulate. Daz built this boat by chaining themselves to a 3rd party renderer, so they have to deal with the consequences. If they had plans to upgrade to a newer version, they owe it to their customers to make sure there is a way to create the same render they could before without having to redo every single scene they ever made in 4.8. If it was a glitch, it is absurd that so many characters were released being optimised for a glitch. It doesn't matter if this is nvidia's fault, Daz chose to focus on iray. They should not have released a new Genesis figure before upgrading to a new iray. By releasing 4.9 right in the middle of a Genesis 3 cycle, they opened up a can of worms for anybody who had an ongoing project with models optimized for 4.8. There are still people who refuse to upgrade to 4.9 due to this change. If Daz is going to try and push people to upgrade to 4.9, then they should do everything they can to make people want to upgrade. They could add a value called "Iray 4.8 Lighting." This is based on a percentage scale. What it does is universally alter the lighting colors based on the difference between 4.8 and 4.9. Sliding this scale will adjust all the lights. Maybe it could be a script? I'm just throwing out ideas. It may not be 100% accurate all the time, but it could at least give users a starting point to make some final tweaks. This would be particularly helpful to newer users who are lost on lighting by letting them see what values are changing so they can zero in on what to do.

    ..this reminds me of the issues I dealt with going from Reality 2.5 to Reality 4.x.  Eventually ditched R4 completely as I was tired of having to rebuild all my surfaces in older scenes all over again with each new patch that was released.

  • KhoryKhory Posts: 3,847
    kyoto kid said:
    Khory said:

    Perhaps think about it from a more "real world angle" what would they do if an actress had a day at the beach or was feeling ill? One option would be makeup, which for us would more than likey mean adjustment to skin tone. The other option is adjusting the lighting to compensate for the changes. If she is paler you can warm her up by adjusting the lighting for more warmth and if she has gotten tanner you can do an adjustment with cooler lighting to pull out some of that warmth. It actually takes some pretty minimal color shifts in the lighting to make those changes.

    ...without some type of surface flagging (like the old AoA lights are capable of) adjusting the light for skin tones also affects the look for rest of the scene as well.

    Which should not be an issue if the skin and other surfaces are set up properly any more than putting reflectors on a model requires the sand, sea, or her swim suit to be "flagged" in the real world.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 28,172

    ...however there is no specific "surface flagging" in Iray. Reflectors could also affect other objects near the subject in the scene.  I am just looking at flagging skin and hair to get it to look better and SSS to work right.

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