formerly male content creation thread

11112131416

Comments

  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 10,698

    - I also used line selection and loop with extract around to create the seams near the bottom of the shirt and at the sides up under the arms.

    - I used selection tools and translate to make some fitting adjustments

    - I then used smoothing and the lightning bolt in the dynamic geometry to increase the shrt mesh density one more time.

    dd37 extract around.JPG
    1566 x 1050 - 204K
    dd40 repeat for seams underneath arms and down sides select and loop.JPG
    1604 x 1038 - 207K
    dd42 smoot and convert with lightning bolt.JPG
    1903 x 1036 - 245K
  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 10,698
    edited July 2018

    I'm not finished yet, but I saved and sent the current work-in-progress across the bridge to Studio to see how things were going.

    Hopefully, you will agree that it is starting to look a little like a golf shirt. Unfortunately, it has button holes but no buttons.

    As per SickleYield and Grinch 2901, the buttons will be done with a rigid follow group as separate meshes.  Will require some creations of material zones.

     

    dd43 status check in Studio.JPG
    1904 x 1015 - 193K
    Post edited by Diomede on
  • MollytabbyMollytabby Posts: 1,055

    @Diomede, this is truly amazing. Thank you so much. I can't do anything over the next three days as husband is at home and working on renovation projects (which means I'll be needed to help out and so won't have the opportunity to focus), but you've really encouraged me to have a go at this as soon as I have the chance. It will probably be a few small steps at a time though :-) and I need to get the chance to learn some of the basics with Hexagon. Though sometimes it gives me more of push if have a project to work thought like this one ... sort of learning as I go.

  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 10,698
    edited July 2018

    @Mollytabby - great, just go at your own pace.  Believe it or not, I actually think starting with the simple cape and DForce on the prior pages is easier because you don't have to do so many adjustments to get a basic result.  But don't do that if you diagree.  Pick something that isn't too complicated and that you would like to have (simple t-shirt, a knee brace,...).  

     

    Regarding the golf shirt, the next few stages will be:

    - uvmapping while it is still relatively low res

    - adding some more details like wrinkles and folds.

    - creating shader domains and materials

     

    But I won't be posting the screenshots for these stages today because we have had a break in the weather and I plan to be away from my computer while it lasts.

    Post edited by Diomede on
  • TimbalesTimbales Posts: 1,624
    No offense meant to the artist, but then Groom outfit is an example of a men's product I would not buy, or even use if it came free. The whole neck, shoulder and collar area doesn't look realistic at all.
  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 10,698
    edited July 2018

    Golf Shirt continued - some issues for details like collars, cuffs, and hems.

    Since The Groom outft has been brought up, I'd like to discuss some usage issues that also affect modeling choices.  I did purchase the product, and I believe I will get some good use from it with a few morphs.  But in any case, there are a few issues that have to be addressed with the golf shirt project that I hope it is OK to use the groom wedding outfit to illustrate.  This is in no way a criticism of that product.  It is just an illustration of how modeling for old-style conforming and modeling for DForce present some interesting issues.  How do you plan to use your custom content?  The answer might affect some important modeling decisions, or maybe details rather than decisions.

     

    1) Sense of thickness.  Most users want their custom content to give a sense of thickness; however, it is generally wasteful of memory and other computer resources to include interior polygons that would never face the camera.  Therefore, simply doubling the polygons of the mesh for inside and outside polygons is generally frowned upon.

    --- Sense of Thickness - Old-Style Conforming.  With an old style conforming shirt, the bottom hem can be given a sense of thickness by curling the edge back on itself and extruding back up the inside of the garment for a row or two of polygons.  That is how the shirt for this The Groom product handles giving a sense of thickness to the bottom of the shirt (and the collar, and the sleeve cuffs).

    --- Sense of Thickness - DForce. Aha!  A "curled in" row of polygons with DForce applied and no other adjustments might attempt to drape back out during the DForce calculations.  

    2) Anticipate Morphs such as Open/Close.  For your project, is this the kind of garment that you will want to have morphs for open/close?  Golf shirt?  Probably.  But, a formal garmet like the shirt for The Groom tux, which has a bowtie, might not be expected to be unbuttoned (or maybe you do).  The Groom product does not anticipate relying entirely on morphs for open/close.  The shirt mesh for where the front comes together is a single contiguous mesh.  It is not separated and overlapping to allow for easy morphing to open/unbutton.  While a contiguous front mesh makes it hard to morph the shirt open, it is better for draping in a cloth simulation.  As always, choices.  Open might still be successful using a texture map with an alpha mask, perhaps.

     

    3) Buttons - the buttons of The Groom shirt do not connect to the shirt mesh.  They float above it.

     

     

     

    pp01 bottom hem interior row.JPG
    1631 x 821 - 141K
    pp02 collar interior row.JPG
    1410 x 733 - 99K
    pp03 sleeves cuff interior edge.JPG
    1204 x 817 - 104K
    pp04 shirt front contiguous.JPG
    1320 x 905 - 203K
    pp05 button not connected to shirt.JPG
    1214 x 782 - 154K
    Post edited by Diomede on
  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 10,698

    INVITE DISCUSSION - DFORCE and CONFORMING, modeling choices for garment details

    - so, I'd be very happy for comments on the topics of (a) sense of thickness, (b) open/unbutton morphs, and (c) buttons.  What are some good approaches to these topcs, and how are they affected by the availability of DForce, if at all?

  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 10,698
    edited July 2018

    To illustrate, recall the war kilt from page 14 of the thread.  See how the model has used the curl up method to give the bottom hem a sense of thickness?  (The leather straps also have a sense of thickness)

     

    Post edited by Diomede on
  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 10,698
    edited July 2018

    There is a slight issue in the DForce simulation of the fabric of the war kilt near the bottom hem as that curled-in row of polygons attempts to drape with the DForce calculations

    Post edited by Diomede on
  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 10,698
    edited July 2018

    What are the best practices to deal with hems, cuffs, collars, et. that may be conformed, or may be DForced?

    What other issues related to this stage of the golf shirt project are also worth bringing up and discussing?

    Post edited by Diomede on
  • @Diomede   Thank you for your work and research, very informative. The thickness part is one the the multiple questions that I have unanswered.

    (Unfortunately I am a total beginner so I can't help.)

  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 10,698

    Mada posted a tutorial for rigid follow nodes.  Useful for buttons etc in DForce.


    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/203481/setting-up-items-with-rigid-follow-nodes-tutorial#latest

     

     

  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 10,698

    @xmasrose - regarding thickness, curling under seems to remain the standard for conforming clothes that also have DForce applied.  I wonder if expanded use of DForce will change that?

  • AllenArtAllenArt Posts: 4,729
    Diomede said:

    @xmasrose - regarding thickness, curling under seems to remain the standard for conforming clothes that also have DForce applied.  I wonder if expanded use of DForce will change that?

    I know some people have complained that dforce clothing is too thin.

    Laurie

     

  • JQPJQP Posts: 462
    edited July 2018
    Diomede said:

    So what brought this on?  Another thread, of course.

    Diomede said:

    Thread focused on the relative amount of male and female dedicated content in the Daz store

    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/65161/it-s-not-raining-men/p1

    Food for thought: I recently thought about the common complaint about how little content there is for male Daz figures, relative to the female lines, and it occurred to me that it might be somewhat overblown. Sure, there's a lot more female content, but when you break it down into categories, a LOOOOT of it falls into the "skimpy lil nothin barely covering anythin" category; bikinis, thongs, lingerie, etc. A lot of the fantasy and sci-fi stuff overlaps into this category, too. Now, some people may want that kind of stuff for male characters, but I don't (the occasional barbarian outfit sword and sandal type thing excepted). At all. So I think when we do an apples to apples comparison, i.e., "serious" or "realistic" female clothing catalog vs. "serious" or "realistic" male clothing catalog, the latter looks a LOT better than it does before excluding the aforementioned "sexy" content.

    I mean, think of it this way: lingerie stores/catalogs/etc for men aren't much of a thing, but that kind of thing is a huge chunk of the female content.

    I wouldn't be surprised if someone has already made that point in this thread, or the one linked above, but I figured I'd throw my two cents in there anyway.

    Post edited by JQP on
  • stem_athomestem_athome Posts: 363
    edited August 2018
    Diomede said:

    There is a slight issue in the DForce simulation of the fabric of the war kilt near the bottom hem as that curled-in row of polygons attempts to drape with the DForce calculations

    I have been trying to find a solution. At first I was adding various extra meshes (Dynamic Surface add-on) to support the fold, but either the "Add-on" did not support the fold, or the "Add-on" exploded (I tried many various settings).

    Instead, I left out(removed) the fold, and added extra geometry (Dynamic surface add-on) for the hem. I have had some success. Result shown in pic(screen-grab) from my last test.

    I dont have the "Kilt", so I just made a simalar type mesh and made same (animated) pose as shown in your pic.

    Studio4.jpg
    940 x 785 - 188K
    Post edited by stem_athome on
  • AllenArtAllenArt Posts: 4,729
    edited August 2018
    JQP said:
    Diomede said:

    So what brought this on?  Another thread, of course.

    Diomede said:

    Thread focused on the relative amount of male and female dedicated content in the Daz store

    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/65161/it-s-not-raining-men/p1

    Food for thought: I recently thought about the common complaint about how little content there is for male Daz figures, relative to the female lines, and it occurred to me that it might be somewhat overblown. Sure, there's a lot more female content, but when you break it down into categories, a LOOOOT of it falls into the "skimpy lil nothin barely covering anythin" category; bikinis, thongs, lingerie, etc. A lot of the fantasy and sci-fi stuff overlaps into this category, too. Now, some people may want that kind of stuff for male characters, but I don't (the occasional barbarian outfit sword and sandal type thing excepted). At all. So I think when we do an apples to apples comparison, i.e., "serious" or "realistic" female clothing catalog vs. "serious" or "realistic" male clothing catalog, the latter looks a LOT better than it does before excluding the aforementioned "sexy" content.

    I mean, think of it this way: lingerie stores/catalogs/etc for men aren't much of a thing, but that kind of thing is a huge chunk of the female content.

    I wouldn't be surprised if someone has already made that point in this thread, or the one linked above, but I figured I'd throw my two cents in there anyway.

    I think people are disatisfied not just with quantity but also the quality of offerings of the males vs the females. BadKittehCo., Midnight Stories, Luthbel and a few others excepted ;).

    Laurie

    Post edited by AllenArt on
  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 10,698
    edited August 2018

    Thank you, @stem_athome for the explanation and the screenshot.  Looks great.  Still not sure I understand the difference you are describing with 
    "Instead, I left out(removed) the fold, and added extra geometry (Dynamic surface add-on) for the hem."

    Is the hem still part of the same mesh, and the same DForce modifier?  Could you exlain a little more how it is different from a fold that curls back up inside?

     

    JQP and AllenArt, thanks for your insights.  In my view, lots of people have different reasons for wanting more content for the boys.  What we all have in common is the goal of making more available.  For what it is worth, when I first came across the prior thread, I looked up the US retail sales for men's and women's clothing in the "real world."  The sales of women's clothing in the real world is orders of magnitude larger than men's.  See the breakdown of GDP numbers published by the Bureau of Economic Analysis at bea.gov. That fact has had no seeming impact on discussions of content for men and women.

    Post edited by Diomede on
  • Rashad CarterRashad Carter Posts: 1,741

    This is easily one of the most useful and relevant threads in the entire forum at this moment! Brillaint in every way thanks so much Diomede please continue!!

  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 10,698
    edited August 2018

    Thank you, Rashad.  It is the generous contributions of folks such as @stem_athome that make this thread worthwhile.  I've tried to do some research on the method proposed by Stem a few posts up.  I think Barbilt gives a quick summay in one of the big DForce threads.  See here.  https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/3838626/#Comment_3838626

    That method creates new geometry for the express purpose of holding parts of a garment together, which is what I think is going on.

    It may be a few days, but I will see if I can try this method for somethig in the golf shirt.
     

    Post edited by Diomede on
  • felisfelis Posts: 612

    I stumbled upon this thread trying to figure out how to do open/close for dforce clothing, but found the thread interesting.

    I am still strugling to understand how to model, but I have a couple of suggestions.for your questions.

    Thickness: I initially also added an extra row of polygons and realised that they potentially just dropped down when simulating. I then considered connecting them back to the front by another row of polygons. That actually did the job but created a new issue: UV mapping. You will have 3 faces sharing one edge - and that is a challenge. Although it could be kind of fixed by adding a seam on these shared edges. But then I tried to remove the faces while keeping the edges, so the edges would keep the extra row of polygons so they didn't drop down, and not causing problems with UV mapping as there are no faces. See picture. I have only tried it out a few times but it seems to add a little more thickness.

    Buttons: If you shall be able to open the mesh you need space for the second mesh. And if the button shall not float it need to connect to the first mesh. So on the back of the button I made an extension, and then attached it to the first mesh using a rigid follower node. It would be nice if dforce could handle that just as a parameter in the surface settings, as it is more troublesome using this, but maybe that will come I haven't used that much either, but that is my current solution. Initially I made this setup because I hoped I could use it to keep the second mesh in place, i.e. for open/close but that didn't work.

    Model_thickness.PNG
    427 x 404 - 30K
    Model_button.PNG
    289 x 347 - 17K
  • grinch2901grinch2901 Posts: 1,193
    edited August 2018

    Thanks for all this info, I'm in the process of trying to make a set of clothing to match that of the character Ciri in the Witcher 3 game. I've made stuff before but this is different becuase

    • Will have to have straps and buckle
    • Has a belt that I don't want to get all bent out of shape
    • Needs boots and gloves, neither of which I've ever made

    Usually when I make stuff I do a simple rig using the transfer utility but this time I want to really learn how to do JCMs and that sort of thing. It's not for sale but I'd like to finally make something I consider almost good enough to sell if it could be sold.  Anyway, I may join the discussion from time to time, if that's okay. The title says "formerly male" so I am thinking a female warrior will be okay here. 

    Anyway here's what I've made thus far and what it's supposed to look like.  This is the base model from Marvelous Designer. The rest will be done in Hexagon probably.  The gloves are from an old V4 set, just for illustration purposes.  I haven't figured out how to make my own yet. 

     

    Monster Hunter 1.jpg
    1229 x 950 - 262K
    Ciri_Witcher_3_The_Wild_Hunt_Character_Sheet.jpg
    700 x 611 - 286K
    Post edited by grinch2901 on
  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 10,698

    Thank you, @felis and @grinch2901, your insights and contributions are most welcome.  If I read Felis correctly, it might be possible to have a mesh with edges that are not connected by faces?  Free polylines?  Am I interpreting correctly? That might solve a lot of problems.  However, if run through the transfer utility, why are these excluded mesh pieces not acting as conforming and therefore ruining the drape?  Obviously, I am not understanding something bout what is being tried.  But whatever it is, the results migh5 be promising so please keep sharing.  And the female warrior clothing is also most welcome. Trying to learn techniques!  There are links to JCM videos earlier in the thread.  Let me know if you need more specifics.

     

    sorry for not being more detailed. Trying to monitor the thread while on vacation, and only have my tablet, not my ‘puter.  

  • JQPJQP Posts: 462
    edited August 2018
    Diomede said:

    Thank you, @stem_athome for the explanation and the screenshot.  Looks great.  Still not sure I understand the difference you are describing with 
    "Instead, I left out(removed) the fold, and added extra geometry (Dynamic surface add-on) for the hem."

    Is the hem still part of the same mesh, and the same DForce modifier?  Could you exlain a little more how it is different from a fold that curls back up inside?

     

    JQP and AllenArt, thanks for your insights.  In my view, lots of people have different reasons for wanting more content for the boys.  What we all have in common is the goal of making more available.  For what it is worth, when I first came across the prior thread, I looked up the US retail sales for men's and women's clothing in the "real world."  The sales of women's clothing in the real world is orders of magnitude larger than men's.  See the breakdown of GDP numbers published by the Bureau of Economic Analysis at bea.gov. That fact has had no seeming impact on discussions of content for men and women.

    Yeah I think it's safe to say that even when one excludes the practically exclusively female clothing categories like swimwear and lingerie, and only consider more practical clothing, in the real world women buy a lot more clothes, and thus the variety available is much wider.

    Speaking of practical, that's what I'd like to see a lot more of. Skimpy sexy clothing isn't very useful to me, for various reasons. I'm always wishing for a wider variety of outdoor/hiking and cold weather clothing and accessories, for example. But then I'm an odd sort of guy, I don't really find high heels attractive, for example. I'm always too busy thinking about how stupid and impractical they are to find them sexy. Actually I find most female camouflage annoying, just let me see how you look in flats without a bunch of makeup and a 200 hairstyle for crying out loud. I like you better with your hair up anyway.

    Post edited by JQP on
  • JQPJQP Posts: 462
    AllenArt said:
    JQP said:
    Diomede said:

    So what brought this on?  Another thread, of course.

    Diomede said:

    Thread focused on the relative amount of male and female dedicated content in the Daz store

    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/65161/it-s-not-raining-men/p1

    Food for thought: I recently thought about the common complaint about how little content there is for male Daz figures, relative to the female lines, and it occurred to me that it might be somewhat overblown. Sure, there's a lot more female content, but when you break it down into categories, a LOOOOT of it falls into the "skimpy lil nothin barely covering anythin" category; bikinis, thongs, lingerie, etc. A lot of the fantasy and sci-fi stuff overlaps into this category, too. Now, some people may want that kind of stuff for male characters, but I don't (the occasional barbarian outfit sword and sandal type thing excepted). At all. So I think when we do an apples to apples comparison, i.e., "serious" or "realistic" female clothing catalog vs. "serious" or "realistic" male clothing catalog, the latter looks a LOT better than it does before excluding the aforementioned "sexy" content.

    I mean, think of it this way: lingerie stores/catalogs/etc for men aren't much of a thing, but that kind of thing is a huge chunk of the female content.

    I wouldn't be surprised if someone has already made that point in this thread, or the one linked above, but I figured I'd throw my two cents in there anyway.

    I think people are disatisfied not just with quantity but also the quality of offerings of the males vs the females. BadKittehCo., Midnight Stories, Luthbel and a few others excepted ;).

    Laurie

    Fair enough. One thing I'd like to see more of in general, and for male clothing in particular, is more texture sets. Texture sets really leverage the utility of a clothing set higher, but so much of the time you never see even one extra texture set for a product. Texture sets are an even bigger deal for male clothing where you have so much less product. You need a few cuts of business suits, but the real variety comes from the colors and the patterns.

  • JQPJQP Posts: 462

    Thanks for all this info, I'm in the process of trying to make a set of clothing to match that of the character Ciri in the Witcher 3 game. I've made stuff before but this is different becuase

    • Will have to have straps and buckle
    • Has a belt that I don't want to get all bent out of shape
    • Needs boots and gloves, neither of which I've ever made

    Usually when I make stuff I do a simple rig using the transfer utility but this time I want to really learn how to do JCMs and that sort of thing. It's not for sale but I'd like to finally make something I consider almost good enough to sell if it could be sold.  Anyway, I may join the discussion from time to time, if that's okay. The title says "formerly male" so I am thinking a female warrior will be okay here. 

    Anyway here's what I've made thus far and what it's supposed to look like.  This is the base model from Marvelous Designer. The rest will be done in Hexagon probably.  The gloves are from an old V4 set, just for illustration purposes.  I haven't figured out how to make my own yet. 

     

    Very nice.

  • InTheFleshInTheFlesh Posts: 134

    Are there restrictions on who can create texture sets? Either as freebies or for sale, can people other than the original PA and/or Daz release new texture sets?

  • TimbalesTimbales Posts: 1,624
    edited August 2018

    Are there restrictions on who can create texture sets? Either as freebies or for sale, can people other than the original PA and/or Daz release new texture sets?

    The restrictions on texture sets and distribution is come down to the rights to images used. Example: if you took the texture image that came with a men's shirt and put a color filter over it and tried to give it away or sell it, you'd probably be in trouble. You can't sell or redistribute any part of the original product you purchased without permission unless otherwise stated. But if you built a new texture from scratch using royalty free stock images, photos you took yourself or a resource kit sold for this purpose, you're fine. Matching the UV mapping is ok. Edit - avoiding trademarked logos is still a good idea.
    Post edited by Timbales on
  • InTheFleshInTheFlesh Posts: 134
    edited August 2018

    So for example, could I create and sell or give away a texture set for Henley Shirt and Jeans Outfit? I have no plans currently, just curious to see if it's something that is allowed or if there are official rules limiting it.

    Post edited by InTheFlesh on
  • grinch2901grinch2901 Posts: 1,193
    JQP said:

     

     

    Very nice.

    Thank you. I've been working on the gloves, did a mesh extract in zbrush and then retopology. Came out okay but I made them too low res and they don't show the details I originally sculpted in (wrinkles mostly) so as a last resort I'm going to see if I can get some back with a dynamic sim but will probably have to redo them and give them more verts.. Also I started to try to do a JCM on the bottom of the corset, it clips into the leg and distorts a LOT in more extreme leg poses. But that's not so easy as I'd hoped.  Never did JCMs before. Josh Darling has a video on youtube but his example is a loose fitting set of shorts and he's letting gravity affect them (i.e pulling down the back part). Easy to get to. In my case it's not so easy.

    You see I made the original parts in Marvelous Designer and exported the pants / shirt as a single OBJ, the Corset as an OBJ (so it would keep thihckness) and the arm bands as thick OBJs. Then I loaded them all into studio and exported it as a single OBJ, basically I turned it into a highly detailed bodysuit. But now when I try to work on the mesh while it's conformed I am running into real problems. The thick corset isn't welded so it wants to fall apart. I need to use a very soft move tool to grap lots of verts when I try to move them but it's grabbing ones on the pants underneath too.  Now I begin to understand whay PAs here are saying when they talk about the real work starting once the mesh is done.

Sign In or Register to comment.