Daz Studio Pro BETA - version 4.9.0.21!

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  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    lee_lhs said:
    lee_lhs said:

     

    Clearly you believed you had to change it in the past. Giving the customer more options and more power, while preserving the ability to update products without having to go hunt and helping solve the number one customer complaint strikes you as a bad idea?

    No... FORCING us to change is what's a bad idea.

    You are not forced to change. You can keep using everything you have exactly as you use it now.

    But in  the future, we won't because of the policy change that everything new will be DAZ Connect only.

    I do not have a working crystal ball and will not attempt to predict the future.

    You don't have to use the crystal ball. It was clearly stated in the FAQ for the release, by DAZ_Vince:

    Are all products Daz Connect ready?

    New products, as well as a huge selection of older products, will be offered through Daz Connect right away, with more of the older products having Daz Connect support added in the future. Our plans are for existing products that have been offered through non-Daz Connect methods to continue to be offered in those ways as well as through Daz Connect. New products will begin to migrate toward a Daz Connect-only delivery.

    Even if the EULA itself will not change, this will defacto force everyone who buys at DAZ store to download DS, and then use DAZ Connector to download and verify the purchase, whereas nowadays you don't have to install DS if you want to download your purchases.

    That does not change my statement in any way. You are not forced to change anything you are doing with what you have.

    If you wish to take advantage of new things, that usually requires you to change how you do things. That is true of 4.8 when we added Iray, it was true of 4.6 when we added the IPR window. Etc. 

  • BeeMKayBeeMKay Posts: 6,331

    Yup... it might make me change the place I'm shopping my 3D content at.

  • BarubaryBarubary Posts: 1,120
    edited October 2015
    Nyghtfall said:

    Yes, some of you have been moving things around for years, and know what you are doing, so it has worked for you, but you are the exception, not the rule, and you should not have had to do that in the first place.

    In moving files around you have been creating categories, though since there wasn't a database, it wasn't as fully functional as what Smart Content can do for you.

    There's something you should know about us exceptions to the rule.  We enjoy moving things around.  The key difference between moving files around ourselves, and using a database, is controlWe want control over our content.  We don't have to backup anything, or risk a new version of Studio mucking things up.   We just point the latest version to our content folder(s) and we're done.

    While you still don't have to use Smart Content, if you continue to use Install Manager, and I know change is scary...

    I'm not afraid of change.  I love change.  I want to maintain control over content I bought.

    The database gives you just as much control over your content that you bought. You control the database, it is on your computer. You can change it. There are two main differences in changing the database instead of the file location. Making changes to smart content through the database instead of moving files allows you to get updates to your content correctly without additional work. Whether that update is because of a bug or to give you a new feature, the update just works, you don't need to do anything more than just install the update. Changing the database instead of the folders gives you more power. You can make things show up based on what is selected, regardless of what is selected. 

    The reason I don't like working in the database is because it's slow, sluggish, can't use hotkeys (from what I can tell), doesn't work with seperate file organizing tools and from what I've been reading all over the boards since the very day I started, is prone to corruption and losses, if you don't handle it correctly. Which for some reason, you seem to believe those inexperienced new users suddenly will.

     

    So it's a giant disadvantage for organizing one's content. I also find it kind of funny, that DAZ seems to honestly believe that their database is easier to handle to people than the normal file system that every computer user on the world knows and is used to.

     

    Instead you are going to force a very specific content setup on every single user, which seems kind of counterintuitive for an art tool and it worries me that the ones creating that setup are the same people who have been placing content in the most obscure places possible for years.

     

    If they hadn't, maybe I wouldn't have had to learn how to manage content by myself in the first place. And now you want to enforce that.

     

    I'm really baffled that with long threads about features people actually want for the next DS versions that would make DS a more powerful tool, DAZ went with one that nobody asked for but that just so happens to turn DS and the shop into an even more walled garden.

     

    The only ones I see a real benefit for, is the poor folks in customer service. But if DAZ wanted to help them, maybe they could start with not messing up the store and their sales several times a day. I think that's something users and customer service might benefit from.

     

    The single upside I see is the increased ease of updates. That's really a plus. But I doubt I'll be buying DAZ connect content. Good thing I haven't moved to Gen7 yet.

    Post edited by Barubary on
  • CypherFOXCypherFOX Posts: 3,301

    Greetings,

    Yes it WAS disigenous to say I was confused..., but that same term also applies when It has been stated that this is being done JUST for users benefit. If this is ALSO being put in place to help protect Content from piracy then just state that as a goal of the upgrade/new downloading and encryption method.

    S.K.

    That's a fair point.

    I think this FAQ entry addresses it somewhat, expressing what (I hope) I was trying to get across, that both of these things appear to be goals, but the user experience part was the first driver.  But they could do a better job of making clear that both of these things are goals, and making them happen together is better than trying to make them happen separately.

    ...

    For myself, I'll admit, I'm dealing with a situation at work where people are freaking out for very little reason because things are changing, and to see that exact same behavior (with the oppositional and outraged tone of many of the posts being identical, even if the content is vastly different) in the DAZ forum community makes me frustrated.

    This change is not the end of the world.  It's not even the end of Daz Studio.  I wish online outrage rhetoric didn't escalate so quickly, but I might as well wish that water was not wet. :-/

    --  Morgan

     

  • I was looking foreward to DAZStudio5, but I think that's it. I think I won't upgrade. I won't buy Cloud stuff. That is a my personal law. That's the reason, why I don't go for photoshop.

  • KhoryKhory Posts: 3,847
    araneldon said:
    Khory said:

    "It will definitely inconvenience users."

    I doubt that the majority of users will notice any change at all much less be inconvienced.

    I didn't say majority. It's painfully obvious that most DAZ Studio users are perfectly happy to just buy, load and render other people's creations.

    And what is wrong with that? Do you talk down about people who don't grind their own minerals then mix thier own oil paints? Weave their own canvas? Kill their own rabbits for glue? Does buying paint and canvas make someones art less valuable than the person who "makes it all from scratch"?

  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 5,378
    edited October 2015

    Just to add something here. These days products are being uploaded to warez and torrents the SAME day as it is released! It is actually rediculous. So if this cloud DRM system delays the ability to do that even by a few days or eliminate it entirely, then I am all for it.

    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • JennKJennK Posts: 834

    I have a big issue with the fact that I will not have the zip files any longer that I can move to an external storage. I keep mine as they are products I have paid for. If you want to set it up so that I have to have a validation to use that file go ahead but once that is done give me what I paid for and not just parts of it. It's like telling someone who bought a book well we are not going to give you all of it. you can read the first part but to get the rest you have to give the first part back.

    I paid for a product let me store it as I see fit.

    I use DIM and I can tell you half the time it puts it in some obscure loation that I have to find anyway. That doesn't bother me as much as not having physical access to my files and my complete files that I paid for.

    Now If I have this wrong please let me know.

    And I am not talking about your Microsoft esq backup which btw those never work fully anyway.

     

  • DavidGBDavidGB Posts: 539

    It's funny, really. For a long time the digital music and e-books I got were DRMed. Ended up a terrible pain. A music supplier I had bought from kind-of merged with another, then disappeared; and when a year or two later I got a new computer, when I tried to play the music the software insisted it had to re-download a license but couldn't because the company and its validation servers were gone. So I lost a whole load of music. Same thing happened with some e-books.

    Awhile back, first they stopped DRMing the music, then more recently the e-books. (Or one ebook supplier DRMs some ebooks and not others at the wish of the individual authors - all the authors I follow have their books DRM free.)

    So. just after the music and ebooks have moved from DRM to DRM free, DAZ is going the other way.

    Well, I am not going to buy products that are DRMed, after being burnt with the music.

    I am not buying content where I can't move the files around in the folders to fit with how I search for content between the DS4 stuff, the DS3- stuff and the Poser format stuff,

    I am not buying content where I can't load the files into a text editor, read and edit - not with the amount of such editing I've always done with Poser and .duf/dsf files to find and fix bugs, expand functionaity or re-purpose for my own use. Scripts and plugins are another matter - I can't and don't wish to read those, But content type products i require to have readbale and editable files.

    Each of those three is a sufficient reason for me to not buy content on its own, never mind all three. I've stopped buying from Renderosity because of an aspect of their new site design; looks like I'll be stopping here as well once all new content goes to DAZ Connect only.

    Ah well. I'm just starting on rendering out three lengthy stories in a graphic format. Should take me at least a year. I think I've actually already got everything I need for them. Ordinarily I'd have kept an eye on the store for better versions of things I'm going to need, and bought any that turned up. But I can just get on with the versions I have and leave DAZ' s store alone.

    This is all ... very sad.

  • araneldonaraneldon Posts: 704
    Khory said:
    araneldon said:

    I didn't say majority. It's painfully obvious that most DAZ Studio users are perfectly happy to just buy, load and render other people's creations.

    And what is wrong with that? Do you talk down about people who don't grind their own minerals then mix thier own oil paints? Weave their own canvas? Kill their own rabbits for glue? Does buying paint and canvas make someones art less valuable than the person who "makes it all from scratch"?

    Which one was this... reductio ad absurdum? I didn't say any of that. A render using only other people's textures, models, lights, poses, etc certainly can be meaningful and worthwhile. (But let's be honest, how likely is that really?)

    There are unfortunate consequences. We don't get things like tools to make our own HD morphs because there isn't enough demand for them when most customers are happy to just buy them. Or DAZ may decide to deny us the ability to adapt content to our needs by encrypting it, because most people don't care.

    And this concludes my partification in these threads. Wait and see.

  • SkirikiSkiriki Posts: 4,936
    edited October 2015

    I want answers as pertains to security of dealing with cloud, store and purchases.

    DRM is not a guarantee of safety. DRM will be cracked. Your product will be cracked; all you've done is put a challenge in front of horde of ten thousand brogrammers out of job, and looking to make a name.

    If a product DRM is based on my user account details in DAZ Store, what will happen when the inevitable happens and crackers break the security of either store, user account or content?

    What details content will sing out to the world about user who bought it when it gets inevitably cracked? Because it will.

    What security protocol DStudio will use to contact cloud or store?

    Is the encryption protocol based on something in common use (such as openSSL) or something "done in-house"?

    What level of encryption is used? 256 bit? 512 bit? 1024 bit? 2048 bit? 4096 bit?

    Who has signed the security cert? Are users able to view it, like they can view browser security certs?

    Post edited by Skiriki on
  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 3,526

     so that what benefit Customer  get   such cloud system,  and  Daz Connect-only delivery?

    I feel there seems no merit for customer side. not vendor side. frankly said.

    (sorry,, Khory and Zev0 both  you are really good vendor,  kind enough for user  too,,  )

     

    Daz may better simply give up croud or connect idea untill you can get full support from most of customer.

     then just  concentrate on release genesis3male Aiko7, etc

    or add real IK system, or animation tool more smart and easy.

    If  someone said, "it  is really good idea, and many customer must like the way!"

    about these ?

     

    I feel he or she must be  spy to break daz business. then they plan to rob your customer.

    just give up the idea, then concentrate  offer new ds 4.9 without cloud or change directory , merge data,, etc,,,

    (simply annoying I feel now)

     Khory will  offer new beautiful shader ,texture, tutoriall for gen3figures and iray,,

    Zev 0  may offer new breast morph for AIko 7 with specail details,

     ,glute morphs , poze controll for gen3f  , project morphs to slide bkikini etc,,

    (I really like them, if they released,)  ^^;

  • Zev0 said:

    Just to add something here. These days products are being uploaded to warez and torrents the SAME day as it is released! It is actually rediculous. So if this cloud DRM system delays the ability to do that even by a few days or eliminate it entirely, then I am all for it. On the flip side, Please DO NOT remove manual zips. I don't use smart content and manage my own structures and prefer to use content library (better layout for my purposes) because I for one do not like the way some products are named and structured so I organise things myself. If there is a product update, I download it and update the files that need updating. So Cater for the new users, and do your cloud thing, but also do not force this on users who are used to managing their own content and structures who know what they are doing. OR, find a way to incorporate the cloud thing so us manual users can still be happy. Finally, IRAY is this version Kicks ass!!

    There are not enough +1s to be had for this. Much as I'd like to be able to get into the duf/dsf files for troubleshooting purposes. I much prefer to use the content library anyway. Smart content has never seemed to be particularly smart to me. There are users that can't survive without it. If you retained the ability to download a storeable backup capability, then I would lay bets that the vast majority of the hate going on here would dry up in a hurry.

  • HavosHavos Posts: 3,561
    Zev0 said:

    Just to add something here. These days products are being uploaded to warez and torrents the SAME day as it is released! It is actually rediculous. So if this cloud DRM system delays the ability to do that even by a few days or eliminate it entirely, then I am all for it.

    I think you will find that most people that use pirated content will have no issue waiting a few days if the alternative is having to spend some money.

  • DAZ_RawbDAZ_Rawb Posts: 541
    Zev0 said:

    Just to add something here. These days products are being uploaded to warez and torrents the SAME day as it is released! It is actually rediculous. So if this cloud DRM system delays the ability to do that even by a few days or eliminate it entirely, then I am all for it. On the flip side, Please DO NOT remove manual zips. I don't use smart content and manage my own structures and prefer to use content library (better layout for my purposes) because I for one do not like the way some products are named and structured so I organise things myself. If there is a product update, I download it and update the files that need updating. So Cater for the new users, and do your cloud thing, but also do not force this on users who are used to managing their own content and structures who know what they are doing. OR, find a way to incorporate the cloud thing so us manual users can still be happy. Finally, IRAY is this version Kicks ass!!

    There are not enough +1s to be had for this. Much as I'd like to be able to get into the duf/dsf files for troubleshooting purposes. I much prefer to use the content library anyway. Smart content has never seemed to be particularly smart to me. There are users that can't survive without it. If you retained the ability to download a storeable backup capability, then I would lay bets that the vast majority of the hate going on here would dry up in a hurry.

    This has been stated multiple times already, but let me see if I can state it clearly enough to prevent this question from popping up again:

     

    1. Backing up the data/cloud directory and restoring it on to a new machine is entirely supported by Daz Connect. It will detect those files and mark them as installed in your local database the next time it connects and fetches metadata.

     

    2. For users that want a single file they can download for a product we are building that option right now. It is my fault that this feature has not yet been implemented, I prioritized features that would improve the online experience first. You will be able to download (and backup) a package file (I don't want to call it a zip because the contents are encrypted) and an authorization file (that is unique to your user) which will let you install products while offline. You will have to connect any new machine at least once to download your user key to that machine but after that these package and authorization files can be used without ever connecting again.

     

    Once again: We will be allowing users to download single file packages for all of their products that can be backed up and installed from.

  • JennKJennK Posts: 834
    edited October 2015
    Zev0 said:

    Just to add something here. These days products are being uploaded to warez and torrents the SAME day as it is released! It is actually rediculous. So if this cloud DRM system delays the ability to do that even by a few days or eliminate it entirely, then I am all for it. On the flip side, Please DO NOT remove manual zips. I don't use smart content and manage my own structures and prefer to use content library (better layout for my purposes) because I for one do not like the way some products are named and structured so I organise things myself. If there is a product update, I download it and update the files that need updating. So Cater for the new users, and do your cloud thing, but also do not force this on users who are used to managing their own content and structures who know what they are doing. OR, find a way to incorporate the cloud thing so us manual users can still be happy. Finally, IRAY is this version Kicks ass!!

    There are not enough +1s to be had for this. Much as I'd like to be able to get into the duf/dsf files for troubleshooting purposes. I much prefer to use the content library anyway. Smart content has never seemed to be particularly smart to me. There are users that can't survive without it. If you retained the ability to download a storeable backup capability, then I would lay bets that the vast majority of the hate going on here would dry up in a hurry.

    +2 I don't care if I have to download through the program to validate that I own the product. Just please don't take my Zips.

    Post edited by JennK on
  • Skiriki said:

    I want answers as pertains to security of dealing with cloud, store and purchases.

    DRM is not a guarantee of safety. DRM will be cracked. Your product will be cracked; all you've done is put a challenge in front of horde of ten thousand brogrammers out of job, and looking to make a name.

    If a product DRM is based on my user account details in DAZ Store, what will happen when the inevitable happens and crackers break the security of either store, user account or content?

    What details content will sing out to the world about user who bought it when it gets inevitably cracked? Because it will.

    What security protocol DStudio will use to contact cloud or store?

    Is the encryption protocol based on something in common use (such as openSSL) or something "done in-house"?

    What level of encryption is used? 256 bit? 512 bit? 1024 bit? 2048 bit? 4096 bit?

    Who has signed the security cert? Are users able to view it, like they can view browser security certs?

    I'm not sure how a possible crack of the encryption would place your detaisl at risk - they'd already need access to your machine or your account to get the files keyed to your account in th first place. You won't be online (unless you choose to be) while working in DS itself and not installing content (assuming you don't install via the separate download and offline mode that's been mentioned).

  • DAZ_Rawb said:
    Zev0 said:

    Just to add something here. These days products are being uploaded to warez and torrents the SAME day as it is released! It is actually rediculous. So if this cloud DRM system delays the ability to do that even by a few days or eliminate it entirely, then I am all for it. On the flip side, Please DO NOT remove manual zips. I don't use smart content and manage my own structures and prefer to use content library (better layout for my purposes) because I for one do not like the way some products are named and structured so I organise things myself. If there is a product update, I download it and update the files that need updating. So Cater for the new users, and do your cloud thing, but also do not force this on users who are used to managing their own content and structures who know what they are doing. OR, find a way to incorporate the cloud thing so us manual users can still be happy. Finally, IRAY is this version Kicks ass!!

    There are not enough +1s to be had for this. Much as I'd like to be able to get into the duf/dsf files for troubleshooting purposes. I much prefer to use the content library anyway. Smart content has never seemed to be particularly smart to me. There are users that can't survive without it. If you retained the ability to download a storeable backup capability, then I would lay bets that the vast majority of the hate going on here would dry up in a hurry.

    This has been stated multiple times already, but let me see if I can state it clearly enough to prevent this question from popping up again:

     

    1. Backing up the data/cloud directory and restoring it on to a new machine is entirely supported by Daz Connect. It will detect those files and mark them as installed in your local database the next time it connects and fetches metadata.

     

    2. For users that want a single file they can download for a product we are building that option right now. It is my fault that this feature has not yet been implemented, I prioritized features that would improve the online experience first. You will be able to download (and backup) a package file (I don't want to call it a zip because the contents are encrypted) and an authorization file (that is unique to your user) which will let you install products while offline. You will have to connect any new machine at least once to download your user key to that machine but after that these package and authorization files can be used without ever connecting again.

     

    Once again: We will be allowing users to download single file packages for all of their products that can be backed up and installed from.

    Which resolves the last of the questions I had with the move to 4.9. I'm good now. As long as I can stuff things into longterm storage, I'm good. 

    Then there's always telling Studio where to install things, which I know I can do.

  • IceCrMnIceCrMn Posts: 966
    Skiriki said:

    I want answers as pertains to security of dealing with cloud, store and purchases.

    DRM is not a guarantee of safety. DRM will be cracked. Your product will be cracked; all you've done is put a challenge in front of horde of ten thousand brogrammers out of job, and looking to make a name.

    If a product DRM is based on my user account details in DAZ Store, what will happen when the inevitable happens and crackers break the security of either store, user account or content?

    What details content will sing out to the world about user who bought it when it gets inevitably cracked? Because it will.

    What security protocol DStudio will use to contact cloud or store?

    Is the encryption protocol based on something in common use (such as openSSL) or something "done in-house"?

    What level of encryption is used? 256 bit? 512 bit? 1024 bit? 2048 bit? 4096 bit?

    Who has signed the security cert? Are users able to view it, like they can view browser security certs?

    according to this estimate, it will take around 1 Billion years to brute force a 128bit key. http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1279619

    The real problems are man in the middle, and phising.

    I'm sure most of you have already heard about the recent Experian breach, and how it was done.

    So to answer your question, No security measure is perfect.That doesn't mean we should stop using them.

  • swordkensiaswordkensia Posts: 330
    edited October 2015
    CypherFOX said:

    Greetings,

    Yes it WAS disigenous to say I was confused..., but that same term also applies when It has been stated that this is being done JUST for users benefit. If this is ALSO being put in place to help protect Content from piracy then just state that as a goal of the upgrade/new downloading and encryption method.

    S.K.

    That's a fair point.

    I think this FAQ entry addresses it somewhat, expressing what (I hope) I was trying to get across, that both of these things appear to be goals, but the user experience part was the first driver.  But they could do a better job of making clear that both of these things are goals, and making them happen together is better than trying to make them happen separately.

    ...

    For myself, I'll admit, I'm dealing with a situation at work where people are freaking out for very little reason because things are changing, and to see that exact same behavior (with the oppositional and outraged tone of many of the posts being identical, even if the content is vastly different) in the DAZ forum community makes me frustrated.

    This change is not the end of the world.  It's not even the end of Daz Studio.  I wish online outrage rhetoric didn't escalate so quickly, but I might as well wish that water was not wet. :-/

    --  Morgan

     

    No Worries sir.!! :)

    However for me the issue is more complex as I run a home network of six workstations, and two of those production worstations share the content of the MAIN workstation via content paths across the network, so I have one master content location that other machines can share... this new method is likely to cause a nightmare situation for my setup, as potentially I will now have to update the other two machines instead of just the One master workstation.  those other machines will need to go online to authenticate. the content, and then databases will need to be sync'ed for it all to work... I potential nightmare, plus those machines do not have online capabilty built in...sigh..

    I realise I am not a typcial user, but my current method of downloading a Zip file to the main workstation and done is not going to work anymore.. leaving me with a huge sys admin task of trying to sync up the other machines etc, UNLESS Daz can do something that will enable me to continue working as I currently do.!!!

     

    S.K

     

     

    Post edited by swordkensia on
  • SkirikiSkiriki Posts: 4,936

    I'm not sure how a possible crack of the encryption would place your detaisl at risk - they'd already need access to your machine or your account to get the files keyed to your account in th first place. You won't be online (unless you choose to be) while working in DS itself and not installing content (assuming you don't install via the separate download and offline mode that's been mentioned).

    Is it possible for someone to write a DS script which maliciously tries to lift user details and then forward them to a third party? An attack from inside, much like macro-viruses for Microsoft Word.

    Laptop/desktop theft? There is a tick for "remember me" in 4.9's login details.

    But the question of security protocol is important in these days of data snooping.

    Could we just have the darn details here. angry Please. This should be basic information.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 28,664
    CypherFOX said:

    Greetings,

    araneldon said:

    It might slow down pirates. It will definitely inconvenience users. It will definitely reduce the value of content by reducing customers' ability to utilize it.

    You know what?  You don't give in to the bad guys, even if their victory is assured.  You make it hard as hell for them to win, because then some of them will drop off.

     

    So this IS DRM to protect Content Creators and NOT a more user friendly method for managing content which has been posited  by Daz.., which is it.??? I am confused.

    S.K.

    No you're not, that's disingenuous and doesn't help the conversation.  DAZ worked out what they feel is a more user friendly way to manage content, and realized that if they went that way, it was also possible to provide at-rest encryption that helps protect the artists who sell through the DAZ store.  Both of these things can be true at the same time.

    I have seen several people publicly quit the forums and DAZ (and actually stick to it!) because they, in one of their words, 'feel like 3D is database administration, not artwork'.  Because they couldn't handle the constant stress of sorting where their files went.  I can EASILY imagine that DAZ gets 40-50 support emails a month from new (and existing) users who have no idea where their content installed to.  Hell, more than half the time I don't, but at least I know how to do the product, SKU, readme dance (or launch DIM, which I often forget to do).  It sucks that I have to do that, as someone who's actually experienced with the program.

    I'm not a fan of DRM.  I've enjoyed being able to parse DUF files myself, and do interesting things with them, and I'm sad to see that go.

    The absolutely shitty Poser-based directory structure, or having to manually sort and file over 5,000 installed products?  To HELL with that.  I'll take a FIXED Smart Content over that, any day.  And Smart Content has been changed.  I can't say if it's been fixed yet, but the ability to not only show stuff that's compatible with what's selected is a really good start.

    --  Morgan

     

     

    CypherFOX said:

    Greetings,

    araneldon said:

    It might slow down pirates. It will definitely inconvenience users. It will definitely reduce the value of content by reducing customers' ability to utilize it.

    You know what?  You don't give in to the bad guys, even if their victory is assured.  You make it hard as hell for them to win, because then some of them will drop off.

     

    So this IS DRM to protect Content Creators and NOT a more user friendly method for managing content which has been posited  by Daz.., which is it.??? I am confused.

    S.K.

    No you're not, that's disingenuous and doesn't help the conversation.  DAZ worked out what they feel is a more user friendly way to manage content, and realized that if they went that way, it was also possible to provide at-rest encryption that helps protect the artists who sell through the DAZ store.  Both of these things can be true at the same time.

    I have seen several people publicly quit the forums and DAZ (and actually stick to it!) because they, in one of their words, 'feel like 3D is database administration, not artwork'.  Because they couldn't handle the constant stress of sorting where their files went.  I can EASILY imagine that DAZ gets 40-50 support emails a month from new (and existing) users who have no idea where their content installed to.  Hell, more than half the time I don't, but at least I know how to do the product, SKU, readme dance (or launch DIM, which I often forget to do).  It sucks that I have to do that, as someone who's actually experienced with the program.

    I'm not a fan of DRM.  I've enjoyed being able to parse DUF files myself, and do interesting things with them, and I'm sad to see that go.

    The absolutely shitty Poser-based directory structure, or having to manually sort and file over 5,000 installed products?  To HELL with that.  I'll take a FIXED Smart Content over that, any day.  And Smart Content has been changed.  I can't say if it's been fixed yet, but the ability to not only show stuff that's compatible with what's selected is a really good start.

    --  Morgan

     

    Yes it WAS disigenous to say I was confused..., but that same term also applies when It has been stated that this is being done JUST for users benefit. If this is ALSO being put in place to help protect Content from piracy then just state that as a goal of the upgrade/new downloading and encryption method.

    S.K.

    Ahem    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/932631/#Comment_932631

  • ghosty12ghosty12 Posts: 971
    edited October 2015

     

     

    Which resolves the last of the questions I had with the move to 4.9. I'm good now. As long as I can stuff things into longterm storage, I'm good. 

    Then there's always telling Studio where to install things, which I know I can do.

    Yes it is good to see that we will have this ability, and that having encrypted files and a unique authorization file to allow offline install then I am now turning toward being happy to get stuck into 4.9..

    Post edited by ghosty12 on
  • Skiriki said:

    I want answers as pertains to security of dealing with cloud, store and purchases.

    DRM is not a guarantee of safety. DRM will be cracked. Your product will be cracked; all you've done is put a challenge in front of horde of ten thousand brogrammers out of job, and looking to make a name.

    If a product DRM is based on my user account details in DAZ Store, what will happen when the inevitable happens and crackers break the security of either store, user account or content?

    What details content will sing out to the world about user who bought it when it gets inevitably cracked? Because it will.

    What security protocol DStudio will use to contact cloud or store?

    Is the encryption protocol based on something in common use (such as openSSL) or something "done in-house"?

    What level of encryption is used? 256 bit? 512 bit? 1024 bit? 2048 bit? 4096 bit?

    Who has signed the security cert? Are users able to view it, like they can view browser security certs?

    I'm not sure how a possible crack of the encryption would place your detaisl at risk - they'd already need access to your machine or your account to get the files keyed to your account in th first place. You won't be online (unless you choose to be) while working in DS itself and not installing content (assuming you don't install via the separate download and offline mode that's been mentioned).

    As I understand from what Rawb just said, there's encryption on the files, and a separate keyfile that's actually keyed to your account, similar to the metadata files they send us with the existing DIMs. If you don't have the keyfile in question, the content won't work. If they don't have the keyfile, then your account would be secure. Those of us who make things would have to use DIM or manual installation to send things to the testing team.

    So for me, nothing changes except being able to stack eight G3Fs in their clothes on a Stonemason set without the memory corruption errors that have plagued me since adopting Iray, the loveable scamp.

  • SimonJMSimonJM Posts: 4,910
    edited October 2015

    This has not been a fun read.  I have no problem with protecting the work of the PAs who produce the content that I buy (I even sometimes use it!), I really do not like piracy.  I also really do not like 'the cloud', Steam (or Steam-like things to the effect of that despite loving the game Morrowind, I refuse to buy the sequel which requires a Steam account to authenticate).  I have no opinion on DRM (beyond a wish to be able to 'use' what I buy where I like) as I do not have anything that uses it :)

    I think some of my concerns (which are deep enough to make me step away from DAZ as a vendor) have been addressed and the fears mainly allayed.

    Change is inevitable, and I will (often reluctantly) go along in the knowledge that I am not yet enough of an old dog to be unable to learn new tricks.  One of my concerns is all the references to 'products available ..' in the menu structure, implying an active network connection to determine the data.  I really do not want that, even if it's only a few KB of metadata.  If you TRULY want to stuff up an application or program (or even OS) have it choke on a bad connection (for whatever reason).  If I opt (which I suspect I will) to upgrade to 5.9 (and no, I am not installing the beta to try it) I think I am going to be disabling this Connect service.

    I don't care about encryption, really.  Yes, I have looked through files to correct paths, etc., in the past but I can live without doing so :)  What I DO care about is the ability to download content on one machine (and NOT install it there) to an external HDD and then, later, install that downloaded content on another computer.  With DIM I can, and do, do this.  I get the distinct impression this will be a thing of the past very soon.

    Without Smart Content a LOT of things in DS do not work: auto-fit, etc.  As I mention above there are a LOT of suggestions in the menu structure that options require Connect.  So one question is: what will not work with Connect inactive.  Another question is: how badly will general Daz Studio performance be impacted by laggy network connections?

    Post edited by SimonJM on
  • RenpatsuRenpatsu Posts: 828
    edited October 2015

    To sum it up regarding DRM:

    • It heavily annoys legit customers
    • It will be a speed bump for pirates only
    • Once the DRM protection gets circumvented you will even have legit customers looking for non-DRM content on pirated sites to remove any annoyance they have with it
    Post edited by Renpatsu on
  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
     

    Hand editing files, or saving out the back end assets in an attempt to circumvent the encryption is not going to work. Nothing else changes. 

    Then, you, Daz, are going to update and keep things like PowerPose complete and updated?

    Because right now, anything to do with PowerPose is a community supported effort that DOES require hand editing files.  

    Are all third party plugins, that will now be encrypted be instantly updated when there is a change/update to the SDK/render engine...manually recompiling shaders was a very easy fix, when a 3DL update required it.  And yes, it took a very long time for some of them to be recompiled officially.

    Of course the first casualty is fixing the not completely rare absolute path errors, yes in store content...currently these take several days to fix.  Days where an item that may have been bought to meet a deadline can't be used, if the error can't be manually corrected.  Or is Customer Support going to get that much faster and have a mini-update in an hour or so after the error has been reported?

  • IceCrMnIceCrMn Posts: 966
    Skiriki said:

    I'm not sure how a possible crack of the encryption would place your detaisl at risk - they'd already need access to your machine or your account to get the files keyed to your account in th first place. You won't be online (unless you choose to be) while working in DS itself and not installing content (assuming you don't install via the separate download and offline mode that's been mentioned).

    Is it possible for someone to write a DS script which maliciously tries to lift user details and then forward them to a third party? An attack from inside, much like macro-viruses for Microsoft Word.

    Laptop/desktop theft? There is a tick for "remember me" in 4.9's login details.

    But the question of security protocol is important in these days of data snooping.

    Could we just have the darn details here. angry Please. This should be basic information.

    This would require the user to download, install , and execute the script.

    This is one of the reasons why items found on warez sites should not be trusted.It may not be your Daz Studio content they are after, it maybe your bank account instead.

  • SkirikiSkiriki Posts: 4,936
    icecrmn said:

    according to this estimate, it will take around 1 Billion years to brute force a 128bit key. http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1279619

    The real problems are man in the middle, and phising.

    I'm sure most of you have already heard about the recent Experian breach, and how it was done.

    So to answer your question, No security measure is perfect.That doesn't mean we should stop using them.

    Brute force is not the only method of attack.

    http://arstechnica.com/security/2015/10/how-the-nsa-can-break-trillions-of-encrypted-web-and-vpn-connections/

    About DRM-cracking: Once you have enough study-samples of things -- say, a bunch of people create accounts and buy some cheap item or two, all of them get the same product, and then pool them for comparison, and since this is just a test run, they know the usernames and passwords and can do testing 'till they find it; servers can be cracked for master key; buildings and data houses aren't impenetrable.

    Once again, I repeat: I have more experience about running into problems with DRM-enabled content rather than DRM-free content. And I, the grouchy I-will-rip-your-guts-out system person, must deal with people who give me puppy-eyes and expect me to do miracles 1,000+ miles away.

  • DAZ_Vince said:

    How can I get new products through Daz Connect?

    At the bottom of the Smart Content pane you will see a page titled “Store.”  This will show you the most popular products related to what is selected in your library and scene.  For example, if you are looking at hair in your library to choose one for your scene, the Store page will show you some of the most popular hair items that you do not own yet and may want to consider.

    Nice. (Merchandizing.) Horror. :)

    It was mentioned by other DAZ employees (Daz_Rawb: We went out of our way to make sure that Daz Connect doesn't send any detailed information up to the server. Even the store pane was specially programmed to handle the filtering of products without sending information about what is selected to the server (unless you manually type in a search term into the store pane)) - but this would be I guess a rather important thing:

    We customers would definately not like our loaded scenes get scanned/analyzed by DAZ: "Oh, your model seems to wear only lingerie - you might want to purchase this Business Suit." Or: "Your M6 and F7" seem to perform some actions which are not covered with our family-orientated guidelines" or "What are these dildo or tentacle props in your scene - they are certainly not purchased in our DAZ Shop, you pervert ?" :)  

    There is certainly a thing named privacy, and you should respect it in any case - certainly it will be essential for your further business. You should repeat it again and again or make it very clear once more - if there is a default channel which is sending information about my scene and my used items up to DAZ - it's over.

This discussion has been closed.