Daz Studio Pro BETA - version 4.9.0.21!

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  • shadowhawk1shadowhawk1 Posts: 1,631

    Back on Page 3 I asked a question about security and 'daz content' which hasn't been addressed, would someone care to take a look and answer? I believe in todays age of 'hacking is fun' this needs to be addressed.

  • araneldonaraneldon Posts: 704
    CypherFOX said:

    Greetings,

    araneldon said:

    It might slow down pirates. It will definitely inconvenience users. It will definitely reduce the value of content by reducing customers' ability to utilize it.

    You know what?  You don't give in to the bad guys, even if their victory is assured.  You make it hard as hell for them to win, because then some of them will drop off.

    Maybe also don't use a remedy that is worse than the disease.

  •  

    Clearly you believed you had to change it in the past. Giving the customer more options and more power, while preserving the ability to update products without having to go hunt and helping solve the number one customer complaint strikes you as a bad idea? 

    No... FORCING us to change is what's a bad idea.

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 3,526
    edited October 2015

    >All Content sold at Daz 3D has, as part of the readme, a file list which shows where things are. >The link to the readme is right in the DIM interface. 

    You do not understand user. even though user get read me document about content, and they can understand where each file are stored, that never means user can understand each directory meaning. you need simply show DAZ content file structure, then guide them clear. eg in data directory which file may stored, and file type , how it will work. or you believe all new ds user understand, cr2 or pp2 or duf or dsf and each preset file meaning? and understand save option? even though veteran user, sometimes lost which case it work or not.

    >You can determine through DIM where, exactly, each piece of content you installed actually got >installed. The DIM capability is documented right in the interface and is simple to find. 

    no simple. DIM capability not actually be understood for many user. then they do not toch it. there seems many big border,from "user" and " DAZ programmer" feel it is documented well. it can be understand if they know clear file structure of DS and content. then they can understand how DIM work.

    >Since this is still the primary customer service ticket submitted, documentation did not provided >the solution and the issue needed to be further addressed. 

    The first step, I can recommend is just delete all old un-usable topic from sticky. because user may serch sticky topic, and hope to find answer when they get trouble. but there are too many lost link and not fit with current version DS.

    Post edited by kitakoredaz on
  • Wilmap said:

    Unfortunately someone out there will find a way around the encryption. You won't stop piracy I'm afraid.

    Probably, but at least the efforts trying to decode and avoid encryption will discourage thieves. Believe me it's not nice at all when you see your hard work published on most warez and torrent sites within 24 hours after the release.

    You are forgetting that its the challenge that alot of these pirates are into. As soon as new and shiny DRM goes up, its just going to be that much more intviting for them to try and crack it.

    So what then? Lets say that DAZ DRM proves useless against piracy. Should DAZ clamp down even more on the usability of its product? Should DAZ then require an always online state?

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    DAZ_Rawb said:

    My biggest issue is that I am working in Iraq and my internet is barely above dialup and prone to yo-yo'ing up and down at any give time. Going to a cloud based system for new purchases is something that will make things extremely difficult or impossible. When it took me 3 hours to download the esential setup for G2 and has taken me anywhere from 35 minutes to over an hour to download a file that is in the 80mb to 120mb range, this will will take unacceptable amounts of time to work this way. What options are goint to be made available for myself and others that have less than high speed connections? 

    With the default online mode for Daz Connect it should probably give you a better shot at good downloads because the packages are split into individual file downloads so it is easier to resume and complete smaller files. If you sometimes have access to a higher speed connection then downloading the offline packages (which are still a work in progress) would be an option, then you can just bring them back to your computer with Daz Studio on it.

    Unfortunately that is not an option here, I work with secure systems that do not allow the use of usb drives or unauthorized CD's for reasons that you can imagine are pretty obvious. The personal internet is not fast enough to allow streaming skype video,most of the time. I realize that a big part of this is to stop the torrent sites and pirates from stealing from the PA's which I think is great, but it is at the expense of artist that modify thier libraries to create a better workflow, people who have poor or limited internet connection, or for those that keep thier render machines off the net. Were these issues considered when developing this "cloud" approach? And with this age of hacking what steps are going to be taken to prevent malicious persons from doing what they seem to do best? 

    You do not need to be online to use your content. You only need to be online to download content, either new or updates, or to use the in application purchase functionality. Of course you needed to be online to download content or purchase content before 4.9, that aspect has not really changed. The difference is that now you will only have to download those parts of a product that have been updated, or failed to properly download when you were on before.  

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100

     

    Clearly you believed you had to change it in the past. Giving the customer more options and more power, while preserving the ability to update products without having to go hunt and helping solve the number one customer complaint strikes you as a bad idea? 

    No... FORCING us to change is what's a bad idea.

    You are not forced to change. You can keep using everything you have exactly as you use it now. 

  • MasterstrokeMasterstroke Posts: 456
    edited October 2015

    What does this mean for customizing purchased content and saving it to my library for personal use?

    Post edited by Masterstroke on
  • DavidGBDavidGB Posts: 537

    This is where some long term users like me feel ignored.

    Smart content for DAZ stuff is all very well, but I've been buying (and getting free) content since 2004 from many different stores and sources. The DAZ stuff with smart content metadata is still a small proportion of the total. Am I going to go through all the rest giving it smart content data? Hell no. With limited time on the computer from disability, I couldn't even if I wanted to spend every waking hour of many months doing it.

    And I don't start with a product in the store and go 'Ooh, shiney, now what render could I do with that?'; An image I want to render comes into my head without any thought of recent store products, and then i start searching my content for the clothes, props etc to fit my mental image. And, yes, that can easily and often mean pulling up some Poser format prop I got in 2005, or an M3 clothing item from 2004 I need to start converting to G2M. My content is mostly in three 'places': my main Poser runtime, my pre-DS4 format DS content folder, and my DS4 format My Library. I need to find stuff looking between all three - often comparing different versions to find which is the best of such-and-such style of jacket between different versions etc to fit the need at that moment. So because the DAZ smart content is a tiny proportion, I actually have a folder based filing system in use in the three different product locations which I understand, and actually very often search for content not in DS at all or DIM, but by runnning searches in the Windows Explorer windows for approptiate top level folders in each of the three product locations. And having found what I want, I can then see exactly which folder where to go to in the DS Content library pane.

    Having JUST the small minority of DS Smart Content content having to be searched for in a completely different way to the rest would simply complicate things, not make them simpler.

    But for some time now It's been all about the new customers, never mind the old guys.

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100

    What does this mean for customizing purchased content and saving it to my library for personal use?

    For most use cases, it doesn't change things. 

  • BeeMKayBeeMKay Posts: 5,322

     

    Clearly you believed you had to change it in the past. Giving the customer more options and more power, while preserving the ability to update products without having to go hunt and helping solve the number one customer complaint strikes you as a bad idea?

    No... FORCING us to change is what's a bad idea.

    You are not forced to change. You can keep using everything you have exactly as you use it now.

    But in  the future, we won't because of the policy change that everything new will be DAZ Connect only.

  • araneldonaraneldon Posts: 704

    What does this mean for customizing purchased content and saving it to my library for personal use?

    For most use cases, it doesn't change things. 

    That is not much of an answer. Most could mean as high as 90% or as little as 55%. Which is it? What does it change?

  • lee_lhs said:

     

    Clearly you believed you had to change it in the past. Giving the customer more options and more power, while preserving the ability to update products without having to go hunt and helping solve the number one customer complaint strikes you as a bad idea?

    No... FORCING us to change is what's a bad idea.

    You are not forced to change. You can keep using everything you have exactly as you use it now.

    But in  the future, we won't because of the policy change that everything new will be DAZ Connect only.

    And exactly how long do you think it will be before DAZ makes this a requirement of all DAZ content regardless of what store it came from?  Trying to corner the market is nothing but greedy.

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    araneldon said:

    What does this mean for customizing purchased content and saving it to my library for personal use?

    For most use cases, it doesn't change things. 

    That is not much of an answer. Most could mean as high as 90% or as little as 55%. Which is it? What does it change?

    That depends on exactly what the question is asking. 

    Hand editing files, or saving out the back end assets in an attempt to circumvent the encryption is not going to work. Nothing else changes. 

    For example, loading a figure, changing the texture, adjusting the shaders, changing some shaping dials and saving out a character preset, material preset, shader preset, shaping preset, all still work the same. Using autofit to convert clothing, adjusting things like the smoothing modifier, and saving a wearable preset, still works exactly the same. 

  • IvyIvy Posts: 3,924

    I want to re interate my comment on this thread.

    I will say this again. I do not like this change one bit , No sir not one bit.

    I love using Daz Studio,  Studio4.8 is the Bomb. But I see no improvements worth me upgrading to 4.9, The only benefit i see to downloading the 4.9 studio is for daz to be able to control how i download and use my content in the future. I love how the UI is now in 4.8 I don't need a nanny for my content.. .  So what I have read here has given me enough information to decide that Daz4.8 will be the last copy of Daz Studio I will be downloading. When the Daz Store come to the point they will no longer be supporting a simple Zip file download for the product I bought.  then that will be the day that I will  I will no longer be purchasing products here at daz. I am sorry Daz  no matter  how much Daz claims its because of the changes of web, and it will improved  user experience I am calling BS,.., The web will always continue to support a simple zip file. My Android Nexus has App for handling PK & winzip zip files content I can load onto a Mirco sd card..

    Anyway  this not a decision I have taken lightly considering the amount of time and vast amount of money I have invested in using Daz Studio software.   Though its true I will not be able to get new products and the new bright and shiny updates, I feel I have enough content to last a life time that I can use now in my current version of Studio 3a & 4.8,  Poser.

    I thank you daz very much for giving me he opportunity to learn a new way fo doing Illustration and 3d and I have really enjoyed the friends I have made here and sharing what I have learned..  But in all good conscience  I can not continue to use  or support a product that feels like they need to nanny me and my content.   I now relies loyalty means nothing,   8 years I have invested here at daz spending around $ 100 a month you can do the math. on what total I have spent here., though I will admitt I have spent a heck of a lot less since genesis 3 came out. So  I will take with the last copy of daz studio 4.8  I will use all the content that is offered that will support  when that runs out so has my buying days here.

    This has been a very sad turn of events  I do not like this change not one bit to the point  when I can no longer get a simple zip download for the product i buy then I am done with buying any more daz products.

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    lee_lhs said:

     

    Clearly you believed you had to change it in the past. Giving the customer more options and more power, while preserving the ability to update products without having to go hunt and helping solve the number one customer complaint strikes you as a bad idea?

    No... FORCING us to change is what's a bad idea.

    You are not forced to change. You can keep using everything you have exactly as you use it now.

    But in  the future, we won't because of the policy change that everything new will be DAZ Connect only.

    I do not have a working crystal ball and will not attempt to predict the future. 

  •  

    Clearly you believed you had to change it in the past. Giving the customer more options and more power, while preserving the ability to update products without having to go hunt and helping solve the number one customer complaint strikes you as a bad idea? 

    No... FORCING us to change is what's a bad idea.

    You are not forced to change. You can keep using everything you have exactly as you use it now. 

    And when 4.9 comes out of beta? And you start putting out new 4.9 content through Connect? What then?

  • Adjusting several existing morphs, adding zBrush custom morphs to it, export it all as *.obj, in order bake everything as a single morph file - all exclusivly for personal use, will this work?

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100

    Adjusting several existing morphs, adding zBrush custom morphs to it, export it all as *.obj, in order bake everything as a single morph file - all exclusivly for personal use, will this work?

    Yes. 

  • KhoryKhory Posts: 3,846

    "It will definitely inconvenience users."

    I doubt that the majority of users will notice any change at all much less be inconvienced. I know that other than downloading in the program rather than starting a seperate one to do the job I'm not seeing any difference at all. Now were I planning to download it to "share" I might be inconvienced but that is an issue I am never going to come up against. I think that some are getting the impression (based on no experiance with the new version) that things are dramaticaly changed somehow. That simply isn't true. The biggest change for me has been being able to see more clearly the products I own.

  • araneldonaraneldon Posts: 704

    You left out a whole bunch of uses involving applications other than DAZ Studio.

    I'm not interested in just loading and rendering other people's art. If I can't change a mesh, or use a product in Blender for example, then it's not worth much to me.

  • lee_lhs said:

     

    Clearly you believed you had to change it in the past. Giving the customer more options and more power, while preserving the ability to update products without having to go hunt and helping solve the number one customer complaint strikes you as a bad idea?

    No... FORCING us to change is what's a bad idea.

    You are not forced to change. You can keep using everything you have exactly as you use it now.

    But in  the future, we won't because of the policy change that everything new will be DAZ Connect only.

    I do not have a working crystal ball and will not attempt to predict the future. 

    Oh, I will attempt to predict the future. Since DAZ is mearly copying everyone else, it seems only logical that DAZ will follow the same trajectory as every other software corporation which means, restricted useability and further loss of consumer rites.

  • araneldonaraneldon Posts: 704
    Khory said:

    "It will definitely inconvenience users."

    I doubt that the majority of users will notice any change at all much less be inconvienced.

    I didn't say majority. It's painfully obvious that most DAZ Studio users are perfectly happy to just buy, load and render other people's creations.

  • th3Digitth3Digit Posts: 16,233

    I can only say I am amazed at how many DAZ studio users are upset about this

    I am a Carrara and iClone user and sometimes Poser user and I guess I have become numb to the boot up the rear already and am not surprised by any of it.

    I find work arounds where I can, have done so for years but if it gets too hard it might just force me to spend more time in Zbrush and learn Poser rigging too, at least I have a lot of DAZ content already so no real need for more new stuff that is studio only anyway.

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    araneldon said:

    You left out a whole bunch of uses involving applications other than DAZ Studio.

    I'm not interested in just loading and rendering other people's art. If I can't change a mesh, or use a product in Blender for example, then it's not worth much to me.

    Exporters are unchanged. FBX and OBJ export are unaffected. The Bridges (Go-Z, Hex and Bryce) are unaffected. 

  • CypherFOX said:

    Greetings,

    araneldon said:

    It might slow down pirates. It will definitely inconvenience users. It will definitely reduce the value of content by reducing customers' ability to utilize it.

    You know what?  You don't give in to the bad guys, even if their victory is assured.  You make it hard as hell for them to win, because then some of them will drop off.

     

    So this IS DRM to protect Content Creators and NOT a more user friendly method for managing content which has been posited  by Daz.., which is it.??? I am confused.

    S.K.

    No you're not, that's disingenuous and doesn't help the conversation.  DAZ worked out what they feel is a more user friendly way to manage content, and realized that if they went that way, it was also possible to provide at-rest encryption that helps protect the artists who sell through the DAZ store.  Both of these things can be true at the same time.

    I have seen several people publicly quit the forums and DAZ (and actually stick to it!) because they, in one of their words, 'feel like 3D is database administration, not artwork'.  Because they couldn't handle the constant stress of sorting where their files went.  I can EASILY imagine that DAZ gets 40-50 support emails a month from new (and existing) users who have no idea where their content installed to.  Hell, more than half the time I don't, but at least I know how to do the product, SKU, readme dance (or launch DIM, which I often forget to do).  It sucks that I have to do that, as someone who's actually experienced with the program.

    I'm not a fan of DRM.  I've enjoyed being able to parse DUF files myself, and do interesting things with them, and I'm sad to see that go.

    The absolutely shitty Poser-based directory structure, or having to manually sort and file over 5,000 installed products?  To HELL with that.  I'll take a FIXED Smart Content over that, any day.  And Smart Content has been changed.  I can't say if it's been fixed yet, but the ability to not only show stuff that's compatible with what's selected is a really good start.

    --  Morgan

     

     

    CypherFOX said:

    Greetings,

    araneldon said:

    It might slow down pirates. It will definitely inconvenience users. It will definitely reduce the value of content by reducing customers' ability to utilize it.

    You know what?  You don't give in to the bad guys, even if their victory is assured.  You make it hard as hell for them to win, because then some of them will drop off.

     

    So this IS DRM to protect Content Creators and NOT a more user friendly method for managing content which has been posited  by Daz.., which is it.??? I am confused.

    S.K.

    No you're not, that's disingenuous and doesn't help the conversation.  DAZ worked out what they feel is a more user friendly way to manage content, and realized that if they went that way, it was also possible to provide at-rest encryption that helps protect the artists who sell through the DAZ store.  Both of these things can be true at the same time.

    I have seen several people publicly quit the forums and DAZ (and actually stick to it!) because they, in one of their words, 'feel like 3D is database administration, not artwork'.  Because they couldn't handle the constant stress of sorting where their files went.  I can EASILY imagine that DAZ gets 40-50 support emails a month from new (and existing) users who have no idea where their content installed to.  Hell, more than half the time I don't, but at least I know how to do the product, SKU, readme dance (or launch DIM, which I often forget to do).  It sucks that I have to do that, as someone who's actually experienced with the program.

    I'm not a fan of DRM.  I've enjoyed being able to parse DUF files myself, and do interesting things with them, and I'm sad to see that go.

    The absolutely shitty Poser-based directory structure, or having to manually sort and file over 5,000 installed products?  To HELL with that.  I'll take a FIXED Smart Content over that, any day.  And Smart Content has been changed.  I can't say if it's been fixed yet, but the ability to not only show stuff that's compatible with what's selected is a really good start.

    --  Morgan

     

    Yes it WAS disigenous to say I was confused..., but that same term also applies when It has been stated that this is being done JUST for users benefit. If this is ALSO being put in place to help protect Content from piracy then just state that as a goal of the upgrade/new downloading and encryption method.

    S.K.

  • DavidGBDavidGB Posts: 537
    araneldon said:

    What does this mean for customizing purchased content and saving it to my library for personal use?

    For most use cases, it doesn't change things. 

    That is not much of an answer. Most could mean as high as 90% or as little as 55%. Which is it? What does it change?

    That depends on exactly what the question is asking. 

    Hand editing files, or saving out the back end assets in an attempt to circumvent the encryption is not going to work. Nothing else changes. 

    For example, loading a figure, changing the texture, adjusting the shaders, changing some shaping dials and saving out a character preset, material preset, shader preset, shaping preset, all still work the same. Using autofit to convert clothing, adjusting things like the smoothing modifier, and saving a wearable preset, still works exactly the same. 


    Ah, that answers my post from the previous page.

    I have, up to now, spent a fair amount of time examining and editing the data folder .dsf files to find and fix faults in the products, enhance functionaility, or re-purpose (for my own use). I won't be able to do that for futire products, then. So this is one customer you will be losing.

    Just as regards something else you said a few posts back - the majority of times I've pressed the button in DIM to take me to a product ReadMe to either see if the product has been updated, or what has been updated, or to see the installed files list because I'm having trouble finding them, it's taken me to a 'zz*-' page, with a placeholder ReadMe that has no information, no list of updates, and no file list. And quite often this has been with GENESIS products as well as the really old stuff. You still have not-done ReadMe's with no file list for products in the 15000-15999 file range, never ,mind earlier.

  • BeeMKayBeeMKay Posts: 5,322
    edited October 2015
    lee_lhs said:

     

    Clearly you believed you had to change it in the past. Giving the customer more options and more power, while preserving the ability to update products without having to go hunt and helping solve the number one customer complaint strikes you as a bad idea?

    No... FORCING us to change is what's a bad idea.

    You are not forced to change. You can keep using everything you have exactly as you use it now.

    But in  the future, we won't because of the policy change that everything new will be DAZ Connect only.

    I do not have a working crystal ball and will not attempt to predict the future.

    You don't have to use the crystal ball. It was clearly stated in the FAQ for the release, by DAZ_Vince:

    Are all products Daz Connect ready?

    New products, as well as a huge selection of older products, will be offered through Daz Connect right away, with more of the older products having Daz Connect support added in the future. Our plans are for existing products that have been offered through non-Daz Connect methods to continue to be offered in those ways as well as through Daz Connect. New products will begin to migrate toward a Daz Connect-only delivery.

    Even if the EULA itself will not change, this will defacto force everyone who buys at DAZ store to download DS, and then use DAZ Connector to download and verify the purchase, whereas nowadays you don't have to install DS if you want to download your purchases.

    Post edited by BeeMKay on
  • HavosHavos Posts: 3,135

    One of the more baffling aspects of this is that DAZ has only recently launched Genesis 3 and this switched to more industry standard methods for weight mapping and UV mapping. I would assume the reason behind this was that it would make the products more attractive to users of apps other than DS. Now they introduce encryption that completely undoes that work. I guess you can argue you can use FBX or the like to export the products to these other apps, but if it is that easy to export the figure with full fuctionality, then so can the pirates.

  • SkirikiSkiriki Posts: 4,923
    edited October 2015

    I'm going to look at some things which seem EXTREMELY PROBLEMATIC to me. I cannot touch Poser, Bryce, Carrara, Blender etc side, since I don't use 'em, but I'm sure their users have already voiced their opinion about it.

    To consume less disk space, making it easier to keep products in the Daz cloud until you actually need them, as well as no longer store zip files for products on your local computer.

    You are making a problem out of a thing which is not a problem. HD space is cheap, and I want to store .zip files. There is nothing unusual in wanting to store .zip files, especially if you've worked in IT in administrational side. A local backup is a glorious thing to possess.

    While I approve ease-of-install idea, there will be situations where "downloading stuff from cloud" to fix the problem is not going to be the most optimal solution.

    To help the artist community, which suffers from seeing its hard work stolen and published on pirate sites, by making purchases easier and more streamlined, while making piracy more difficult by encrypting products.

    We strive to add great benefits to being connected while limiting the impact to the user experience. Although we have included file encryption to protect our artist community, the primary target is to provide a better experience for our users. Daz Connect delivers and updates products more efficiently but relies on the fact that files are in a location and format that is maintained by the application. In this sense, Daz Connect provides some measure of digital rights management.

    Encryption has never stopped pirates, merely slowed them down a notch. But it also harms legit users, and I can say that I've had to help users a whole load more when it comes to helping with DRM'ed content, than content which is DRM-free.

    Furthermore, the idea that cloud will keep content secure and safe is a pie-in-a-sky dream. Usernames and passwords can be stolen, cracked, and so on. Hey, congratulations, you've opened a new vector of attack to phishing attacks as well!

    What kind of guarantee we have about safety of DAZ Studio's connections to cloud and store? What level of encryption and what protocol will be used for connecting DAZ Store? Will we be notified of data breaches or other potentially safety-endangering problems? Is there a possibility of someone writing a hostile script in in-built scripting language and unleashing it on us this way? 

    If your goal is to change where files installed using Daz Connect show up in the Content Library pane, you can create custom categories and arrange them as you wish.

    Does this mean I can organize my install like this? I've set up DIM to download, and then I tell it to install X, Y and Z to, say, People, and A, B and C to Props and Prop-like Figures.

    Because I need to do this, this is seriously not a joke. I'm too addled to deal with content unless it is set up my way.

    content_library.png
    20K
    Post edited by Skiriki on
This discussion has been closed.