Genesis 9

xyer0

outrider42 said:

If you are using them as is, the normal maps that bluejaunte uses are too compressed. The compression artifacts will show in closer shots. I remove the normal maps he has entirely now, and either use a HD morph or another set of normals. I ran into the problem you probably are getting, and at first I didn't realize what the issue was. It is all compression. Thankfully the important dual lobe textures don't suffer this.

Some of his color textures have compression in them as well. This isn't as big a problem, but can be visible under the right circumstances. I retouched some of these textures in different ways to get rid of the 'blockiness' I saw.

Finally, the displacement map that he started using on feet is pretty compressed, too. I tried different things. I upscaled it and resized it, and I repainted it a bit all to try and get that compression blockiness out.

I know that sounds like a lot, and it kind of is, lol. But the textures he uses for dual lobe are fantastic, and I haven't seen anybody else quite match that. The bump maps are fairly good, they are not as compressed like the other textures. I have touched them up in spots at times. The inner hands and feet being the targets.

So for those skin presets, just ditch the original normals. You may not even need normals depending on your intention anyway.

If bluejaunte happens to be reading this, don't be disheartened, your characters are still great. But I would really love it if they used less compression on these certain textures. If you have a raw uncompressed version of any of your textures, I'd love to have them. I'd pay!

Texture compression is a problem I am finding with a lot of products, especially environments. I urge PAs to please use better quality textures. I am sure some people will still cry that a product is too big of a download or something, but in my opinion it is better to have that quality than not. Textures can easily be resized or compressed by users. But it is very hard to get detail back into a texture that is horribly compressed and/or low resolution. I am not saying we need 100MB TIF textures, just not overly compressed textures. There is no point in having a 4K texture if it is highly compressed.

Thanks to my earlier exchange with you, yesterday I tried using normals from another character I liked on my main bluejaunte skin, and my problem was solved. Those bumps seem a little suspect too, but I left them alone. bluejaunte has hacked making a Genesis figure look like a photographed human being, and I'd use his figures as-is if I didn't need for my main character to have zero associations. Feet aren't an issue for me, since my characters are usually shod. Thanks for the follow-up, as I'm now back in business. 

morrisonmp

Wonderland said:

morrisonmp said:

I have been experimenting with Genesis 9 characters (Michael, Minerva, Victoria, and a couple others) and while the textures are good and the facial improvements are excellent... I still hate the bodies. Gen9 is weirdly doughy and roundy and the proportions just "feel" wrong. I have not been able to make a G9 character yet (and I bought several of the morph sets as well) that I actually like having in a scene. And to me, YMMV, they don't fit well in scenes with G8/G8.1 models because the entire approach to making them just feels so very different.

I'd love to see some new sculpts using the G9 innovations that are not so odd-bodied.

Sorry for the rant... but the G9s just feel super weird to me.
 

I agree. G9/V9 is a bit too pudgy and short for my taste and the arms seem too long and legs too short. Some characters seem to have the head too small for the body.  I know I can change all that but if I want to use stock poses it's extra work to make them work with proportions I use. I already make most G8 characters taller with longer legs and G9 needs even a bigger stretch. The only advantage I see now are the eyes and quick load time because I have very few G9 characters. It is kind of fun creating more characters from scratch though with G9 because I often get lazy mixing several G8 characters together rather than work on individual morphs. G9 will take longer to morph/pose but I'll probably be more creative doing it. 

 

That's something I hadn't quite been able to put my finger on yet... The legs. I can't unsee it now. The legs are too short. I was just looking at the new muscle morphs pack images (on the store today) and I was like... yep, the legs feel wrong. 

vonHobo

morrisonmp said:

Wonderland said:

morrisonmp said:

I have been experimenting with Genesis 9 characters (Michael, Minerva, Victoria, and a couple others) and while the textures are good and the facial improvements are excellent... I still hate the bodies. Gen9 is weirdly doughy and roundy and the proportions just "feel" wrong. I have not been able to make a G9 character yet (and I bought several of the morph sets as well) that I actually like having in a scene. And to me, YMMV, they don't fit well in scenes with G8/G8.1 models because the entire approach to making them just feels so very different.

I'd love to see some new sculpts using the G9 innovations that are not so odd-bodied.

Sorry for the rant... but the G9s just feel super weird to me.
 

I agree. G9/V9 is a bit too pudgy and short for my taste and the arms seem too long and legs too short. Some characters seem to have the head too small for the body.  I know I can change all that but if I want to use stock poses it's extra work to make them work with proportions I use. I already make most G8 characters taller with longer legs and G9 needs even a bigger stretch. The only advantage I see now are the eyes and quick load time because I have very few G9 characters. It is kind of fun creating more characters from scratch though with G9 because I often get lazy mixing several G8 characters together rather than work on individual morphs. G9 will take longer to morph/pose but I'll probably be more creative doing it. 

 

That's something I hadn't quite been able to put my finger on yet... The legs. I can't unsee it now. The legs are too short. I was just looking at the new muscle morphs pack images (on the store today) and I was like... yep, the legs feel wrong. 

DAZ says on their Genesis 9 promo page that the proportions for G9 are "realistic human measurements". 

• "Genesis 9 figure measurements have been meticulously crafted to match real-world averages."

I have noticed the same thing, but is it possible that we are so used to G8 (and older generation) proportions, that when we see more accurate, real-world proportions on G9 we tend to think it looks unnatural? Could it be that G9 is indeed more accurate than older generations and we just need to adjust our expectations from what we have been used to seeing?

In my opinion, the approach DAZ is taking to real-world averages is a good one. The figures that the PA's produce can then diverge from this to create a model with longer legs, etc. if that is what appeals to a purchaser.

It's kind of like Instagram is not really what most people look like in everyday life, but that's what people are drawn to on Instagram (airbrushed models). 

 

Oso3D

Go on ArtStation and look at some of the model photos. If you think their legs are consistently too short, well.

Also if you think the legs are too short, it's trivially easy to change that. (Proportion Leg Length being the most obvious)

 

vonHobo

Oso3D said:

Go on ArtStation and look at some of the model photos. If you think their legs are consistently too short, well.

Also if you think the legs are too short, it's trivially easy to change that. (Proportion Leg Length being the most obvious)

 

ArtStation is huge, not sure where to look for this? Unless you mean in general.

Can you provide a link because I would like to see what you mean? 

morrisonmp

von Hobo said:

morrisonmp said:

Wonderland said:

morrisonmp said:

I have been experimenting with Genesis 9 characters (Michael, Minerva, Victoria, and a couple others) and while the textures are good and the facial improvements are excellent... I still hate the bodies. Gen9 is weirdly doughy and roundy and the proportions just "feel" wrong. I have not been able to make a G9 character yet (and I bought several of the morph sets as well) that I actually like having in a scene. And to me, YMMV, they don't fit well in scenes with G8/G8.1 models because the entire approach to making them just feels so very different.

I'd love to see some new sculpts using the G9 innovations that are not so odd-bodied.

Sorry for the rant... but the G9s just feel super weird to me.
 

I agree. G9/V9 is a bit too pudgy and short for my taste and the arms seem too long and legs too short. Some characters seem to have the head too small for the body.  I know I can change all that but if I want to use stock poses it's extra work to make them work with proportions I use. I already make most G8 characters taller with longer legs and G9 needs even a bigger stretch. The only advantage I see now are the eyes and quick load time because I have very few G9 characters. It is kind of fun creating more characters from scratch though with G9 because I often get lazy mixing several G8 characters together rather than work on individual morphs. G9 will take longer to morph/pose but I'll probably be more creative doing it. 

 

That's something I hadn't quite been able to put my finger on yet... The legs. I can't unsee it now. The legs are too short. I was just looking at the new muscle morphs pack images (on the store today) and I was like... yep, the legs feel wrong. 

DAZ says on their Genesis 9 promo page that the proportions for G9 are "realistic human measurements". 

• "Genesis 9 figure measurements have been meticulously crafted to match real-world averages."

I have noticed the same thing, but is it possible that we are so used to G8 (and older generation) proportions, that when we see more accurate, real-world proportions on G9 we tend to think it looks unnatural? Could it be that G9 is indeed more accurate than older generations and we just need to adjust our expectations from what we have been used to seeing?

In my opinion, the approach DAZ is taking to real-world averages is a good one. The figures that the PA's produce can then diverge from this to create a model with longer legs, etc. if that is what appeals to a purchaser.

It's kind of like Instagram is not really what most people look like in everyday life, but that's what people are drawn to on Instagram (airbrushed models). 

 

 I don't think it's about adjusting out perceptions. I think it's about what we like. I fell in love with the G8/G8.1 style of models and I think they look great. The G9's whether they are more real-to-life than older generations is not really the issue. I find them oddly doughy and off-putting with all the attention on creating wonderful faces and the bodies looking like odd. It's really a preference thing. And I'll keep using G8/8.1 for a long time, I'm sure. As has been pointed out in the past, there is no shortage of options for G8. I would like to see a utility for converting the new g9 clothes and hairs back to g8. That would be a nice item. But other than that... yeah, I think it just comes down to preference. I'm sure as G9 evolves, we'll see more variety in the creations.

Oso3D

Trivially easy to adjust G9 even with start pack:

 

vonHobo

Oso3D said:

Trivially easy to adjust G9 even with start pack:

 

Those are definitely some loooooong legs! 

Oso3D

She knoooows how to uuuuse them!

Base Feminine 100%, Proportion Arms Length -96.7%, Proportion Legs Length 200%, Proportion Torso Length -117.3%

Josie skin, though like usual I changed Transmitted color from bright orange to a light peach.

 

Masterstroke

The legs are too short. I was just looking at the new muscle morphs pack images (on the store today) and I was like... yep, the legs feel wrong. 

The legs are not too short. In fact, it is the first time that legs are not too long. Almost every 3d figure and 3d character is stylized.
No wonder, your view on characters is wrong. If you want real life 3d figures, you'll need to go for unedited 3d scans.

MelissaGT

morrisonmp said:

von Hobo said:

morrisonmp said:

Wonderland said:

morrisonmp said:

I have been experimenting with Genesis 9 characters (Michael, Minerva, Victoria, and a couple others) and while the textures are good and the facial improvements are excellent... I still hate the bodies. Gen9 is weirdly doughy and roundy and the proportions just "feel" wrong. I have not been able to make a G9 character yet (and I bought several of the morph sets as well) that I actually like having in a scene. And to me, YMMV, they don't fit well in scenes with G8/G8.1 models because the entire approach to making them just feels so very different.

I'd love to see some new sculpts using the G9 innovations that are not so odd-bodied.

Sorry for the rant... but the G9s just feel super weird to me.
 

I agree. G9/V9 is a bit too pudgy and short for my taste and the arms seem too long and legs too short. Some characters seem to have the head too small for the body.  I know I can change all that but if I want to use stock poses it's extra work to make them work with proportions I use. I already make most G8 characters taller with longer legs and G9 needs even a bigger stretch. The only advantage I see now are the eyes and quick load time because I have very few G9 characters. It is kind of fun creating more characters from scratch though with G9 because I often get lazy mixing several G8 characters together rather than work on individual morphs. G9 will take longer to morph/pose but I'll probably be more creative doing it. 

 

That's something I hadn't quite been able to put my finger on yet... The legs. I can't unsee it now. The legs are too short. I was just looking at the new muscle morphs pack images (on the store today) and I was like... yep, the legs feel wrong. 

DAZ says on their Genesis 9 promo page that the proportions for G9 are "realistic human measurements". 

• "Genesis 9 figure measurements have been meticulously crafted to match real-world averages."

I have noticed the same thing, but is it possible that we are so used to G8 (and older generation) proportions, that when we see more accurate, real-world proportions on G9 we tend to think it looks unnatural? Could it be that G9 is indeed more accurate than older generations and we just need to adjust our expectations from what we have been used to seeing?

In my opinion, the approach DAZ is taking to real-world averages is a good one. The figures that the PA's produce can then diverge from this to create a model with longer legs, etc. if that is what appeals to a purchaser.

It's kind of like Instagram is not really what most people look like in everyday life, but that's what people are drawn to on Instagram (airbrushed models). 

 

I find them oddly doughy and off-putting with all the attention on creating wonderful faces and the bodies looking like odd. 

Given that Daz's direction with G9 is to present us with a more realistically proportioned base kit, this statement can be taken to mean that poeple in the real world are are also seen to be oddly doughy and off-putting as well. Le'sigh.  

I've embraced G9 and am enjoying working with it. As others have already said, you can easily adjust the length of the legs or the arms or the size of the head. 

And as an afterthought...I've always thought the legs on G8 were ridiculously too long out of the box...probably because the majority of characters were borrowed from V8...who was obviously an Amazon. 

PerttiA

MelissaGT said:

And as an afterthought...I've always thought the legs on G8 were ridiculously too long out of the box...probably because the majority of characters were borrowed from V8...who was obviously an Amazon. 

DAZ releasing females that are not 6 feet tall supermodel types, is something I have waited for 20+ years 

jd641

Masterstroke said:

The legs are too short. I was just looking at the new muscle morphs pack images (on the store today) and I was like... yep, the legs feel wrong. 

The legs are not too short. In fact, it is the first time that legs are not too long. Almost every 3d figure and 3d character is stylized.
No wonder, your view on characters is wrong. If you want real life 3d figures, you'll need to go for unedited 3d scans.

I agree on this, g9's proportions are much closer to the average real persons which I appreciate because I had to shorten/adjust every g8 figure I owned because they were too lanky and tall. Most of the g9 stuff seems to be too expensive for my wallet but I prefer the g9 body proportions over most g8 offerings, but the content I look for reflects more to true to life stuff and not an idealized or stylized body for 3d content.

nonesuch00

The 3D modeler of Genesis 9 modeled what they saw.

People in far northern and far southern climes evolved to have shorter limbs and longer torsos as a defense response against exposure to the cold and eons of near starvation in those nutrient sparse far northern/far southern climes. If you are used to seeing longer longs and arms as normal among those groups now it's because you are used to seeing Madison Avenue & Hollywood outliers chosen for longer legs and longer arms then is historically typical because of improved nutrition. The torso doesn't enlongate nearly so much with improved nutrition. That, the elevator shoes, and deceiving camera angles chosen.

FSMCDesigns

Thank goodness there are morphs so I don't have to live with everyones idea of what a 'normal' human female is supposaed to look like. I lengthen the legs also since I like that look and there are people in the world with longer legs

Diomede

On seeing proportions. If you watch a variety of sports at the elite level, and watch often, then you will see many examples of people with proportions that deviate from what artists are trained to think is correct.  People with outlier proportions are more likely to be seen by sports fans because body type affects performance for specific tasks.  Forearm length relative to the arm and torso affects throwing a baseball.  Yes, forearm length affects the whip effect of the throwing motion.  If you watch a lot of baseball, you are more likely to see some pitchers who do not conform to DiVinci's famous person in a circle.  More likely does not mean all.  Tall people with the extra height in the torso instead of the limbs are more likely to be swimmers.  Yes, a long torso affects cutting through water.  More likely does not mean all.  Tall people with the extra height in the limbs instead of the torso are more likely to be runners.  Yes, leg length affects stride.   More likely does not mean all.  Tiny but strong women are more likely to be gymnasts.  More likely does not mean all.

https://www.ted.com/talks/david_epstein_are_athletes_really_getting_faster_better_stronger?language=en

Consider these two champion level athletes.  One is a swimmer and the other is a runner.  They have the same length inseam for their pants.  Their legs are approximately the same length.  But relative to that leg length, this swimmer's torso is so much longer that this swimmer is half a foot taller.

 

evacyn

I'm blown away by how brilliant Victoria 9 is but it just ends up making most of the other G9 characters underwhelming. It's a bit of a two edged sword - they've managed to hook me with V9 but set a new bar for my expectations which ultimately means I spend less since I literally only have V9's textures to use with them (which gets repetitive quick) lol.

richardandtracy

All this talk of 'average proportions' may be well & good, but I do wonder 'Average for where?'. Most certainly they are not average for where I am. The proportions really don't reflect my lived experience at all. I'm 6'1". My eldest daughter is taller [and probably heavier] than I am. My wife is 5'11" and her inside leg length is 39" while mine is only 35" - my wife strays into leggy supermodel proportions. The real shortie in the family is my younger daughter at a mere 5'8.5".

V9 is more the size of my grandmother rather than anyone of the current generation, and my grandmother grew up dirt poor at the end of the 1800's in a Cornish mining village where money & food [especially] was scarce which stunted her growth badly. The proportions of many G8 characters are more like those I see every day at home and feel used to, regardless of whether they're average or not.

Regards,

Richard

MimicMolly

@richardandtracy I would guess the average is from the US southwest. I technically live around there and Base G9's face almost looks like mine. (My user pic, as of this comment, was made with G8.1F.) G9 is still taller than me.

I only really used scaling on G8, if I was doing renders of multiple figures 9n the same scene. Otherwise , I just used them as if, even is they were "too tall." But I prefer G9's proportions and even adjusted some shapes to match before trying to convert them to G9.

MelissaGT

MimicMolly said:

@richardandtracy I would guess the average is from the US southwest. I technically live around there and Base G9's face almost looks like mine. (My user pic, as of this comment, was made with G8.1F.) G9 is still taller than me.

I only really used scaling on G8, if I was doing renders of multiple figures 9n the same scene. Otherwise , I just used them as if, even is they were "too tall." But I prefer G9's proportions and even adjusted some shapes to match before trying to convert them to G9.

I'm 5'5'" which is a completely average height for women in the Northeast US. I don't stand out as being tall or short when I stand in a crowd. My husband is 5'10"...which again is a completely average height for men in the Northeast US. I am of 100% Northwest European blood, pretty much half British and half Swedish (3rd generation in the US) and my husband is half Northern Italian and half Sicilian (3rd generation in the US). I have stubby legs (to the point where I have to buy "short" length pants) and a long torso. My husband has longer legs and a shorter torso.  

GhostofMacbeth

Good thing that Genesis 9 alllows for all of these proportions

vonHobo

This is the most responses to any thread I started. Thank you everyone!

jd641

MelissaGT said:

MimicMolly said:

@richardandtracy I would guess the average is from the US southwest. I technically live around there and Base G9's face almost looks like mine. (My user pic, as of this comment, was made with G8.1F.) G9 is still taller than me.

I only really used scaling on G8, if I was doing renders of multiple figures 9n the same scene. Otherwise , I just used them as if, even is they were "too tall." But I prefer G9's proportions and even adjusted some shapes to match before trying to convert them to G9.

I'm 5'5'" which is a completely average height for women in the Northeast US. I don't stand out as being tall or short when I stand in a crowd. My husband is 5'10"...which again is a completely average height for men in the Northeast US. I am of 100% Northwest European blood, pretty much half British and half Swedish (3rd generation in the US) and my husband is half Northern Italian and half Sicilian (3rd generation in the US). I have stubby legs (to the point where I have to buy "short" length pants) and a long torso. My husband has longer legs and a shorter torso. 

I've got short stubby legs too! If I had an average leg length I'd be about 3" taller cause my feet can barely touch the floor with most chairs but my torso isn't short. When I sit down I'm at eye height with everyone else, it's just that when I stand up I don't get much taller. lol

Speaking of averages, where I live in NJ we have a very big hispanic population in the town over. There's plenty of shorter men and the average woman's height is a lot lower, it's not unusal to see women well under 5ft walking around.

MelissaGT

jd641 said:

MelissaGT said:

MimicMolly said:

@richardandtracy I would guess the average is from the US southwest. I technically live around there and Base G9's face almost looks like mine. (My user pic, as of this comment, was made with G8.1F.) G9 is still taller than me.

I only really used scaling on G8, if I was doing renders of multiple figures 9n the same scene. Otherwise , I just used them as if, even is they were "too tall." But I prefer G9's proportions and even adjusted some shapes to match before trying to convert them to G9.

I'm 5'5'" which is a completely average height for women in the Northeast US. I don't stand out as being tall or short when I stand in a crowd. My husband is 5'10"...which again is a completely average height for men in the Northeast US. I am of 100% Northwest European blood, pretty much half British and half Swedish (3rd generation in the US) and my husband is half Northern Italian and half Sicilian (3rd generation in the US). I have stubby legs (to the point where I have to buy "short" length pants) and a long torso. My husband has longer legs and a shorter torso. 

I've got short stubby legs too! If I had an average leg length I'd be about 3" taller cause my feet can barely touch the floor with most chairs but my torso isn't short. When I sit down I'm at eye height with everyone else, it's just that when I stand up I don't get much taller. lol

Speaking of averages, where I live in NJ we have a very big hispanic population in the town over. There's plenty of shorter men and the average woman's height is a lot lower, it's not unusal to see women well under 5ft walking around.

Oh the joys of trying to find a pair of jeans that don't drag on the floor. I love that the general assumption in womens' clothing is that all women are either 6' tall or wear 5" heels. :/ 

butterflyfish

MelissaGT said:

Oh the joys of trying to find a pair of jeans that don't drag on the floor. I love that the general assumption in womens' clothing is that all women are either 6' tall or wear 5" heels. :/ 

Well I don't know where you're shopping, but I'd like to shop there. I can never find any kind of pants that don't look like floods. And I'm neither 6' tall (5'9"), nor do I wear heels.

Philippi_Child

I work out with a fellow that's only 5'6" tall with a small build. He's always cracking about buying his clothing in the boy's department at the mall.

FSMCDesigns

Average height around the world https://www.worlddata.info/average-bodyheight.php#

It's funny, I am in the US/TX and I am 6'1 and always wished I was taller. My GF is 5'8 and all her female friends are about the same height

plasma_ring

Philippi_Child said:

I work out with a fellow that's only 5'6" tall with a small build. He's always cracking about buying his clothing in the boy's department at the mall.

I'm 5'7" and in Seattle I'm Schrödinger's Short Guy. Either I stand up straight and I'm the tallest person in a block-wide radius, or there'll be like one person who is 6'5" looking down at all of us like a hound dog trying to navigate a sea of baby chicks.

CHWT

I am 5'6". I am definitely below the average, which is approximately 5'8" for men in where I live. Now that G9 are generally shorter, I can see a whole market for rescaling existing props to accommodate the new shorties in the block, or the poor folks will have their feet dangling off the ground when they sit on any sofa or chair! *business opportunities*

PerttiA

CHWT said:

I am 5'6". I am definitely below the average, which is approximately 5'8" for men in where I live. Now that G9 are generally shorter, I can see a whole market for rescaling existing props to accommodate the new shorties in the block, or the poor folks will have their feet dangling off the ground when they sit on any sofa or chair! *business opportunities*

Making stuff scaled to character dimensions is something invented in Poser... In DS, one should always use the real world scale and there would never be need to scale them again

One DS unit is 1cm