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Comments
I know what you mean about autofit breaking bones, when you autofit the V5 Elite Ponytail to G2F the ponytail gets broken. You can avoid it if you merely parent the hair, but, should you have to!? It strikes me that Daz really need to take a long hard look at autofit and endeavour to ensure it works as it should on anything.
CHEERS!
I do agree with that , more or less. I expect something made for a figure to work with that figure. Some adjustments I would expect -- for example, I wouldn't be surprised to have to tinker with Basic Wear a little -- and I do mean a little -- to get it to look right on Bethany, because she came out after Basic Wear, so there's no way for it to account for her other than adjustments.
As far as autofit goes, it's fairly limited, whether by intent or design or if it's just that something that's meant to be quick and easy can't take everything into account, I don't know. However: If you use Transfer Utility, instead of Autofit, you can have it merge hierarchies (under the Weight Maps option if you expand out the bottom part of the transfer utility screen), which means that for most things (but not all), it will retain not only the bones, but any function within those bones. (I will note that hair is one of the things I've found where having it retaiin function attached to bones was most problematic in transferring Mil4 to Genesis and Genesis 2.)
Note that while that method works most of the time transferring from M4/V4 to Genesis or Genesis 2, it did not work transferring to G3F. I dont know to what extent that issue might be fixed by the new clones, as I haven't had the chance to test yet. I know part of the issue with Transfer Utility and G3F before was that it would retain function, but because the single bone didn't exist, function attached to that bone might get weirdly and randomly assigned to the G3F bend bone or the twist bone.
lol. So with my rebuttal against just doing test renders of stuff that clearly will have issues, especially on figures that I have already tried everything else on, lol. Here is a quick test of B7 Silver Sophia, and the Zodiac Sorceress Outfit (Both included in the Bethany 7 Pro Bundle), before that update.
To my surprise, the thing fit right out of the smart tab, tho posing the 'overcoat' was a tad bit more work for the funny of the only thing I could think of this outfit working with, lol.
So, why dose this outfit fit her, when nothing else works with all the other non-daz figures I have, for two reasons, and it still doesn't completely fit. On her right chest, a bit of the cloth appears to be digging into her skin. That and the outfit is no where near the other problematic area on the sides of the hip. The 'Bouncy' outfit still has problems, and that has Mesh Smoothing on by default.
So, now that I know beyond any doubt, that Auto follow (Auto generated morphs) has a major flaw on G3F, that shows up on the same locations almost every single time (except when there is a JCM replacing the Auto follow). Let me see what that Update dose, if anything at all.
Hopefully it'll do something or it will have been a waste of time. If it doesn't do what you want then a bug report may need sending. I'm not doing anything with G3 till I get some figures, and I don't know when that will be yet.
CHEERS!
Well Rogerbee, Because of the past three Generation 7 releases, that have all continued to have this Auto-follow issue with the non-daz figures included in the Pro Bundles, I have become less then eager to continue testing the same stuff over and over again just to keep getting the same exact results.
The only figures that do not have problems are based purely on the “Genesis Body Morphs Dials” and with limited Daz-original attributes for some. All the figures that have custom body shapes that are NOT based purely on Daz-original dials, ALL have Auto-follow issues.
It is indeed so bad, that I no longer have any desire to get any more Pro Packs, or any more G3F figures for that matter. That includes the new “Karen 7”, as I simply see it as a waste of limited funds to keep buying faulty products. This has dragged on for over a month, I do not see that as 'harsh' or exaggerating the situation at this point.
So, in a nutshell, I simply stopped dropping what I was in the middle of working on, just to do another line-up. Still tho, I don't have a line up of ALL the non-daz figures that I have, so there is at least a little bit of motivation still to give that update a try, even tho 'vwrangler' pointed out that the update did not have anything directly to do with the Auto-follow mechanism of custom shaped non-daz figures. I simply am excluding Skyler, as 3D Universe made a complete replacement for Auto-follow for that one figure using some kind of 3D black-magic, lol.
So, I will see if the computer can handle twelve G3F non-daz figures, lol. All with Displacement/Normal/Bump off, to eliminate that as a possible culprit. I will do the Daz-originals in a separate lineup, for lack of Ram and test-chamber room.
(EDIT) Oh, a tickit has been submitted by the way.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/869740/#Comment_869740
It will be interesting to see what emerges. It could be that a bug report and a major overhaul could be what is needed. I still think that Daz's raison d'etre for G3 was "We've got shiny new iRay, but, we don't have a shiny new figure where we can show it off. Quick, what can we do!?" They shoved it out the door way before it was ready, and now it's like they're, somewhat wrongheadedly, rushing out new iterations without paying attention to getting the base 100% right. They could have spent till next year making sure they'd got the bases right and then released the other iterations later on. The PA's could then have continued doing G2 stuff till it was ready.
They really need to concentrate on fixing what they've got before bringing anything else out, but we know they're not going to do that. They seem to think they can wow us with enough shiny stuff that we'll forget the murk under the surface. Not now we won't!
CHEERS!
Agreed, rushed out the door, just like so many other things. And I am not in the least bit happy with the opinion of Tech, that it is the responsibility of cloth makers to provide adjustments to fudge a fix for the underlining issue.
The sight in the viewfield is not exactly TOS compliant, and that is with cloths on them already. I'll fix that, and update this post in a few seconds.
(EDIT)
A speech from Eugene Francis Kranz, comes to mind. And I think I'm about to say it.
... Daz3D. Dammit, stop!
"Spaceflight will never tolerate carelessness, incapacity, and neglect. Somewhere, somehow, we screwed up. It could have been in design, build, or test. Whatever it was, we should have caught it. We were too gung ho about the schedule and we locked out all of the problems we saw each day in our work. Every element of the program was in trouble and so were we. The simulators were not working, Mission Control was behind in virtually every area, and the flight and test procedures changed daily. Nothing we did had any shelf life. Not one of us stood up and said, 'Dammit, stop!' I don't know what Thompson's committee will find as the cause, but I know what I find. We are the cause! We were not ready! We did not do our job. We were rolling the dice, hoping that things would come together by launch day, when in our hearts we knew it would take a miracle. We were pushing the schedule and betting that the Cape would slip before we did.
From this day forward, Flight Control will be known by two words: 'Tough' and 'Competent.' Tough means we are forever accountable for what we do or what we fail to do. We will never again compromise our responsibilities. Every time we walk into Mission Control we will know what we stand for. Competent means we will never take anything for granted. We will never be found short in our knowledge and in our skills. Mission Control will be perfect. When you leave this meeting today you will go to your office and the first thing you will do there is to write 'Tough and Competent' on your blackboards. It will never be erased. Each day when you enter the room these words will remind you of the price paid by Grissom, White, and Chaffee. These words are the price of admission to the ranks of Mission Control."
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less then a third of what I have spent money on the last two months at Daz3D, actually works! the rest of it all, is **** broken.
The ones labeled 'Daz3D Body Shape' are done exclusively with the 'Genesis 3 Female Body Morphs' with no custom z-brushed shaping at all on the body. EJ Tatijana dose also have some V7 body shape dialed in as well. All stuff that cloths makers are 'essential' required to make custom JCMs for.
There is some doubt regarding DES Fiora, as there dose appear to be a bit of body size change, tho the shape in the problematic areas appears to be just that of plane old unaltered G3F. It's almost as if there was some deliberate avoiding touching the problematic areas when z-brushing the shape.
ALL of the other 'Custom' body shapes ALL have issues with the auto generated morphs (auto follow). Some with poke threw, others with unrealistic gaps between the body and the outfits (some a combination of both).
They are not broken, their mesh simply doesn't have quite the same density as the figure's so the surface planes intersect on curvy body shapes. Just use a Push modifier with an offset value of .05 to fix it.
A what!? Is that like some kind of throw back to generation 3 or something before 'Millennium' figures?
BTW, not all of the outfits I'm having difficulties with, are that far off from the mesh density of G3F. And everything in the former post, is G3F outfits on G3F figures. So this is strictly down to Auto generated Morphs (auto follow).
To add insult to all this, some of these outfits were included in 'Pro Bundles' and don't even fit the non-daz figures included in the Pro Bundle it came from. Like the 'Monokini' vs FWSA Dayna from the Eva7 Pro Bundle (post above). Or the 'Post apocalyptic outfit' vs the non-daz figures included in the V7 Pro Bundle. That's just **** when stuff bundled together doesn't work.
I'm trying to think of a single G2F outfit, that was included in a G2F Pro Bundle, that had the same auto-follow problems that I'm having with G3F stuff. I am honestly drawing a complete blank.
(EDIT)
argh, Mesh Smoothing is on with all of this stuff. it is ought right ignoring where the body is, and pushing the cloth off some where else. Mesh Smoothing only works, when the Base Shape Morphs are working properly, and they are NOT working properly on G3F.
how are we gonna get to the Moon if we can't talk between two or three buildings (Gus Grissom), lol.
Jestmart is right, there are adjustments that can be made and the majority of what I've seen in your renders is relatively minor and can be fixed with push modifiers and smoothing modifiers. I know things should fit right out of the box, but, there are things that do require a little extra work. Try stuff and don't give up till you find something that works. When you do, save it as a wearables preset and it will always be correct after that.
CHEERS!
Yea, your right. Keep trying stuff, eventually, after I've spent a tone of money on daz3d stuff, I should in theory, some day, find something for G3F, that works as 'Skirt protection', lol.
This came with Bethany 7 Pro bundle, and it dose appear to fit Sophia and FWSA Camile without poke threw or unnatural gaps. It's still not exactly perfect on the others with odd gaping holes on the edges. And apparently Summer is so far off from the "Daz allowed shaping", that nothing fits her without poke threw (except perhaps a burlap bag, lol).
Oh, there is only a single zone for the entire thing, so that kind of limits the customizability with surface shaders.
Then again, there is a single spec of poke threw on FWSA Camile's back. Nothing any where near as bad as all the other outfits, lol.
Some of the figures have odd wrinkles on there backs around the shoulder blades???
Experiment with push and smoothing modifiers and see what you get.
CHEERS!
+1
1,, I have fussed with mesh smoothing. It dose, NOTHING. That is because it is not being told where the body polygons actually are, because Auto-follow is broken. It doesn't matter if I set it to 1 iteration or a two hundred (yes, I have tried that). Collision Iterations is equally useless (0 threw 100). Not even maxing out the mesh resolution has any effect (3 on some things, others items do go much higher). Now setting the "Lock distance" to something absurd, like ten instead of 0.001 has the affect of getting rid of the poke threw and the rest of the mesh is a few inches out in mid air. The bottom line, is the shape of the figure is not being transferred to the clothing properly, resulting in the cloths trying to conform to the wrong shape.
2. Whatever a "Push modifier" is, obviously I have never fussed with it before, nor needed to with G2F/M as Auto follow worked on that generation. if it wasn't quite clear before in my former post (A what!?). let me put it another way.
What is a "Push Modifier"? Is that like a Poser equivalent of a Daz Studio D-form?
The Push modifier can be found under Edit / Geometry just like the Smoothing modifier and Sub-d. Smoothing is collision detection and I suspect it works vertex to face and not face to face and that is why it doesn't always work well when the mesh density and edge placement varies to much from the figure. I also suspect smoothing is calculated from the original mesh so cranking up Sub-d doesn't help either.
I will try that 'push thing' out. if it relies on the 'auto generated morphs' then it will not be much more help then mesh smoothing.
I could almost understand the mesh density thing, except on the sides of the hip on some figures, the clothing mesh is almost a full inch out in mid air at the top, and almost just as far inside the figure near the bottom. An area covering many polygons on both the cloths and the figure. It's not just a matter of tiny polygon points (joints) sticking threw the center of individual clothing n-gons.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/877143/#Comment_877143
Collision does not depend on AutoFollow - it works directly on the mesh.
Well, lol. That just makes this just that much worse then, lol. I was about to say that 'Mesh smoothing' was on in all the test renders above. Most of the outfits already have it on, and I went out of my way to turn it on with the 'G3F Basic wear'. I'll need to look again, and make some notes of what outfits have Mesh Smoothing 'on' by default, and redo the rest of them that don't.
I think I can rule out a lack of polygons with Hongyu's V7 Bikini (wow, that is allot of them), however, it doesn't have mesh smoothing at all from the smart tab, lol. I'll need to redo that one.
The Post apocalyptic one that's included in the V7 Pro Pack, I know for a fact, mesh smoothing did nothing at all with that.
(EDIT)
Ah, scratch that thought. Mesh Smoothing dose nothing for the Hongyu's V7 Bikini. Same poke threw, as without it.
There is a particular UT04 voice sound effect I expect to hear when I slam dials to there max, lol.
Push modifiers have nothing to do with Autofollow. It behaves more like Collision as defined by Richard in his post.
A Push Modifier will help with the outfits where the issue is that it's intersecting the body mesh, even with smoothing on. The first thing you'll need to do is to (a) NAME your push modifier something distinctive, so you can tell what it's supposed to be doing (otherwise they just get numbered if you use more than one), and then you'll need to turn down the strength of the modifier a lot. By default, it loads at something like 0.1 (1cm, I think), which is WAY too strong for clothing worn next to the body.
That said, a push modifier will do nothing to help for those outfits you mention that seem to hang off the model; in fact, it will make that issue worse.
Zarcon, have you been updating your ticket with the tests you've been running, and the images you post here, and/or directing DAZ to this forum thread in your ticket? It might provide them with helpful information in tracking the issue.
To be honest, no. I gave them the first lineups showing the same outfits not fitting a bunch of figures.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/868917/#Comment_868917
And they kind of only wanted to focus on a single figure and a single outfit, then clamed it was all good because there was an adjustment (expand all) that made the poke threw go away. Completely oblivious to the other areas hanging out in mid air. So no, I'm not happy with Tech sweeping the root issue under the carpet, and pretending there is no problem. The attached was pretty much the end of the discussion. No I never ticked it as 'solved', as there is obviously a bigger problem.
So a push modifier is nothing more than another 'expand all' adjustment, Nice, lol. I'll still give it a try, because I've never fussed with it before, never needed to.
Do an update to your ticket showing them that it's more comprehensive than just one figure, and that not all outfits have adjustments to make the issue go away. I've found of late that Support seems to require ... persistence. (You have NO idea how much editing that sentence just got.) Mind, there is a level where being persistent doesn't seem to do anything more than make them say, "Huh. There is a problem. Imagine that," but at least you can get them that far. They won't actually DO anything about it at that point, but having them admit on the record that there's an issue may be of use later on.
I can understand what it is like to be 'overwhelmed' by information, and at the same time the need to have direct identification of a faulty part of a complex system. I thought I had something, if only proof of a patron, and after Richard Haseltine's point, I'm back to having no clue what is going on.
1. Nothing close fitting, properly adjusts to the shape of non-daz figure shapes (it only works for figures based exclusively on Daz Originals and Genesis 3 Female Body Morphs, and nothing else).
2. The auto generated morphs (FBM) don't match the shape of the figure at all. even with everything dialed out the FBM is just completely wrong on all the non-daz figures.
3. Mesh Smoothing just makes matters worse, pulling the cloth off in odd directions. Tho not so odd after looking at one test. Cloths fitted to Summer and Adaline, tho they fit the shape of V7 perfectly (the base that the z-brushed shape is added to for the figures).
---
Some newer outfits appear to fit without poke threw, tho they appear to have resorted to having the mesh a mile away from the figure in the problematic areas. Like this one that also appears to have other odd behavior (proper draping under the breasts on most, yet clingy on others, lol). I haven't had a chance to look to see what the outfit has for adjustments. The straps are no where near the sides of the hips, and there is a good solid inch or so gap around the groin and breasts on some figures (same with the G3F monokini and Zodiac sorceress thing).
Pardon,
where are they?
That G3F I got installed by DIM is very poor related to additional morphs / dials.
Good Q. I thought I had a screen-cap of that. Unfortunately, the posts back there were from the 'old' forum, and The last few times I tried to update older posts, I didn't have permission. Here is a screen-cap of where they are.
I have also 'purchased' a few other add-on expression packs, so the list of what dials I have now is more extensive then what comes with G3F.
I do find the 'Parameters' tab difficult at times, staying on an item after I've selected something different in the scene tab, lol.
The base expressions are a wee bit cartoony, and she's had a ton of botox!
CHEERS!
Home alone!
CHEERS!
yep, after shave and G3F auto-follow will do that, lol
Do the expressions you buy add the wrinkles?
CHEERS!
Hm,
and what's about creating individual characters (these hundreds of face- / body shapes) as come with G1 / G2 ??
Yeah I wonder whats up with the wrinkles. I have seen some nice wrinkles in recent games but I think those were created by some kind of dynamic textures rather than geometry.