January Contest Thread “Compostion” (WIP Thread)

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Comments

  • aaron575aaron575 Posts: 146
    edited December 1969

    aaron575 said:
    I have tried to use just lighting in the composition of this. Would love some feedback.

    This is such a nice image. The only suggestion is either changing the camera angle, the figure's position or scale to break some tangents.

    And I agree with some grunge as Scott suggests.

    Thank you for the tips Chris.

    I have made lots of changes, please let me know what you think.

    stealth-2-1.jpg
    700 x 990 - 562K
  • Kismet2012Kismet2012 Posts: 4,140
    edited December 1969

    aaron575 said:
    aaron575 said:
    I have tried to use just lighting in the composition of this. Would love some feedback.

    This is such a nice image. The only suggestion is either changing the camera angle, the figure's position or scale to break some tangents.

    And I agree with some grunge as Scott suggests.

    Thank you for the tips Chris.

    I have made lots of changes, please let me know what you think.

    I really liked your image before aaron575 ( especially the camera angle ) but you have taken the suggestions and really ran with them.

    My first thought when I saw this was: Wow

  • Kismet2012Kismet2012 Posts: 4,140
    edited December 1969

    I want to thank Cris, Dollygirl and Scott for your great suggestions and guidance to everyone in this month's contest. You have helped all of us take OK images and dramatically improve them.

    You have not only made suggestions but shown us what you are referring to in our images. From someone who knows something is wrong with her image(s) but cannot figure out exactly what it is, this has been a wonderful, educational and satisfying experience.

    I am looking forward to seeing the end results of everyone's images. Hard to believe there is only a week left in this contest. :bug:

  • yhzmurphyyhzmurphy Posts: 434
    edited December 1969

    I want to thank Cris, Dollygirl and Scott for your great suggestions and guidance to everyone in this month's contest. You have helped all of us take OK images and dramatically improve them.

    You have not only made suggestions but shown us what you are referring to in our images. From someone who knows something is wrong with her image(s) but cannot figure out exactly what it is, this has been a wonderful, educational and satisfying experience.

    I am looking forward to seeing the end results of everyone's images. Hard to believe there is only a week left in this contest. :bug:

    Kismet couldn't be more right. This has been fantastic, and the real 'prize' for this contest is the great guidance on the WIP thread.

  • Mattkire75Mattkire75 Posts: 77
    edited December 1969

    smurph9 said:
    I want to thank Cris, Dollygirl and Scott for your great suggestions and guidance to everyone in this month's contest. You have helped all of us take OK images and dramatically improve them.

    You have not only made suggestions but shown us what you are referring to in our images. From someone who knows something is wrong with her image(s) but cannot figure out exactly what it is, this has been a wonderful, educational and satisfying experience.

    I am looking forward to seeing the end results of everyone's images. Hard to believe there is only a week left in this contest. :bug:

    Kismet couldn't be more right. This has been fantastic, and the real 'prize' for this contest is the great guidance on the WIP thread.

    I agree. It's helped me, moving forward as well! :D

  • Scott LivingstonScott Livingston Posts: 4,310
    edited December 1969

    aaron575 said:
    aaron575 said:
    I have tried to use just lighting in the composition of this. Would love some feedback.

    This is such a nice image. The only suggestion is either changing the camera angle, the figure's position or scale to break some tangents.

    And I agree with some grunge as Scott suggests.

    Thank you for the tips Chris.

    I have made lots of changes, please let me know what you think.
    Yeah, this is great improvement. But be careful not to overdo it with the leaves. This is just my personal feeling, but the quantity you're using is a little distracting (and perhaps not realistic; this is an urban setting, with no visible trees). Maybe see how it looks with about half as many.

  • GarrettDRGarrettDR Posts: 227
    edited December 1969

    Hello,
    I have the following three questions:
    1) what size does the image need to be for submission?
    2) I have a pack of cigarettes recognized as Marlboro, and a bottle of hennessy where you can read the label. Is this alright since it is not the main subject of the image?
    3) Can I post my image to my library once it has been submitted? This will be the first ever contest and image post of mine ever!

    Thanks for your Time!

    Garrett

  • Scott LivingstonScott Livingston Posts: 4,310
    edited December 1969

    Scavenger said:
    Thanks Scott...yeah, yanked down the specular on the rug down to 10% and it killed the sparkle, which will save me photoshoping it later.
    ---


    Dolly, so you're thinking a framing like this works better with the sweet spots more accounted for?

    (I tend to not get some formal, and just go with what feels right in layouts, with how I visualize usually falling into golden rules/golden rectangle forms naturally more or less, but as it's the specific theme of this contest, I'm trying to play stricter with myself.).


    To be honest, I liked the framing/composition better in the previous version.

    Looking at the image in Dollygirl's post with the "sweet spots" marked, maybe try getting the male character's mouth to the lower left spot, and the dancer's face in the upper right spot? Try that, and maybe a few other possibilities, and see which looks best to you.

    As far as the lighting is concerned...it's your image and you'll have to decide what fits your vision and gives the result you want. I might have gone in the opposite direction and made the backlighting even stronger to try to create a silhouette effect on the dancer and rim lighting on the singer (see links for examples of what I'm thinking of).

  • Scott LivingstonScott Livingston Posts: 4,310
    edited December 1969

    Scavenger said:
    Thanks Scott...yeah, yanked down the specular on the rug down to 10% and it killed the sparkle, which will save me photoshoping it later.
    ---


    Dolly, so you're thinking a framing like this works better with the sweet spots more accounted for?

    (I tend to not get some formal, and just go with what feels right in layouts, with how I visualize usually falling into golden rules/golden rectangle forms naturally more or less, but as it's the specific theme of this contest, I'm trying to play stricter with myself.).


    To be honest, I liked the framing/composition better in the previous version.

    Looking at the image in Dollygirl's post with the "sweet spots" marked, maybe try getting the male character's mouth to the lower left spot, and the dancer's face in the upper right spot? Try that, and maybe a few other possibilities, and see which looks best to you.

    As far as the lighting is concerned...it's your image and you'll have to decide what fits your vision and gives the result you want. I might have gone in the opposite direction and made the backlighting even stronger to try to create a silhouette effect on the dancer and rim lighting on the singer (see links for examples of what I'm thinking of). But I think the way you have it works, too.

    Glad you've figured out what's going on with the carpet. :)

  • Scott LivingstonScott Livingston Posts: 4,310
    edited December 1969

    GarrettDR said:
    Hello,
    I have the following three questions:
    1) what size does the image need to be for submission?
    2) I have a pack of cigarettes recognized as Marlboro, and a bottle of hennessy where you can read the label. Is this alright since it is not the main subject of the image?
    3) Can I post my image to my library once it has been submitted? This will be the first ever contest and image post of mine ever!

    Thanks for your Time!

    Garrett


    1. There are no size limits. Make sure it's big enough for the judges to analyze, and small enough that the forum software doesn't reject it (I think that means up to 2000x2000 pixels, if I recall correctly).
    2. Make sure all the items in your scene are licensed for commercial use, since a contest with prizes is considered a commercial use. If there are copyrighted logos, it may be the case that those things are licensed for personal use only.
    3. Yes, as long as you don't post anywhere else (aside from this WIP thread) until after you've posted it to the contest entry thread.

    The official rules are here, please read them carefully: http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/3440/

    Good luck! :)

  • GarrettDRGarrettDR Posts: 227
    edited December 1969

    Thanks for the quick response. The word 'Marlboro' Is not visible at all, just the iconic red and white box. The Hennessy label I took from the internet. All objects in my scene I created myself.

    I will go and create a Cognac label myself to be on the safe side.

    I take it last day for entries is the 31st?

    Thanks!

  • DollyGirlDollyGirl Posts: 2,510
    edited December 1969

    Scavenger said:
    Thanks Scott...yeah, yanked down the specular on the rug down to 10% and it killed the sparkle, which will save me photoshoping it later.
    ---


    Dolly, so you're thinking a framing like this works better with the sweet spots more accounted for?

    (I tend to not get some formal, and just go with what feels right in layouts, with how I visualize usually falling into golden rules/golden rectangle forms naturally more or less, but as it's the specific theme of this contest, I'm trying to play stricter with myself.).

    I am so glad you are willing to go with the flow. It can be hard when you are a natural to play along. I think though that by just humoring the teachers it allows the artist to see more options and a bigger base of experience.

    Yes, I now know what is important in the image. I like that you chose to crop the portrait of the singer at about the mid abdomen. It seems a bit more natural. I did some digging and I found this great graphic that shows how best to crop an image and maintain the comfort of your viewer. You can see it here.

    Cris has mentioned several times that we must be aware of the creation of tangents, while we are developing our compositions. She showed us some in Kismet's image and again in aaron575's image. Last night I was wondering just how Cris is seeing these points and I found a really good explanation of what tangents are in art. You can read about tangents here. Based upon this new found information and the way you have set up your scene there are tangents created in the top of the scene. So you did good with helping us know what the focus of the image is to be but in the process you stumbled across those dratted tangents. :down:

    I think what Scott has suggested would be really cool ideas too. With both his and my ideas we are trying to provide you with suggestions to bring out what it is you want focused on, your man. I hope that we have not discouraged you and that you continue to explore these ideas to see what works with the vision that is in your head.

  • DollyGirlDollyGirl Posts: 2,510
    edited December 1969

    aaron575 said:
    aaron575 said:
    I have tried to use just lighting in the composition of this. Would love some feedback.

    This is such a nice image. The only suggestion is either changing the camera angle, the figure's position or scale to break some tangents.

    And I agree with some grunge as Scott suggests.

    Thank you for the tips Chris.

    I have made lots of changes, please let me know what you think.

    I like the back lighting of this image aaron575 but I do so like your first image as well. Putting them side by side what I like about the original is the size of the man to the remaining size of the picture. I also like his stance in the original. He looks proud and more confident. Funny how moving the camera changes the story so much. I agree with Scott about the leaves. I think a sprinkle on the ground would be better. We all know how hard it is walk quietly through leaves. I think the movement comes from your birds. If you decide to do more moving the camera just remember about those tangents.

    Thanks for going along with us. Looking forward to seeing what you decide to do.

  • DollyGirlDollyGirl Posts: 2,510
    edited December 1969

    poetman75 said:
    smurph9 said:
    I want to thank Cris, Dollygirl and Scott for your great suggestions and guidance to everyone in this month's contest. You have helped all of us take OK images and dramatically improve them.

    You have not only made suggestions but shown us what you are referring to in our images. From someone who knows something is wrong with her image(s) but cannot figure out exactly what it is, this has been a wonderful, educational and satisfying experience.

    I am looking forward to seeing the end results of everyone's images. Hard to believe there is only a week left in this contest. :bug:

    Kismet couldn't be more right. This has been fantastic, and the real 'prize' for this contest is the great guidance on the WIP thread.

    I agree. It's helped me, moving forward as well! :D

    Thank you guys. I think that Cris and Scott are a great teachers too. This month has been fun and very edifying for me as well. I have so many holes in my training. You all have made me go hunting and learn some stuff along the way. I thank you all for going along with us and trying out our suggestions.

  • Mattkire75Mattkire75 Posts: 77
    edited December 1969

    Thought for my second submission, instead of the whole girl on the bed idea to do an action sequence. I call this Fiesty and Flirty Stephanie: In Defense. Thoughts? All models are DAZ or my Morphs, rendered in DAZ Studio 4.7 and the water from front and smoke effect added in Photoshop CC. It is rendered using High Def Settings.

    Fiesty_and_Flirty_Stephanie_In_Defense.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 386K
  • Cris PalominoCris Palomino Posts: 9,320
    edited December 1969

    poetman75 said:
    Thought for my second submission, instead of the whole girl on the bed idea to do an action sequence. I call this Fiesty and Flirty Stephanie: In Defense. Thoughts? All models are DAZ or my Morphs, rendered in DAZ Studio 4.7 and the water from front and smoke effect added in Photoshop CC. It is rendered using High Def Settings.

    This is a very interesting start, poetman. :) I'll come back later to comment, but I wanted to give you, and the others in a thread, something to think about when you start staging your illustrations that contain any kind of fighting. As artists, we not only need to learn to compose, light and color our images, but we must often research if we're illustrating something for which we have no firsthand knowledge.

    The girl closest to the dragon does not have a pose with a good center of gravity. It's a bit too casual for someone in defense mode. Take the time to look through articles on fighting. These are articles that I have gathered and kept for my own information on stances and fighting methods. Build your own library of these on various subjects. If you look through artists' libraries, you will see that they are not just filled with books on art, but the mechanics of how things work, how they break down...and videos to see things in action. Go out and watch classes on fencing and karate. Knowing how things work will be a key to making your images ring with realism.

    http://asaikarate.com/2013/09/
    http://www.historicalfencing.com/Talhoffers-Fight-Book-Blog.html
    http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=28

  • Cris PalominoCris Palomino Posts: 9,320
    edited December 1969

    Dollygirl said:
    poetman75 said:
    smurph9 said:
    I want to thank Cris, Dollygirl and Scott for your great suggestions and guidance to everyone in this month's contest. You have helped all of us take OK images and dramatically improve them.

    You have not only made suggestions but shown us what you are referring to in our images. From someone who knows something is wrong with her image(s) but cannot figure out exactly what it is, this has been a wonderful, educational and satisfying experience.

    I am looking forward to seeing the end results of everyone's images. Hard to believe there is only a week left in this contest. :bug:

    Kismet couldn't be more right. This has been fantastic, and the real 'prize' for this contest is the great guidance on the WIP thread.

    I agree. It's helped me, moving forward as well! :D

    Thank you guys. I think that Cris and Scott are a great teachers too. This month has been fun and very edifying for me as well. I have so many holes in my training. You all have made me go hunting and learn some stuff along the way. I thank you all for going along with us and trying out our suggestions.

    Adding my own thanks for such kind words. It's really been great to see how nicely the thread has been going and absolutely marvelous to see everyone grow in their own work. The best thing you can do is learn what you can from each piece you do, so you can better your next work. Hang on to all these pieces and review them in a year. You'll be surprised, when you really keep at it, the astounding leaps you will have made.

  • LinwellyLinwelly Posts: 5,220
    edited January 2015

    I tried to implement the ideas to increase the danger in the render by placing the dagger in the new position as proposed by Cris.
    I had everything to my liking when I saw that hint about tangents and I basically did everything I shoudn't. Well, redone, and now I guess I avoidet that trap as good as possible.
    Thanks from me as well for all the teaching to all of you.

    No-dragonslaying-today-version2.jpg
    1200 x 900 - 383K
    Post edited by Linwelly on
  • XangthXangth Posts: 127
    edited December 1969

    Wow everyone renders are incredible. The ones in the final area are awesome. Wished I had more stuff and tools.

  • DollyGirlDollyGirl Posts: 2,510
    edited January 2015

    poetman75 said:
    Thought for my second submission, instead of the whole girl on the bed idea to do an action sequence. I call this Fiesty and Flirty Stephanie: In Defense. Thoughts? All models are DAZ or my Morphs, rendered in DAZ Studio 4.7 and the water from front and smoke effect added in Photoshop CC. It is rendered using High Def Settings.

    What Cris has said about reference material is so important. Google images are my life saver when it comes to getting a pose just right or a scene to be believable. I can not stress how important that research is.

    So I know that Cris is going to come back and give a critique but I think that maybe as an additional exercise you might want to take a crack at answering the following questions.

    What do you think needs to be done? What are you not happy about?

    Did you determine where the sweet spots are for this image and where are they?

    Do you think you have accomplished balance to bring focus to your story and that the story is told well (examples: relative size of characters to each other, control of light and shadow, control of color)?

    Do you have any tangents that need to be corrected?

    Do the poses reflect the focus of the story, is a believable action sequence or are they more passive?

    Post edited by DollyGirl on
  • MilosGulanMilosGulan Posts: 1,886
    edited January 2015

    Thanks for comments, i really like it all. I used ambient on flames, i will try adding lights to them, and see what i can do more to improve the picture, though i had a bit busy day today and i don't think i will be able to do much more. But it is a good start. My idea first was to do just an older wizard in his tower but later somehow it shifted to a scene from Ruins of castle Greyhawk, or at least something like that. I like everything Cris said, and here is picture that I was inspired by http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/images/7/72/Mordenkainen06.jpg

    Post edited by MilosGulan on
  • Mattkire75Mattkire75 Posts: 77
    edited December 1969

    Thanks Chris amd Dollygirl! I took a look at several images and think I found a much better defensive stance for the character on the right. I also re-positioned the camera and lighting some to bring her more into primary focus. Finally I re-positioned the back female character a bit to have her more focused on the dragon as well as gave her an angrier expression. Let me know your thoughts!

    Fiesty_and_Flirty_Stephanie_In_Defense.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 1M
  • aaron575aaron575 Posts: 146
    edited December 1969

    I really liked your image before aaron575 ( especially the camera angle ) but you have taken the suggestions and really ran with them.

    My first thought when I saw this was: Wow


    Thank you very much Kismet2012.


    Yeah, this is great improvement. But be careful not to overdo it with the leaves. This is just my personal feeling, but the quantity you're using is a little distracting (and perhaps not realistic; this is an urban setting, with no visible trees). Maybe see how it looks with about half as many.

    Yeah! I did go a bit overboard.

    I like the back lighting of this image aaron575 but I do so like your first image as well. Putting them side by side what I like about the original is the size of the man to the remaining size of the picture. I also like his stance in the original. He looks proud and more confident. Funny how moving the camera changes the story so much. I agree with Scott about the leaves. I think a sprinkle on the ground would be better. We all know how hard it is walk quietly through leaves. I think the movement comes from your birds. If you decide to do more moving the camera just remember about those tangents.

    Thanks for going along with us. Looking forward to seeing what you decide to do.
    Thank you Dollygirl, and your welcome. I really liked everyones ideas.

  • aaron575aaron575 Posts: 146
    edited December 1969

    Latest version.

    stealth03-1.jpg
    672 x 950 - 476K
  • LinwellyLinwelly Posts: 5,220
    edited December 1969

    Xangth said:
    Wow everyone renders are incredible. The ones in the final area are awesome. Wished I had more stuff and tools.


    Xangth, please don't be afraid to use what you have. The renders you can see here from me are done with the free Daz3d 4.7 pro and the freebies I have collected since I started here which ist end of November last year. I have done no postwork or other additional work in another program, not that this wouldn't be good to do but I first wanted to go with one program to learn what I can.

    Additional material can do a lot, but i think when one starts small one can do a lot as well and it's less confusing, I hope this is a heads up for you.

  • DollyGirlDollyGirl Posts: 2,510
    edited December 1969

    aaron575 said:
    Latest version.

    That is must better aaron575. By adding more birds you have made the story a little more sinister. I like the reduced leaves as well and his stance is much bolder and you don't have any serious tangents. Whohoo! nice!

  • TeofaTeofa Posts: 823
    edited January 2015

    Well, I'm back. I can't find the size rules on submissions.

    This is just DAZ and my cobbled up shaders. Just calling it Warehouse. I need something better.

    second image I tilted a bit to change the horizontal bleh of the stair lines. Dunno how far I want to go with that.

    Actually I just removed the first image.

    warehouse2.jpg
    876 x 700 - 265K
    Post edited by Teofa on
  • DollyGirlDollyGirl Posts: 2,510
    edited January 2015

    Linwelly said:
    I tried to implement the ideas to increase the danger in the render by placing the dagger in the new position as proposed by Cris.
    I had everything to my liking when I saw that hint about tangents and I basically did everything I shoudn't. Well, redone, and now I guess I avoidet that trap as good as possible.
    Thanks from me as well for all the teaching to all of you.

    You are most welcome Linwelly.

    Linwelly, you have improved your image. I think that there are a couple of items that Cris mentioned that might make you like your image even more. If you look real close at her demonstration image you will notice that she moved the guy-with-the-knife's body. She also said to do a stronger silhouette of the dragon. To do the silhouette you can add a spot light above and behind the dragon. This would represent the lighting from the moon and give you a nice ring of light around the wings and maybe his legs.

    Post edited by DollyGirl on
  • DollyGirlDollyGirl Posts: 2,510
    edited December 1969

    poetman75 said:
    Thanks Chris amd Dollygirl! I took a look at several images and think I found a much better defensive stance for the character on the right. I also re-positioned the camera and lighting some to bring her more into primary focus. Finally I re-positioned the back female character a bit to have her more focused on the dragon as well as gave her an angrier expression. Let me know your thoughts!

    Your welcome poetman75.

    Yes poses are much better and the image is much more dynamic and interesting. The girl on the left looks like she is more ready to fight, now that her axe is not so far behind her shield. The girl on the right pose is more believable and adds more movement to the piece.

    I have attached your image with the sweet spots identified and the triangle that is created by the positions of the dragon and the two girls. What I see is that the left girl could move down just a bit to make a more balanced image.
    I also see that where all the action is occurring is in the top two thirds of the image and there is significant space that is not being used in the bottom third. This causes an unbalance to the image as well.

    Hope you will continue to work on this. I see potential.

    Image1.jpg
    998 x 592 - 332K
  • DollyGirlDollyGirl Posts: 2,510
    edited January 2015

    Teofa said:
    Well, I'm back. I can't find the size rules on submissions.

    This is just DAZ and my cobbled up shaders. Just calling it Warehouse. I need something better.

    second image I tilted a bit to change the horizontal bleh of the stair lines. Dunno how far I want to go with that.

    Actually I just removed the first image.

    Welcome to the contest Teofa. I think you have come to the right spot. Let's see if we can help you. I have attached a copy of your image with a set of overlays. You will see a grid which is dividing your image up into 9 blocks. Where the lines intersect I have place a red dot. This overlay is showing you the four points of interest in an image of this size. In the art world they call this the rule of thirds. Cris has provided some links at the beginning of this thread if you need to know more about it. The second overlay is a red triangle that with a point at each of the interest spots that you have on your image.

    So what does all of this mean? Composition is about balance. The triangle tells me that there is need for at least one more element of interest because I don't have anything of interest near the bottom left point of the triangle. The red dots tell me that the points of interest or what I have been calling the sweet spots are underutilized. There is nothing of interest around those areas.

    So what would I do if this was my render? First I would move my camera into a closer shot of the soldiers, to make where my action is a bit bigger in the render. I would be mindful of where I can cut the body out of the scene. This link is to a nice graphic that shows you this information. It is here. I would also add another soldier to the left of the front one but further back and I probably would make this third soldier's head not at the same level as the back soldier's head but a little bit lower then the point of the triangle. This one I would pose as if the soldier was looking back from where they came. Her stance would be that of a soldier on patrol but not at alert. I would do this because it starts to tell the story about these three in the warehouse. They are soldiers, they are on patrol, the point guard has just seen something fishy and is responding but the other two are slower to react or something like that.

    Hope this helps and looking forward to seeing what you do.

    Image2.jpg
    912 x 745 - 315K
    Post edited by DollyGirl on
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