Daz inc. innovating,imitating or stagnating??

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Comments

  • nicstt said:

    I'm passed 40, have no arthritis and find Blender's interface easier to use than Studio's. This is for Blender 2.8 and prior. I find keyboard shortcuts far simpler. I suck at modelling characters which is how I got to Studio. :)

    Me too. I find Blender's interface MUCH easier to use. If I actually had any artistic skills, I probably wouldn't use Daz at all, but I don't and therefore Daz is as indespensible to me as Blender is. That's why I whine incessantly that the two don't play nice together.

  • p0rtp0rt Posts: 217
    Daz doesnt have a target, with GPU acceleration om all the viewports, someone could easily make a whole season of the family guy within 3 months with custom tonn shaders, while animating for games is painless if a company wants a lifelike world with all charectors having 300 different animations
  • drzap said:
    Maya is free with the education subscription (very liberal conditions, just sign up for a 3d course) and is currently the BEST choice for anyone who wants to use Daz figures with professional features mentioned by others on this thread.  There is absolutely no barrier to using state-of-the-art hair, dynamics, cloth along with the best character animation tools in the industry and whatever else you feel you might need with Daz figures, except your imagination and willingness to learn.   I really don't know what the big whoop is.  Blender is nice, but it doesn't handle Daz figures as smoothly.  With the G8 for Maya plugin, a Daz figure smoothly goes to Maya with morphs and JCM's intact.  There is even a plugin by the same author that automatically handles the material conversion to different renderers (Redshift, Arnold, and Vray).  It's ridiculously easy now, and did I say its practically free?  In Maya, I have choices of 4 or more hair simulators (aftermarket and costly) or the very good built-in systems (there are two of them, both pro quality).  Want explosions and FX like liquids?  Also built into Maya (FREE) and there are aftermarket plugins, all very good.  A hobbyist can play and play until their heart's content.  A real pro is having very little to do with Daz Studio anyways (unless they enjoy working more slowly).  I used to lament over Daz Studio not being up to the task of animating Daz figures - until I discovered Maya.  I never looked back and suspect I never will.  Subscriptions are for pros who can pay for them with earnings from their work or their studios.   For those who are learning 3d, Maya is free.

    I know what a well of knowledge you are, and everything you say is true. But the fact that Blender is Open Source matters to some people as a principle.

  • Asari said:
    Really it's that easy? A 3D course would suffice? I always thought it was more difficult and the 3D course has to qualify for anything in order for Maya to be recognized. I don't think I have the time and skills to learn Maya but that's interesting news. I'm dying to learn Ornatrix which is available for Maya but I could never afford Maya.

    It's easier. I got one by saying I just wanted to learn 3D.

  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 3,936
    edited October 2019
    On the Matter of Maya...first I thought ADSK now offered an "indy" version for around 300 USD per year. Also we have had lengthy discussions ,over at the Cgsociety forums, about Autodesk EDU policy and the general consensus is that they have a defacto "wink & nod " policy regarding their EDU licences.... This is because they have an interest in having newbie CG /VFX artists learn their products..sing its praises in discussions like this one ..... and go on to work for the Major movie studios where Autodesk makes their $$Real income$$$....... One person here ,on these daz forums, claimed he told Autodesk that he was "self educating" via YT videos and they gave him an EDU license for Maya ,Max ,MOBU.... So people Like Drzap are not really"cheating" Autodesk as they could easily turn off his software license anytime if they truly cared to do so.
    Post edited by wolf359 on
  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,762

    Actually DAZ is very innovative if you use DAZ content in DAZ Studio. You can't deny that. And that's why I hope animation is also innovatively feature expanded for novices like myself.  Softbody physics and all that jazz can comes to DAZ Studio. I'd like it.  I'd even like a multiplatform game engine.

  • drzapdrzap Posts: 795
    kyoto kid said:
    drzap said:
    Padone said:
    drzap said:

    Blender is nice, but it doesn't handle Daz figures smoothly.  With the G8 for Maya plugin, a Daz figure smoothly goes to Maya with morphs and JCM's intact.

    Can you elaborate please ? What's in the maya plugin that blender doesn't get ? As for G3 and G8, morphs and jcms are imported fine in blender. And materials conversion is quite good too.

    I might be mistaken, but the last time I checked, the best ways to get Daz into Blender was Diffeomorphic and Teleblender.  Neither of them are as easy as pie as Genesis 8 for Maya.  Literally in 3 clicks I can import a figure, attached to an IK control rig with morphs already attached with sliders.  Want a full face rig with support for iPhone facial mocap?  There is a script for that.   I'm not sure about Teleblender, but Diffeomorphic involves more steps to get that and you still won't get the IK control rig for animation (which is the reason you're importing from Daz, right?)   As I said, Blender is nice and it's free, but Maya is the best and free.

    ...well, "free" only after you pay for the college credit (and any required prerequisites). To qualify for the basic 3D Modelling and Animation course at our local community college you would need an additional 13 credits  of prerequisite courses (total of 16) which comes to 1,850$, about 300$ is more than the standard annual subscription price. I also imagine the educational rate is only effective while you are enrolled.at an accredited college as Autodesk no longer offers perpetual licences..

    As mentioned above, if one has the imagination and properly motivated, they can always find a way to get from A to B without breaking any rules.  Certainly, don't need to pay that absurd amount to acquire a Maya educational license.

  • drzapdrzap Posts: 795
    drzap said:
    akmerlow said:
    kyoto kid said:

    Maya is subscription only and costs now nearly $1,600 per year, without even an option for a one-time payment.  I can afford this probably easier than many.  But I have no idea if the UI is squished like DAZ software...and that would make it worthless.  Besides that, I have my dignity to consider.  A cruise might be more rewarding.

     

    Maya is free with the education subscription (very liberal conditions, just sign up for a 3d course) and is currently the BEST choice for anyone who wants to use Daz figures with professional features mentioned by others on this thread. 

    I'm sorry, but I've read the educational terms.  First off, they're rather specific and LENGTHY.  They are NOT as "liberal" as you say, and the way I interpret it, I'd rather pay the $1600 subscription than possibly get caught up in an ethics case just because I showed my artwork to somebody who started asking questions.

     

    Asari said:
    drzap said:

    Maya is free with the education subscription (very liberal conditions, just sign up for a 3d course) and is currently the BEST choice for anyone who wants to use Daz figures with professional features mentioned by others on this thread.  There is absolutely no barrier to using state-of-the-art hair, dynamics, cloth along with the best character animation tools in the industry and whatever else you feel you might need with Daz figures, except your imagination and willingness to learn.

     

    Really it's that easy? A 3D course would suffice? I always thought it was more difficult and the 3D course has to qualify for anything in order for Maya to be recognized. I don't think I have the time and skills to learn Maya but that's interesting news. I'm dying to learn Ornatrix which is available for Maya but I could never afford Maya.

     

    Stop right there and READ THE TERMS.  Don't get sucked in and find your name in the news one day.

    drzap said:
    Asari said:
    drzap said:

    There were no such requirements when I applied (2017).

     

    You have to study at a qualified educational institution and according to the terms it's only those:

     

    Middle schools and high schools Junior colleges Colleges, universities, and technical schools Home school programs that belong to a nationally recognized home schooling body

     

    Which rules out a lot of hobbyists who just wish to learn Maya and not interested at all to start commercial activities. A lot of 3D courses won't qualify for the Maya terms.

     

    Guess for those people Blender is still the only option.

    NOt at all.  There are online schools that qualify (Gnomon for example).  Simply apply for a class to get your Maya license and don't reapply after your first term.  That's what I did and I got a 3 year educational license.  I saw no stipulation that you had to attend class the full duration of the 3 years.

    You are definitely outside the bounds of the SPIRIT OF THE AGREEMENT.  You should not do this.  The educational license does not cover the ethical contortions that you're putting yourself into.

    kyoto kid said:
    drzap said:
    Padone said:
    drzap said:

    Blender is nice, but it doesn't handle Daz figures smoothly.  With the G8 for Maya plugin, a Daz figure smoothly goes to Maya with morphs and JCM's intact.

    Can you elaborate please ? What's in the maya plugin that blender doesn't get ? As for G3 and G8, morphs and jcms are imported fine in blender. And materials conversion is quite good too.

    I might be mistaken, but the last time I checked, the best ways to get Daz into Blender was Diffeomorphic and Teleblender.  Neither of them are as easy as pie as Genesis 8 for Maya.  Literally in 3 clicks I can import a figure, attached to an IK control rig with morphs already attached with sliders.  Want a full face rig with support for iPhone facial mocap?  There is a script for that.   I'm not sure about Teleblender, but Diffeomorphic involves more steps to get that and you still won't get the IK control rig for animation (which is the reason you're importing from Daz, right?)   As I said, Blender is nice and it's free, but Maya is the best and free.

    ...well, "free" only after you pay for the college credit (and any required prerequisites). To qualify for the basic 3D Modelling and Animation course at our local community college you would need an additional 13 credits  of prerequisite courses (total of 16) which comes to 1,850$, about 300$ is more than the standard annual subscription price. I also imagine the educational rate is only effective while you are enrolled.at an accredited college as Autodesk no longer offers perpetual licences..

    This doesn't matter.  It would STILL be cheaper than being found guilty of fraud.

    I say tread with caution here.  Better yet, if you're not actually attending a school and learning Maya as part of your coursework, then you'd be a lot safer by just signing up for the regular subscription.

     

    Umm....No.     I went to the official Autodesk website, filled out the official forms on their webpage to apply for the license.  There was a place on the form to choose from one of the schools.  The school that offered my course wasn't on the list but Autodesk allowed me to add my school as "other".    After filling out the form, they then approved my application for a student account and issued me a three year, three workstation license.  I continue using that license today and I even downloaded Maya 2019 and installed it a couple of months ago.  Yeah, I think I'm clear of any fraud charges.  They approved me after I entered my student info, bro.  I continue to take courses here and there as needed, but not by any single school curriculum.

     

    Regarding the spirit of the agreement according to the terms:  Basically, its, you must be an active student learning their software for educational purposes and not using it for profit.  Sounds about right to me.

     

     

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,762

    Yes, it's pretty easy to get educational license for Autodesk SW. Full Sail & other '3D Interactive' curricula universities are never going to meet the need let alone find enough students that can pay the tuition. There are probably some abusing the concept to make their Unity and UE4 amateur games while trying to catch lighting in a bottle. Those amateurs could never have afforded to buy Maya and such in the 1st place so they wind up being free beta testers & UI usability testers. Also, don't discount that they collect usage metrics & see most installations are barely touched, even a somewhat active hobbyist with a job will only be messing 16 hours and usually less with it in a good week.

  • I think that is quite enough on the Maya Educational licensing, thank you.

  • tkdroberttkdrobert Posts: 3,611
    edited October 2019

    I'm pretty satified with Daz.  If I could have one wish, I would love Daz to imitate Poser's "Comic Style Render" feature and have it built in.  I get good results using PW toon and LineRender9000, but the Poser feature allows for real-time viewing of the line art and real-time adjustments.  I have both Poser 11 and Daz, but I like Daz better because it's what I'm trained in and has superior models IMHO (I like doing photoreal and comic book style art).  

    The only other issue I have is with Daz3D artists (don't get me wrong, I love you all), i.e. PA's not making exactly what I want.  I have niche interests (i.e. ,mecha madness).  Although Daz has a whole lot of options available, they aren't always exactly what I want/need.  I don't want to spend $18-$35 on just ok (I'm thinking of that comerial right now).  I would love to learn modeling in Hexagon and rigging in DAZ, but I don't have the time right now.

    Post edited by tkdrobert on
  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 3,936
    Make the time to learn.. Trust me, You will be glad you did!!!
  • Sven DullahSven Dullah Posts: 7,621
    edited October 2019
    tkdrobert said:

    I'm pretty satified with Daz.  If I could have one wish, I would love Daz to imitate Poser's "Comic Style Render" feature and have it built in.  I get good results using PW toon and LineRender9000, but the Poser feature allows for real-time viewing of the line art and real-time adjustments.

    I don't have pwToon or Linerender9000, but maybe it's possible to use IPR in the aux viewport? (Interactive Progressive Rendering)

    Post edited by Sven Dullah on
  • tkdroberttkdrobert Posts: 3,611
    edited October 2019
    tkdrobert said:

    I'm pretty satified with Daz.  If I could have one wish, I would love Daz to imitate Poser's "Comic Style Render" feature and have it built in.  I get good results using PW toon and LineRender9000, but the Poser feature allows for real-time viewing of the line art and real-time adjustments.

    I don't have pwToon or Linerender9000, but maybe it's possible to use IPR in the aux viewport? (Interactive Progressive Rendering)

    LineRender can't be previewed.  It creates line and shadow layers that you can composite in an art program such as Photoshop or GIMP.  I use PWToon (or Visual Style Shaders) for a cartoon look and LineRender for linework and shadows (don't always use though).  I put it all together in Photoshop, then I may use Clip Paint Studio to clean up the linework.  Something like Poser's real time comicbook render would save me a lot of time in post-work.  It's a minor thing.

    Post edited by tkdrobert on
  • tkdroberttkdrobert Posts: 3,611
    edited October 2019
    wolf359 said:
    Make the time to learn.. Trust me, You will be glad you did!!!

    Easier said than done.  Next year I may be able to free some time up for it.  The question I still haven't answered is whether to use Hexagon (free) or Blender (free).  I've used Hexagon for a little project and it has a user-friendly interface, much like Daz.  I tried Blender about 2 years ago for 2D art and I found it complicated and intimidating.  However, there are more tutorials and training videos/on-line courses for Blender.  I would primarly like to make spaceships and Mecha.  Rigging mecha for Daz intimidates me.

    Post edited by tkdrobert on
  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 15,393
    wolf359 said:
    Make the time to learn.. Trust me, You will be glad you did!!!

    +1

  • tkdroberttkdrobert Posts: 3,611

    I really really don't get why some people have this obsession to turn DS to a paid for applicationsurprise. If you have too much money, make a donation! I'm sure it will fall in good hands.

    yes

  • tkdroberttkdrobert Posts: 3,611

    Now that I've read the whole thread, I didn't know you could get a free Maya student license.  My kids may end up learning Maya, so I might sign up for a self-paced online couse and use Maya.  Man, I really do need to free up some time.

  • akmerlowakmerlow Posts: 1,124
    tkdrobert said:

    Easier said than done.  Next year I may be able to free some time up for it.  The question I still haven't answered is whether to use Hexagon (free) or Blender (free).  I've used Hexagon for a little project and it has a user-friendly interface, much like Daz.  I tried Blender about 2 years ago for 2D art and I found it complicated and intimidating.  However, there are more tutorials and training videos/on-line courses for Blender.  I would primarly like to make spaceships and Mecha.  Rigging mecha for Daz intimidates me.

    I think it's better compare Hexagon to Wings3D, Silo , kHED (and, maybe, Metasequoia 3D) as they are almost purely modelling tools, while Blender is more like "complete package" like Maya, Carrara etc.

     

    Btw, if your main interest will be mecha and spaceships, i think you might be interested to know that there is so called "hard surface" modelling approach which is often chosen for such projects.

    https://conceptartempire.com/hard-surface-organic-modeling/

    maybe in the past people didnt differentiate though

  • tkdroberttkdrobert Posts: 3,611
    akmerlow said:
    tkdrobert said:

    Easier said than done.  Next year I may be able to free some time up for it.  The question I still haven't answered is whether to use Hexagon (free) or Blender (free).  I've used Hexagon for a little project and it has a user-friendly interface, much like Daz.  I tried Blender about 2 years ago for 2D art and I found it complicated and intimidating.  However, there are more tutorials and training videos/on-line courses for Blender.  I would primarly like to make spaceships and Mecha.  Rigging mecha for Daz intimidates me.

    I think it's better compare Hexagon to Wings3D, Silo , kHED (and, maybe, Metasequoia 3D) as they are almost purely modelling tools, while Blender is more like "complete package" like Maya, Carrara etc.

     

    Btw, if your main interest will be mecha and spaceships, i think you might be interested to know that there is so called "hard surface" modelling approach which is often chosen for such projects.

    https://conceptartempire.com/hard-surface-organic-modeling/

    maybe in the past people didnt differentiate though

    Thanks for the info.

  • I would recommend OP sit down with DAZ Studio and really explore its abilities. It's absolutely insane what it can do, for free, let alone the paid add-ons. The fact that we even get free SDK access to create our own plug-ins (something I've been wanting for Poser for years), and so so so much more. Then you have some of the best PAs who extend it even further. This program has given me (and others, if I'd just share my work) access to my imagination in a way that I never thought possible. I'm a graphics programmer and it's basically the perfect sandbox proving ground for concepts, both technical and artistic. I was a diehard Poser fan for years, and I still love it because it's what started everything, but really look at DS, especially these latest updates, and it's not hard to see the appeal and power.

    I agree that the quality of Daz's framework speaks for itself when it enables the PAs to do such awesome work. What Daz enables people to do, and the ease at which they can do it is unparalleled, full stop.

    But, sir, have you actually tried to USE the SDK for something non-trivial yet, and tried to figure something out with the included "documentation"? Seriously, why even bother saying that you have documentation when virtually all of it is like:

    Function: getX()

    Description: Gets the X

    I am not kidding. I think someone wrote a parser that auto-generated the documentation.

    Or have you heard the deafening chirp of the crickets after posting in the SDK forum an extremely basic question that you couldn't divine from useless non-explanations like the representative one above? As an exercise in reality, go to the SDK forum and count the number of questions, from what number of users, that is someone saying "I couldn't figure out how to do..." and has ZERO replies.

    Or have you had direct messages to a Daz dev, literally begging for any kind of help, ANYTHING, and been 100% completely ignored? Not even a reply saying, "I don't know", "Sorry, that's Daz IP", or even "I'm really busy and can't respond right now"?

    I think you are reacting to the POTENTIAL of what Daz Studio should be and can be, but not what it IS.

    Yet people do write pulg-ins succesfully.

    I do think expecting one of the developers tot ake time to answer a PM is a little optimistic - they have a lot to do, and would rapidly get buried if they tried to provide one-on-one help.

  • Yet people do write pulg-ins succesfully.

    I do think expecting one of the developers tot ake time to answer a PM is a little optimistic - they have a lot to do, and would rapidly get buried if they tried to provide one-on-one help.

    I am grateful to you, Richard, as you were the only one that actually behaved as if my project was important, even if it's only important to me, and if only out of courtesy to say "I don't know the answer to your question.".

    But I think a dev being "too busy" to help a user who is passionate and trying to enhance the product to better suit his needs is probably the best example of why Daz Studio will eventually no longer be able to compete. Not an outdated version of Qt.

  • marth_emarth_e Posts: 187
    edited October 2019

    I really see a lot of potential to something like this:



    As you can see in the video you don't have to be an expert in Blender to take advantage of it. As a matter of fact the interface for the end user is very similar to what they already have in DAZ Studio. But you also have all the advantages of Blender for free. Real time render with EEVEE. Photorealistic render with Cycles. Better rigging with proper Inverse Kinematics.
    And for the more advanced user you can take advantage of all the super powerful modeling tools inside Blender. You can also use the sculpting capabilities to create morphs. You can create and edit you UVs and you can 3D paint your textures directly over the 3D geometry. You can use professional animation tools. You can run simulations and dynamics. All within the same interface.

    But you don't have to be an expert in Blender to start using it at the same level that you use DAZ Studio right now. What is wrong with that?

    Post edited by marth_e on
  • marth_emarth_e Posts: 187

    And this is how the viewport looks realtime in Blender compared to how it looks in DAZ:

     

    Clipboard Image.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 233K
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,925
    drzap said:

    Except for the fact that Ubisoft is made up of industry professional artists who are used to dealing with sophisticated and complicated software and Daz Studio is targeting mainly the hobbyist, point and click market.  Unless you are talking about using Blender as an additional Daz Studio "Pro", Daz3d would have to completely reorient their market position and strategy because Blender isn't nearly as easy to use as Daz Studio.   They would lose huge portions of their original base.  That is "why not DAZ".

    I don't see how the people that should know how to do it making an export tool to get great Daz content into Blender would cost Daz any customers.

    ...I'd really like it as then I can do more custom sculpting for my characters without the need to scrape up 700$ for ZBrush.

  • Yet people do write pulg-ins succesfully.

    I do think expecting one of the developers tot ake time to answer a PM is a little optimistic - they have a lot to do, and would rapidly get buried if they tried to provide one-on-one help.

    Yes, people do write plug-ins successfully. But how much harder is it to do so because Daz does not really help? How many more cool plug-ins would Daz have if every reasonably skilled developer with a certain amount of initiative could actually write a non-trivial one before he gives up in frustration because he knows that he is simply missing something simple but essential, that should really be written down somewhere instead of left for each individual to waste the few hours a week he has for his hobby, and rediscover for himself every single time?

  • Speaking of Maya and Max, I just got a 3 year Education license from them due to my school email address.  Haven't installed them yet, but I will later today.  I think I will only use them to learn more as far as cinematic properties but as long as I have Daz content, I'm not going to worry about reinventing the wheel while I have tons of content but I will model the props I need going forward.  My main MAIN 3D app is Cinema 4D (use to be Carrara but...well...you know).

  • SorelSorel Posts: 1,412
    marth_e said:

    I really see a lot of potential to something like this:



    As you can see in the video you don't have to be an expert in Blender to take advantage of it. As a matter of fact the interface for the end user is very similar to what they already have in DAZ Studio. But you also have all the advantages of Blender for free. Real time render with EEVEE. Photorealistic render with Cycles. Better rigging with proper Inverse Kinematics.
    And for the more advanced user you can take advantage of all the super powerful modeling tools inside Blender. You can also use the sculpting capabilities to create morphs. You can create and edit you UVs and you can 3D paint your textures directly over the 3D geometry. You can use professional animation tools. You can run simulations and dynamics. All within the same interface.

    But you don't have to be an expert in Blender to start using it at the same level that you use DAZ Studio right now. What is wrong with that?

    Thank you for posting this. Looks like it's time to learn Blender.

  • Yet people do write pulg-ins succesfully.

    I do think expecting one of the developers tot ake time to answer a PM is a little optimistic - they have a lot to do, and would rapidly get buried if they tried to provide one-on-one help.

    I am grateful to you, Richard, as you were the only one that actually behaved as if my project was important, even if it's only important to me, and if only out of courtesy to say "I don't know the answer to your question.".

    But I think a dev being "too busy" to help a user who is passionate and trying to enhance the product to better suit his needs is probably the best example of why Daz Studio will eventually no longer be able to compete. Not an outdated version of Qt.

    This is an unreasonable sentiment.  Developers need to be allowed to focus on their development activities.  How many times have you taken "just a minute" to respond to an email or a forum thread, and found out that you blew an hour or more just composing your response, and then responding to the next six followup messages, IMs, or phone calls?

    Just four emails or forum threads like that and you've lost 10% of your dev's productivity for that whole week!  We all like to think we know how business is supposed to work, but I assure you, you really have zero idea until you've done it.  And you only have a small inkling of an idea if you've been a dev.  True understanding doesn't even begin to enter your mind until you have actually had to manage, pay, and get deliverables out of a team of people, all with their little 10% and 20% distractions throughout the week constantly killing productivity.  And when productivity falls, so does morale.

    A huge part of any manager's time is spent keeping people not on the team from overtaxing the team.  Too many distractions hurt the project.  And a failed (or even mixed-success) project always impacts morale.  That is super dangerous, so I surely wouldn't ask my devs to come to the company forum and respond to people who may or may not be actual paying customers.  Even if I wanted to be entrepreneurial and allow them to do it as an option, I'd probably have to establish a policy with limits on time spent on such activities not directly associated with the deliverables.

  • This is an unreasonable sentiment.  Developers need to be allowed to focus on their development activities.  How many times have you taken "just a minute" to respond to an email or a forum thread, and found out that you blew an hour or more just composing your response, and then responding to the next six followup messages, IMs, or phone calls?

    If you've never been involved in an open source project, I can see why it would seem "unreasonable" to you that which is just the baseline expectation to those that have. Maybe that's my problem. But believe me, once you've had it, you'll want it everywhere you go.

This discussion has been closed.