The History of Carrara

124

Comments

  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 11,714
    edited December 1969

    As long as I had the Carrara 3 Handbook disc open, I was interested to see the list of people who had contributed to the Users Gallery on the disc. Can't share some of the renders without permission, but I suspect folks will recognize some of the names. See the screengrab.

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  • ringo monfortringo monfort Posts: 927
    edited December 1969

    diomede64 said:
    As long as I had the Carrara 3 Handbook disc open, I was interested to see the list of people who had contributed to the Users Gallery on the disc. Can't share some of the renders without permission, but I suspect folks will recognize some of the names. See the screengrab.

    I do recognize about 95% of the names .:) Long time Carrara Heroes.

  • Good talk, all. I too have been using the software since it was Raydream. Also fun to see someone who used Amapi. That was the program that slingshotted my modeling skills. Thanks to all of you for developing cool software for us 3D freek designers.

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 16,779

    Good talk, all. I too have been using the software since it was Raydream. Also fun to see someone who used Amapi. That was the program that slingshotted my modeling skills. Thanks to all of you for developing cool software for us 3D freek designers.

    yes

  •  

    RingoMonfort said:

    Dart,

     

    I agree with you, us Carrara PA are here to make things easier for the community and at the same time help promote Carrara. This in turn will help drive up sales and this will help with the Development of Carrara.

    Like you mention Carrara has plenty of powerful features that allow users from hobbyists to Professionals created amazing images, animations etc.

    Here is my suggestions to DAZ 3D:

    Make Carrara the DAZ 3D all in one solutions for Content Development.
    This means don't just make it load and animate DAZ 3D figures such as Victoria but develop Carrara so that any user can create a Victoria in Carrara. From modeling, rigging, texturing, morph creating... everything.
    This means put all of Hexagon in Carrara and all of the DAZ Studio features in Carrara.
    Improved the 3D Painting to the level that PA will use it.
    Let all PA learn and use Carrara for Content development.
    Promote Carrara in other venues that will bring in more high-end users that will also create more content.
    It would be a win win for DAZ 3D and the community.

    Ringo Monfort

     

    There's just one itsy-bitsy gigantically huge problem with this ideal. The spin is somewhat of a lie. It is my opinion that the people behind the scenes at Daz dont actually use the software they sell, aside from Daz Studio.

    Why should Daz expect people to build content in Carrara when they themselves don't even use Carrara for building content? Was Genesis modeled in Hexagon or Carrara? Nope. Have ANY of the figures sold here been created in Carrara or Hexagon? Do you ever see Carrara landscapes or Bryce landscapes rendered by any of the Daz staff other than moderators who arent even staff members? Even when they have the preview threads about new characters in the Commons or Members Only, do you often see sample renders made in Bryce or in Hexagon? No. Do you see Daz making an effort to promote PA's who actively utilize Daz software for making content? No. Does Stonemason use Carrara for his models....doubt it. Does Mec4D use any Daz software for creating her amazing content? Probably not. In fact, can anyone name a single PA who exclusively uses Daz3d applications solely for creating content that will eventually be sold?

    We the community members are the only ones using these applications. It would not surprise me if many of the executives haven't ever opened Bryce or Hexagon scenes. Have never ever ever used Carrara.

    Many of these people have formal training and in school they dont teach Carrara, they teach Maya, Lightwave etc.....

    Lack of development tells me all I need to know about how often they themselves choose their own applications for accomplishing real work. Let's be honest, if you use Carrara every day then the bugs will annoy you and you will want to fix them. Lack of cloth in Carrara would annoy you too. Lack of genuine Genesis support would truly annoy you.

    If you use Bryce you know how badly it needs to be 64 bit. You know how badly it needs another development cycle to fix the yet underdeveloped instancing and broken tree mesh export. Hexagon could use some major stability upgrades. If you used these applications often enough, you would know quite well what is needed to improve the applications. And again I state the annoyance one would experience from regular use of the applications would be catalyzing enough that development would never cease as it tends to do around here.

    It seems to me the only real requirement for working at Daz3d is that you familiarize yourself with Daz Studio. Period. The others are optional. That is a very big problem.

    I conclude by reiterating that what Daz has yet to do is to PROVE that Carrara really can be the all in one solution. They're all such experts with Cinema 4D, Maya, Lightwave, 3DSMax, you name it and they use it. But many of them know next to nothing about using any of the daz software aside from Daz Studio itself .

    I hope I am wrong about this, I just doubt it very much. This is the Daz Studio show, the rest of the applications are supporting cast members at best. There is nothing wrong with that, so long as we all know what we are really dealing with here.

    Moderators: If this post is offensive or breaks TOS rules in any way please let me know and I will remove it promptly.

    You just summed up why Carrara and Bryce are dead, Daz Studio is their focus now 

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,330
    edited February 2017

    Which is a shame, because while I love rendering in Daz Studio, for actually making stuff, I love Carrara.

    I also think with good marketing, and a basic update to cover a lot of niggling little things (like, for example, when you are entering in a file name or browsing, you can't 'ctrl-A' to select the entire field), Carrara could attract a lot of customers looking for an easy-entry modeler/mapper/etc.

    Let me be more specific: Carrara seems, IMO, ideal for the sorts of customers Daz already seeks out.

    Oh, and as for me, I had my start with Ray Dream Studio, then Ray Dream Designer, then eventually Carrara before taking a 15 year 'I can't afford the hardware to do this' hiatus that ended two years ago.

     

     

    Post edited by Oso3D on
  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 16,779

     

    RingoMonfort said:

    Dart,

     

    I agree with you, us Carrara PA are here to make things easier for the community and at the same time help promote Carrara. This in turn will help drive up sales and this will help with the Development of Carrara.

    Like you mention Carrara has plenty of powerful features that allow users from hobbyists to Professionals created amazing images, animations etc.

    Here is my suggestions to DAZ 3D:

    Make Carrara the DAZ 3D all in one solutions for Content Development.
    This means don't just make it load and animate DAZ 3D figures such as Victoria but develop Carrara so that any user can create a Victoria in Carrara. From modeling, rigging, texturing, morph creating... everything.
    This means put all of Hexagon in Carrara and all of the DAZ Studio features in Carrara.
    Improved the 3D Painting to the level that PA will use it.
    Let all PA learn and use Carrara for Content development.
    Promote Carrara in other venues that will bring in more high-end users that will also create more content.
    It would be a win win for DAZ 3D and the community.

    Ringo Monfort

     

    There's just one itsy-bitsy gigantically huge problem with this ideal. The spin is somewhat of a lie. It is my opinion that the people behind the scenes at Daz dont actually use the software they sell, aside from Daz Studio.

    Why should Daz expect people to build content in Carrara when they themselves don't even use Carrara for building content? Was Genesis modeled in Hexagon or Carrara? Nope. Have ANY of the figures sold here been created in Carrara or Hexagon? Do you ever see Carrara landscapes or Bryce landscapes rendered by any of the Daz staff other than moderators who arent even staff members? Even when they have the preview threads about new characters in the Commons or Members Only, do you often see sample renders made in Bryce or in Hexagon? No. Do you see Daz making an effort to promote PA's who actively utilize Daz software for making content? No. Does Stonemason use Carrara for his models....doubt it. Does Mec4D use any Daz software for creating her amazing content? Probably not. In fact, can anyone name a single PA who exclusively uses Daz3d applications solely for creating content that will eventually be sold?

    We the community members are the only ones using these applications. It would not surprise me if many of the executives haven't ever opened Bryce or Hexagon scenes. Have never ever ever used Carrara.

    Many of these people have formal training and in school they dont teach Carrara, they teach Maya, Lightwave etc.....

    Lack of development tells me all I need to know about how often they themselves choose their own applications for accomplishing real work. Let's be honest, if you use Carrara every day then the bugs will annoy you and you will want to fix them. Lack of cloth in Carrara would annoy you too. Lack of genuine Genesis support would truly annoy you.

    If you use Bryce you know how badly it needs to be 64 bit. You know how badly it needs another development cycle to fix the yet underdeveloped instancing and broken tree mesh export. Hexagon could use some major stability upgrades. If you used these applications often enough, you would know quite well what is needed to improve the applications. And again I state the annoyance one would experience from regular use of the applications would be catalyzing enough that development would never cease as it tends to do around here.

    It seems to me the only real requirement for working at Daz3d is that you familiarize yourself with Daz Studio. Period. The others are optional. That is a very big problem.

    I conclude by reiterating that what Daz has yet to do is to PROVE that Carrara really can be the all in one solution. They're all such experts with Cinema 4D, Maya, Lightwave, 3DSMax, you name it and they use it. But many of them know next to nothing about using any of the daz software aside from Daz Studio itself .

    I hope I am wrong about this, I just doubt it very much. This is the Daz Studio show, the rest of the applications are supporting cast members at best. There is nothing wrong with that, so long as we all know what we are really dealing with here.

    Moderators: If this post is offensive or breaks TOS rules in any way please let me know and I will remove it promptly.

    You just summed up why Carrara and Bryce are dead, Daz Studio is their focus now 

    I disagree with the whole negativity scene here.

    Why should Daz3d be expected to use Carrara or Bryce or Hexagon in order to make their figures and other products just because they bought the rites to, and now sell the software - especially when they NEVER make such demands on anyone else?

    Modo is an amazing modeler and is at the height of development for this type of software, which is their forte - it's what they do.

    Daz3d are content developers whom have developed their own counter-monopoly to Poser. They have some amazing development staff working on Daz Studio, which is their baby. All of the others they've either bought and now continue to keep from disappearing in the void - so folks who like it can still use it, or are in their store as a service to the authors, like Project Dogwaffle. Sears make their own tools, but are not restricted to selling only that which they produce.

    Ringo and I (and others) creating Carrara-specific products to cater to and support Carrara users is our own way of supporting Carrara as Daz3d artists, which is what we were talking about.

    Yes, Daz3d has constant, active developmment on their Daz Studio. They know where they want to go with their figure technology and they are constantly pushing to make their new figures and their Studio the best that they can be, but NEVER tell people which software they have to use - EVER. 

    I know that there are people at Daz3d whom use Carrara and love it - and they also buy products from us Carrara-specific PAs because they like what we make for it. That, in no way, should force the to use the software for anything they don't want to use it for - same with any other software user.

    There's a HitFilm behind the scenes video showing one of their production being edited in a different editor than HitFilm! That's a bit different case than what we have here!

    ...and I don't understand how anyone can consider that Carrara or Bryce are dead just because there doesn't appear to be any active development. Take a look at either forum. Do they look dead to you? They sure don't look dead to me. Underdeveloped? Yeah... I'd love to see Bryce users get updated to 64 bit and some other modern upgrades. I'd love to see some development done to Carara - but I'm in no hurry for it.

    I open Carrara and do things with it that I cannot get very far with in the constantly developed Daz Studio and Poser, and absolutely love the time I have doing it. So it surely isn't dead to me!

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 16,779

    Take a look at TangoAlpha's store - a relatively new PA to the scene here at Daz3d, and he does all of his modeling and UV Mapping directly in Carrara, and makes stuff which provides version for both Daz Studio and Carrara.

    Daz3d doesn't tell us what software to use. Why should they? There's so much out there to choose from - all of which is excellent in the right hands.

    This stuff is Gorgeous - absolutely gorgeous! And it's beautiful whether using Daz Studio or Carrara or both!

      

     

    Killer stuff, all made in Carrara, which is really far from being dead!

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 16,779

    TangoAlpha's Tangy Apple Orchard

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 16,779

    Okay, that's TangoAlpha. Those products are awesome and he's making more.

    Even the stuff that was made years ago specifically for Carrara are still amazing today. Here's a thread where I showcase some of it... more to come.

    ► Learning CARRARA and need some help?

    I'm not old yet, and Carrara certainly ain't dyin' before me!!!

     

  • StezzaStezza Posts: 5,949

    where are these props available in Carrara?

    I can't find them sad

  • Bunyip02Bunyip02 Posts: 4,566
    Stezza said:

    where are these props available in Carrara?

    I can't find them sad

    Hello Stezza, hope your health is back on track.

    The items above are DAZ duf props, Carrara items are some of the plants.

    Checked my zip files for both versions and the props are definately in the DAZ props.

    http://www.daz3d.com/tangy-apple-orchard shows the seperation in the "Whats Included and Features" list.

    Regards, Bunyip

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 16,779
    edited February 2017

    Ahhh... gotcha. Like Howie's awesome scenes, it's easy enough (and fairly quick) to save the individual props from the scene to the browser.

    Point is, any Daz3d PA (same goes for most other 3d content stores) may use whatever tools they want to create their products. I mean, who would ever want to tell an artist which tools they have to use in order to become published?

    And who ever said that the folks that work at/for Daz3d don't use Carrara? I know a few personally.

    I get it. Some of us feel betrayed that Carrara (and Bryce, Hexagon, etc.,) aren't getting the love they deserve - I totally understand. I just feel that scorn and negativity towards Daz3d and/or the software itself is unfair. All three of these mentioned apps have been sold off, and Daz3d scored them up - did some developmental upgrades to them for a while, and still keep them available (aka"Alive") to those who wnat/need the software as well as keeping an open door for new users.

    Not all of us require or even want to have to spend a few hundred bucks every year or two for upgrades.

    There's just one itsy-bitsy gigantically huge problem with this ideal. The spin is somewhat of a lie. It is my opinion that the people behind the scenes at Daz dont actually use the software they sell, aside from Daz Studio.

    Why should Daz expect people to build content in Carrara when they themselves don't even use Carrara for building content? Was Genesis modeled in Hexagon or Carrara? Nope.

    Most of the dairy farmers I know don't drink milk... who cares? The milk they sell is still top-notch!

    Who ever said that Daz3d expects anyone to do anything with Carrara?

    Most of the Carrara users I know use it because they want to, not because Daz3d told them they have to.

    I was actually planning on buying LightWave before I found Carrara, and was already disappointed in LW without even trying it. I knew that there were things I wanted to use it for that I couldn't do. Carrara solved that issue for me and it still does.

    Trust me, Ringo and I are completely honest in our endeavors - not spinning some sort of lie. We love Carrara and feel that if we keep making cool products for Carrara that we can keep some interest in the software and, perhaps, get some eventual love for it as/if it grows in popularity. 

    Post edited by Dartanbeck on
  • StezzaStezza Posts: 5,949
    Bunyip02 said:
    Stezza said:

    where are these props available in Carrara?

    I can't find them sad

    Hello Stezza, hope your health is back on track.

    The items above are DAZ duf props, Carrara items are some of the plants.

    Checked my zip files for both versions and the props are definately in the DAZ props.

    http://www.daz3d.com/tangy-apple-orchard shows the seperation in the "Whats Included and Features" list.

    Regards, Bunyip

    thanks @Bunyip

    I didn't download the DS version, that would explain it.. thanks, getting betterer and betterer :-)

  • TangoAlphaTangoAlpha Posts: 4,570
    Stezza said:

    where are these props available in Carrara?

    I can't find them sad

    You'll need to pull them from the main .car file for my existing sets. From County Crime Lab onwards you'll find position zeroed props in the browser under Objects/Props/Set. Thanks to P3DO they'll have the same icons as the DS props too.

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  • I get it. Some of us feel betrayed that Carrara (and Bryce, Hexagon, etc.,) aren't getting the love they deserve - I totally understand. I just feel that scorn and negativity towards Daz3d and/or the software itself is unfair. All three of these mentioned apps have been sold off, and Daz3d scored them up - did some developmental upgrades to them for a while, and still keep them available (aka"Alive") to those who wnat/need the software as well as keeping an open door for new users.

    Well-spoken, Dart, as are all of your remarks on this subject.  I've read older threads where you and others have commented at each stage of Carrara's evolution, from 6 to 7 to 8, and then 8.5.  Improvements that Daz implemented have been remarkable, and so easily taken for granted.

    Calling Carrara "dead" - and I've heard others use the same term - is just extreme.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 33,291

    As we say over in the Bryce forum, as long as there is still a bright and vibrant community still using and enjoying using the program then it is nowhere near dead.   As long as we have people taking part and running challenges   it is not dead,   as long as we have long running render threads containing thousands of renders done in the program,  then how can it be even slightly tending towards the possibility of failing. 

     

    Both B & C  came before D, and to my mind they are still leading the way

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 16,779
    edited February 2017

    Thanks - both of you. I certainly didn't mean to sound like I was starting a fight! LOL

    Yeah, chohole, I was just saying... how can we call something 'dead' if we can clearly see such an incredibly healthy community? Different words, of course. It's amazing how both B and C can be used by low-budget filmmakers to create really outstanding CG for their films! When I was in VFX class, many classmates were awed by the stuff I was showing them.

    Taking a look at this thread shows what can be done in Carrara way back when Eovia owned it. Nobody ever took those abilities away from the software.

    ► Classic Carrara - Render Images by Ringo Monfort

    Post edited by Chohole on
  • PhilWPhilW Posts: 5,094

    Such a great example of what can be done! The character and lighting are superb!

  • FifthElementFifthElement Posts: 569
    edited February 2017

    Lol, it is a good work, but everything was modeled and textured in Zbrush and Rhino, only rendered in Carrara, Dudu would not approve cheeky

    Here is one of my old ones:

    Post edited by Chohole on
  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 16,779

    ...and of course, as shown above, our pages are constantly being reminded of how well Carrara can render by our very own FifthElement!!! Check that out!

    Probably modeled in Silo? Doesn't matter. Who really cares which tools we use, right? As long as we have a flow that we enjoy!

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 16,779

    Absolutely amazing, my friend! Just stunning! I love all of your renders!

  • Great info in this thread.  I didn't know the full history of Carrara, Bryce yes but not Carrra.  Or at least back when Corel had Bryce.  I have v5 and used it for years.  Then I got away from 3d design/rendering for a while.  Then a couple of years ago came back into the fold sort of speak, in a big way (bought Carrara, Hexagon, Bryce).  It now makes sense why DAZ has Bryce, Carrara, and Hexagon.  I didn't know in the end they were all owned by the same company before DAZ bought them.

    I also agree that the programs are not dead, underdeveloped yes.  Bryce especially needs a lot of updates and bug fixes.  Not to mention a BETTER export system.  Carrara also could use a little love.  In my case I would LOVE the addition of 3DConnection Space Navigator.  I use it all the time in several 3d programs I use.  Even Hexagon has support for Space Navigator, but why not Carrara?  But they DID listen and gave us in the last update the ablity to scale the UI text, which took the program from unusuable to a wonderous tool for me.  I am still learning Carrara but getting there.  Out of the other packages I have tried Carrara fits me more and how my mind works.  I don't think DAZ has abandoned it, and I suspect we will get another update this year (just a hunch don't hold me to it lol).

  • We will get another another update when pigs fly, we are more likely getting Victoria 8 and Generation 4 this June :D Fingers crossed 

  • VyusurVyusur Posts: 1,970
    edited February 2017

    Lol, it is a good work, but everything was modeled and textured in Zbrush and Rhino, only rendered in Carrara, Dudu would not approve cheeky

    Here is one of my old ones:

    FifthElement, very beautiful! What render engine did you use in Carrara?

    Post edited by Chohole on
  • Just Carrara's native render engine, modeled in Silo 2 smiley

  • VyusurVyusur Posts: 1,970

    Great! I love Carrara's native engine.

  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 11,714

    Great model and render, FifthElement.

  • TGS808TGS808 Posts: 168

    how can we call something 'dead' if we can clearly see such an incredibly healthy community?

    I understand you take offense at the word "dead" when referring to Carrara. Perhaps you'd prefer "unofficially discontinued"? Maybe, "unofficially cancelled"? Yes, there are a handful of people here that still use it but that's pretty much it. At this point it's more of a cult following as Carrara is not used in the real world of professional film or television FX work and hasn't been since long before it was even called Carrara. If you look at the development cycles of any other software you'd come to the conclusion that (even though there has been no "official" word) it seems highly unlikely that after seven years of silence there will be a Carrara beyond v8.5. At this point it should be at v15 or at the very least, v11. If one were processing clues, that would seem indicate that it has probably reached the end of its development cycle. That it has a "bright and vibrant" (albeit very small) community of users is a separate topic. One does not equal the other. 

    Think of Carrara like a Pontiac automobile. They stopped making Pontiacs in 2010 (oddly enough, the last time there was a full update to Carrara) The Pontiac brand doesn't exist anymore. However, there are still people on the road driving Pontiacs. I see them from time to time. There's probably even a core group of Pontiac enthusiasts that get together and compare their classic Firebirds whether online or in person, keeping Pontiac "alive". But there aren't going to be any new Pontiacs made. They've been discontinued. Cancelled. The line is dead. The only difference between Pontiac and Carrara at this point is that Pontiac made an official announcement about the end and Daz (for reasons no one can understand) chooses to remain silent.

    If you don't like the car analogy how about TV shows? Shows like Friends and Seinfeld ended their runs years ago and there aren't going to be any further episodes developed. Sure, they still air reruns every day around the world and people still watch and love those reruns every day. Some even make fan websites. The fandom is alive. The shows are over.

    So, yeah... people here can use Carrara v8.5 forever (or for as long as their future machines allow it) but it seems like that's gonna be it. A small user community (comprised mainly of hobbyists) alive and well, using outdated, discontinued software. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just what it is.

    The same holds true for Bryce.

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 16,779

    Point well made, and reluctantly taken ;)

    You're right. I don't like the word "dead". The other options were much better.

    Some folks might bring their stone to a laser to have it cut, while real men use a chisel, which doesn't need to be updated/upgraded every time someone ha a new idea.

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