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224 S 200 W, Suite #250
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If you know a better way to make bump and spec ( and normal maps ) I think you could profit from it by selling a tutorial to the rest of us.
I am constantly trying to find 'the right way' to make a bump map for my creations, and usually it requires starting with the texture as a base and doing a bunch of filters / layer modes / painting to get it "acceptable" - i use that term loosely because I'm never 100% satisfied.
If you know a better way to make bump and spec ( and normal maps ) I think you could profit from it by selling a tutorial to the rest of us.
I am constantly trying to find 'the right way' to make a bump map for my creations, and usually it requires starting with the texture as a base and doing a bunch of filters / layer modes / painting to get it "acceptable" - i use that term loosely because I'm never 100% satisfied.
I think it will always be a mystery to me how some artists can seem to make pixel-perfect bump maps. Goodness knows I lack the artistic knowledge to pull it off believably, so I can only imagine how others might tackle it. In lieu of a good bump map for many of my figures, I've simply taken them from other similar figures. Pure desaturation simply doesn't work though, since darker areas of the skin, and indeed dark skin such as African, becomes indented. For distance shots bump maps aren't too noticeable, but in the close ups they can make a big difference. The better the map, the better the results.
Anyway, I feel I've hijacked this thread enough so this will be my last word on the matter here. I'm sure there are plenty more cool renders these shaders are helping to create, so let's see those arts! Speaking of which, does anyone know any good surface settings for younger looking skin? I've mostly been trying to copy verbatim what AoA used for the older man, with reasonable results it has to be said, but it's still a ways off.
I'll do another render and post the result unpostworked. Right now they are all in red. I'll have to go hunting through the manual about where to assign a different ID to each .obj.
These aren't UV mapped models, just raw .obj, imported, and the shader applied.
Each object should have a default surface in the shader tab
100% SSS real people exists!!! %-P
Er, well, they are all a flat grey. I haven't assigned any matt zones.
Okay one where they are all red is the render I worked from before. The three on the left with the black cores are the ones where I didn't change the ambient color. The other four I changed the ambient to a darker version of the shader color.
There are some other adjustments as well. The ambient SSS Contribution is at 250%, the Ambient strength is at 100% and the diffuse strenght is at 30%.
The rest was postwork.
The other one, where each is a different color I left the one red one alone and just applied the shader in different colors to the others. No adjustments.
Same lighting. One UE light and one distant light.
Basic SSS applied to character which was rendered & Ps'ed with the water pics still really like the results!
Warning nudity http://fav.me/d66ijud http://fav.me/d66ijtx
I love the floor in that render. It's somewhat unrelated, but how do ppl create reflective floors like that to put their figures on? I've been trying to do one myself but mine always come out looking like mirrors... With no texture visible, OR the texture is there but no reflections. lol.
tried out the toon skin shaders on good old apollo maximus
Hi Vexiphne :)
The reflections are maps:
Cornea - Raiya's Eye Ref / Iris - Bree / Lacrimal - Raiya's Erin / Pupil - Bree / Sclera - Bree
edited
Hi JOdel,
Is that figure available someplace for download or sale? I'm wondering so maybe I can pick it up and see if I can give some tips on how you an get that effect without postwork or adding ambient.
I love the floor in that render. It's somewhat unrelated, but how do ppl create reflective floors like that to put their figures on? I've been trying to do one myself but mine always come out looking like mirrors... With no texture visible, OR the texture is there but no reflections. lol.
Using the DS Default shader, set up your plane with the texture and bump as you want it then turn reflection color to white, reflection strength to 100% then set the index of refraction to something like 1.4. That will give reflections which are stronger with steeper angles. If the reflection is not strong enough then increase the index of refraction. Conversely, lower the IOR for weaker reflection but stay above 1.0.
Great work everyone. I'm so pleased to see everyone putting the shader to use.
No. It's a figure that I built in my 3D modeling class following Adam Watkins's 'Getting Started in 3D with Maya' textbook. I've sent a PM if you want to deal with it. It isn't like I'm likely to use it for anything much.
I have been trying the Tori (http://www.daz3d.com/tori-for-v5) skin in various SSS shaders.
First a little rant. different shaders do seem to put out different amounts of light with similar settings. I have seen some discussion that you need to adjust your lights for the shader. I think that is completely wrong. You are going to be rendering the character skin along with hair, clothes, jewelry, other characters, props and sets. Your character skin needs to render correctly in a scene where everything else renders correctly. I think you need a standard set of lights, perhaps several, and you adjust the character well in those standard lighting conditions.
My standard lights are a 3 point UberArea Light planes. The key like is at 100%. The fill and back light are at 50%. There is a specular only spot light at 30% in the key light. I don't use the UberEnviroment2 light at all.
Edit: seems to have reversed the order i attached the images, but they are labeled.
Tori comes with DAZ material that use the default shader. The material has an ambient color of 198,165,154 with a strength of 20%. This is glow in the dark material. The pinkish skin color you see in the promo renders comes from this ambient setting. With my standard light the Tori skin in blown out (over exposed in places). The first image below shows the default skin render with my standard lights turned down to 80%. Frankly it looks like she has a sunburn or something. I am not trying to match this result.
The second image is a WIP using the UberSurface 2 shader. The following settings were used:
Diffuse Color: 250,255,255 (Lips: 255,245,245)
Diffuse Strength: 80%
Fresnel: Off
Specular Color: 222,255,247
Specular Strength: 20% with strength texture (100% on lips)
Glossiness: 35% (90% on lips)
Specular Sharpness: 0%
Ambient: Off
Reflection: Off
Velvet: Off
Subsurface Color: 255,255,255
Subsurface Strength: 20%
Subsurface Refraction: 1.4
Subsurface Scale: 0.1
Backscatter Boost: 2.00
Subsurface Group: 1
Subsurface Shading Rate: 1.00
Subsurface Scatter Color: 100,60,0
Subsurface Scatter Strength: 1.79
Subsurface Absorption Color: 232,180,0
Subsurface Absorption Strength: 0.14
Translucency: Off
Specular2 Color: 222,255,247
Specular2 Strength: 8% (20% on lips)
Specular2 Roughness: 20% (10% on lips)
Specular2 Sharpness: 0%
The thrid image is with the Age of Armour Subsurface Shader base with the following settings:
Ambient: Off
Diffuse Color: 245,255,252 (Lips 255,245,245)
Pre SSS - Post SSS 1.0
Diffuse Strength: 70%
Reflection: Off
Specular Color: 255,255,255
Glossiness: 35% (90% on lips)
Specular Strength: 20% with strength texture (50% on lips)
Specular2 Color: 255,255,255
Spec2 Glossiness: 35% (90% on lips)
Specular2 Strength: 8% (10% on lips)
Index of Refraction: 1.4
Shading Rate: 16 (default)
Shading Scale: 0.1 (default)
Subsurface Color: 255,255,255
Subsurface Off-On: 1.0
Subsurface Strength: 20%
Absorb Blue: 0.10
Absorb Green: 0.05
Absorb Red: 0.009
Scatter Blue: 1.79
Scatter Green: 1.40
Scatter Red: 1.00
Velvet: Off
The AoA shader seems to produce more light. I need to turn the diffusion strength down to 70% and it may still be a little to bright.
Both the USS2 and AoA results are WIP.
Would be interested in any feedback on how to improve the results.
Thought I'd mix some Aiko shapes and give them a blast with the V5 Nichole skin and the base Subsurface Shader. The eyes are a preset from Project EYEris...
Aha... turns out it was the shading scale. I had lowered it considerably before, but apparently 'scale small' just wasn't quite small enough for some of them, so I manually edited it to reduce it down further. It all looks rather tidy now.
I shall take this newfound knowledge back to my attempt at the chess set render.
That fixed my problem too, thank you. You can clearly see the effect of the shading scale in the bikini strings . . all the bikini parts are in the same group and same scale.
Well for the first part, above... I might have missed what you are referring to but the discussions I've seen so far weren't discussing specifically customizing the lights to the image as that would be wrong as you mentioned, but rather trying to get across the point that the headlamp isn't going to work for trying to do any detailed shader work. One needs good lights, as you have here. And just as importantly, they should be neutral lights, or a core of neutral lights with some other light sets in the group to test under various conditions such as cloudy, sunny, stormy, reddish, bluish... if one wanted to be thorough,, such as creating skins to sell or just good final characters of one's own to use in various settings.
On the part of the settings you have here, they are giving nice results and seem a very nice starting point to work from. It appears you are getting some sss without loosing all of the detail. Try back lighting to see if you get any light through the ears, as that is one of the holy grails for many people... a good skin that allows that amount of translucency through back lit ears. Note, it's not just about the ears, but they serve as an indicator for the rest of the skin if one uses them in that way rather than trying specifically for that effect through whatever means available and ignoring results on other areas.
Yep, that is a great example of an image that people say was 'Photoshopped' in that it had enough airbrush work done on the skin to give it an unreal quality ;)
Touch up artists generally try to avoid that look, but in this case it doesn't look bad. Partially, in the west at least because Asians have a bit of a fantasy aspect about them anyways. In the east probably also (since they use this technique there some) just because they incorporate more fantasy into their day-to-day life in general... their mythology has extended much more into current times... whole discussion unto itself.
Yep, that is a great example of an image that people say was 'Photoshopped' in that it had enough airbrush work done on the skin to give it an unreal quality ;)
Touch up artists generally try to avoid that look, but in this case it doesn't look bad. Partially, in the west at least because Asians have a bit of a fantasy aspect about them anyways. In the east probably also (since they use this technique there some) just because they incorporate more fantasy into their day-to-day life in general... their mythology has extended much more into current times... whole discussion unto itself.
There is real world skin that does look like that though. While the main inspiration for the SSS project was to emulate the look we see in recent 3d toon movies, another was that my friend's daughter has skin just like the photo in zilvergrafix's post. I felt like saying "can we run lasers through your nose to measure the absorption and index of refraction?" LOL!
I agree with you in principal but, maybe unfortunately, that is just how things work. Different math is used to calculate how surfaces and volumes react to light.
Keep in mind that it is also common for photographers to change their lighting to best match their subject. Of course there is makeup which I suppose would correlate to adjusting shaders :)
I did try to ball park the settings but also wanted the shader to be able to do things that weren't previously available such as the different specular models and subsurface which takes back lighting into consideration in the SSS calculation. Not that those specular models are better... just giving more variety in shaders for people to use.
Generally, when people use ambient with the DS default shader, they are simulating the SSS effect or making it so the diffuse angle falloff is less pronounced. Ambient works independently from lights whereas SSS is completely dependent on lights.
The extra brightness you see is probably due to several things. First and easiest to address is that the specular models, especially Specular 2, in the SSS shader tend to have a slower falloff so higher gloss settings are needed then in the DS Default shader to achieve similar results.
The other thing contributing to increased brightness is that both diffuse and SSS are contributing to the overall look rather than just diffuse. In real life, a large portion of the light we see returning from skin is scattered light. It is difficult to know what balance is right for each skin type with out a lot of real world testing and scientific equipment.
The presets like Chicken, Milk, Skin A and B are based on scientifically measurements of real world volumes and are intended to be used with 100% strength, white SSS values. Pre-SSS Diffuse and a shading scale of 0.1 should be used also to match. However there are some things that will be very difficult to get physically correct such as; What is the true diffuse color of skin? What is the correct Reflection IOR for the oil on the surface; Bone blocking and variation of muscle density plays a role too. Lastly are the lights physically correct? If not then the end result is not going to look right with realistic surface settings.
That is a lot to take into consideration and even unbiased renderers have to make some rough assumptions and approximations. My mindset is to forget what is physically correct and choose settings that give the look you want :) This is why there are options like Pre/Post SSS, Reflection strength that goes above 100%, Shading Scale and the SSS color picker.
After re-reading this post I sincerely hope it does not sound like I am ranting or trying to fight what you said Mark. That is not my intent at all. You have a very valid point and I do understand.
I was just taking the opportunity to explain some of the mindset behind the choices as to how to set up the shader. The idea was to give controls that were physically based (within reason) but also other controls so that people could override physics and dial wherever inspiration took them :)
Tip: While I'm on the subject, Specular 1 is probably the best to use in cases where you have strong rim lighting since it has a softer falloff when viewed at glancing angles. Specular 2 and the DS default shader Specular create very sharp horizon lines when the light is pointed toward the camera.
When first using the shader, I was getting bright neon blow out. Without changing my lighting at all, I was able to tweak the shader to something I liked, the shader, not the lights. With a little fiddling, I found a balance between diffuse strength and SSS strength that worked for me, and yeah, the specular also threw me at first, but I adapted and tweaked it as well. I did all of this without changing my lighting. This was on a scene I'd previous set up and test rendered with a different set of shaders and then switched to this new shader.
Love this new SSS base shader. I specially love the effect on the eyes and teeth. See attached.
Congratulations AOA!!!!
Really love the teeth! WOW! Nice and realistic looking!
Wow! Those are great teeth!
Thanks RAMWolff and Age of Armour!
Age of Armour, thanks again for creating these shaders, they are excellent!
Well, well, well, this looks like a nifty addition...
http://www.daz3d.com/new-releases/subsurface-toolbox
*Sigh* I really need to finish organizing and get more into playing with my stuff.
Just figured I'd submit my render as a thank you for all the advice I mined out of this thread.
Especially that dreaded GroupID issue, lol.
Just in case no one thought of recommending it for the less-than-power-daz-users that are likely to stumble in here as I did:
If you are in doubt about which surfaces are in which group
- use the surface selector tool
- right-click any surface
- select the "Select Surfaces with Value..." option
- scroll down through the list until you get to the "GroupID" parameter
- Revel in all of the surfaces of that group getting highlighted for you!
(yellow outline makes it really easy to see what shouldn't be in your group;-))
Oh wow! Serious party been going on here. I've really enjoyed going through this tread. I was very excited about the new update and the new SSS base, but I can't say I've even tried it out yet. Been so busy lately I've had almost no time for fun - have fit in a little Lux though. I just sat down and read through the documentation and am very impressed.
From what I can tell the base isn't a fully-fledged replacement for ubersurface 2, but it will be hard not to want to use it. Anyone have any thoughts on the strengths of the two shader systems?
Phew! finally feel I have something to show.
This is M5 with M4/Giacomo skin texture with the base shader and no tweeks/adjustments to the shader settings. I am very pleased with how the tattoo/body paint has come out.
IMO this is a very useful shader that brings a lot to the table, I just love the Gummy presets, but personally I don't think it will replace Ubersurface 2 at least not for me. This might be because I have been using Uber2 for much longer and therefore know how to get results I'm happy with quickly, whereas I'm still getting my head around the parameters of this shader.
Uber2 also has the second layer which is invaluable to create some effects, this shader is I feel primarily for SSS.