Post Your Renders - #4: A New Hope

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  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,924
    edited December 1969

    Movie poster I made a few years ago for a comp.

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  • GillisgraphicsGillisgraphics Posts: 13
    edited January 2013

    Any suggestions for making it look more "real"? Especially the watery crushed ice/ water drops at the bottom. (I recognize that the top lip of the can needs adjustment also)

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  • VarselVarsel Posts: 574
    edited December 1969

    I'm trying to create a mangrove forest.

    The mangrove tree with roots are actually two trees.
    The root is a upside-down tree without leaves.

    The boat is there just for scale.

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  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 9,040
    edited December 1969

    Any suggestions for making it look more "real"? Especially the watery crushed ice/ water drops at the bottom. (I recognize that the top lip of the can needs adjustment also)


    I think you may need different shaders for the harder ice bits and for the more melted bits. Is the can supposed to surrounded by slushy ice? It looks like there's a lot of refraction going on at the bottom of the can and you can't really see what's causing it.

  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 9,040
    edited December 1969

    Varsel said:
    I'm trying to create a mangrove forest.

    The mangrove tree with roots are actually two trees.
    The root is a upside-down tree without leaves.

    The boat is there just for scale.


    Looks good so far, but don't Mangrove roots extend out into the water more?

  • GillisgraphicsGillisgraphics Posts: 13
    edited December 1969

    Any suggestions for making it look more "real"? Especially the watery crushed ice/ water drops at the bottom. (I recognize that the top lip of the can needs adjustment also)


    I think you may need different shaders for the harder ice bits and for the more melted bits. Is the can supposed to surrounded by slushy ice? It looks like there's a lot of refraction going on at the bottom of the can and you can't really see what's causing it.

    Thank you for your response!

    I was trying for a slushy or liquid ice effect at the bottom, but I do think it isn't working the way I want it to. I had a different shader for the slushy ice originally and it was initially too jarring. I also think the "ice" shape isn't quite right. I also think the caustics are too strong. I will definitely adjust the lighting. Any suggestions for ways to create the liquid ice?

    For whatever it is worth, I am trying to create a blank can that I can apply different beer labels to for client presentations. I just want it to be realistic enough that the non-beer can elements do not distract from the can itself, and presented in an attractive, neutral, "beer-appropriate" environment.

    New render shortly.

  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,924
    edited December 1969

    Any suggestions for making it look more "real"? Especially the watery crushed ice/ water drops at the bottom. (I recognize that the top lip of the can needs adjustment also)

    Maybe try a different camera focal length - eg 80 to 100 - will give less distortion - unless you are going for a 'monumental' effect. Nice render by the way

  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,924
    edited December 1969

    Varsel said:
    I'm trying to create a mangrove forest.

    The mangrove tree with roots are actually two trees.
    The root is a upside-down tree without leaves.

    The boat is there just for scale.

    great trick with the upside down trees - thanks for sharing that - that's invaluable.

  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 9,040
    edited December 1969

    @Headwax, that is one creepy/cool poster! Did you win?

  • GarstorGarstor Posts: 1,411
    edited December 1969

    Been tweaking this scene and trying to use some of the advice offered in this thread.

    The "Sun Light" is now 0% brightness and only there to put a sun behind the cloud. The cloud dome is gone and just 2 volumetric clouds are present (yeah, much faster renders this way).

    Trying EP's advice of multiple distant lights...I have 5 of them above the main mast of the ship. One points straight down, two are angled out on the Z-axis at 21 degrees and the other two are angled on the X-axis at 21 degrees. Their brightness is at 5%.

    What is frustrating me is the Anything Glows "fire" in the stern and main mast lanterns. Sure, there is some light there...but it just doesn't look like real fire. It is just a vertex sphere that I distorted a bit...I haven't tried using the Fire Primitive yet. The brightness is 200% but it just doesn't look that bright...I'm trying to screen-scrape the shader settings but no joy so far...

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  • GarstorGarstor Posts: 1,411
    edited December 1969

    Hmmmm...so the Fire Primitive does not work with Anything Glows. Lesson learned. But my ugly vertex object for Anything Glows still gives off light even when it is invisible. Another lesson learned...

    So, I'll add the Fire Primitives inside the lanterns and make the vertex objects invisible -- while still generating a yellowish light. Hopefully will finally end up with something really nice.

  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,924
    edited December 1969

    @Headwax, that is one creepy/cool poster! Did you win?

    thanks very much evil :)

    ah no, alas I didn't. The judges had no taste! :) It was a comp at talenthouse. I forgot I made it but they wrote to me the other day and asked me to contribute to another movie postcard. They must be lacking entrants? http://www.talenthouse.com/sadie-frost-ben-charles-edwards-animal-charm-create-movie-poster#submissions

    the prizes aren't too bad I think, plus good coverage if you win?

    cheers !

  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,924
    edited January 2013

    Garstor said:
    Hmmmm...so the Fire Primitive does not work with Anything Glows. Lesson learned. But my ugly vertex object for Anything Glows still gives off light even when it is invisible. Another lesson learned...

    So, I'll add the Fire Primitives inside the lanterns and make the vertex objects invisible -- while still generating a yellowish light. Hopefully will finally end up with something really nice.

    Hi Garstor, the image is looking very good. Love that line of trees on the ridgeline.

    Keep in mind some of these things can be (are best?) achived in post. Glow and fog especially. Combing renders really helps - so eg you might do a complete render, then render the ship by itself against an alpha chennel, you combine the two in post and that way you can paint in the fog behind the ship t etc.

    But it's important to work through doing them in Carrara as you are. But it can be frustrating and take an age and also your control is not so fine. I use Ron's Brushes - very good, but for eg fog you could render it in Carrara by itself and then use it in post as a separate layer. Do the same for birds etc.

    Also do you know the technique of masking? It really saves render time because you don't have to re render the whole image if part gets messed up. Basically you stick a vertex plane close to the camers, for this plane set highlight etc to zero in the texture room and have no colour. Make sure it casts and recieves no shadows, Then just erase the polys on the vertex plane that contain the part of the image you need to re render. Keep the plane close to the camera and it won't screw up reflections on your image too much.

    There is also the tech, of using the camera with anything glows - it acts as a kind of fill in flash.

    For your lights - if you are not too sure of what they are effecting just change the colour to something bright like red and you can easily see where the light is falling.

    Also for anytjhing glows I think it defaults to 33 feet or sometjing close which is often useless for large scenes so also keep that in mind?

    Here is my attempt at something similar to your subject from a while ago

    http://andrewfinnie.blogspot.com.au/2011/12/suspending-my-disbelief.html

    cheers from oz 43 degrees here :)

    Post edited by Headwax on
  • GarstorGarstor Posts: 1,411
    edited December 1969

    head wax said:
    Hi Garstor, the image is looking very good. Love that line of trees on the ridgeline.

    Thanks head wax! I think the fire primitive is going to come out really well. Just trying to put a little more orange into the Anything Glows light...

    head wax said:
    Keep in mind some of these things can be (are best?) achived in post. Glow and fog especially. Combing renders really helps - so eg you might do a complete render, then render the ship by itself against an alpha chennel, you combine the two in post and that way you can paint in the fog behind the ship t etc.

    Tricks of the trade that I am still learning. I wish I could be playing with Carrara, PhotoShop and LightWave all day, every day...alas, there are bills to pay. :)

    head wax said:
    But it's important to work through doing them in Carrara as you are. But it can be frustrating and take an age and also your control is not so fine. I use Ron's Brushes...

    It is educational to do it the hard way! I've been curious about those various Ron's Brushes...I figured I didn't have enough PhotoShop savvy to make them worth my while yet.

    head wax said:
    Also do you know the technique of masking? It really saves render time because you don't have to re render the whole image if part gets messed up. Basically you stick a vertex plane close to the camers, for this plane set highlight etc to zero in the texture room and have no colour. Make sure it casts and recieves no shadows, Then just erase the polys on the vertex plane that contain the part of the image you need to re render. Keep the plane close to the camera and it won't screw up reflections on your image too much.

    I first thought you meant PhotoShop masking. I'm not sure I quite follow your explanation...it does sound intriguing.

    For your lights - if you are not too sure of what they are effecting just change the colour to something bright like red and you can easily see where the light is falling.

    Good idea -- I may play with that a bit over the weekend.

    Here is my attempt at something similar to your subject from a while ago

    WOW! Very nice work! I love the parchment effect.

    cheers from oz 43 degrees here :)

    BTW, I shared the news about the extra colours being added to the heat maps down there...even my Texan friends were shocked. I don't think it has ever been that hot here. 43 degrees sounds like a typical Texan summer day. I'd love to get back Down Under but I don't have as many vacation days now as I did with Microsoft. :(

  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,924
    edited December 1969

    Heya

    check out the tut by Tim Payne here for the masking stuff

    http://issuu.com/c3de/docs/c3de-issue-03?viewMode=magazine

    page 86

    it's a tut worth its weight in gold

    cheers ;)

  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 9,040
    edited December 1969

    Garstor, the picture is coming along very nicely! I really like the ocean shader.


    A couple notes: You don't need to use AG for the lantern light. You could just use a bulb light which may be easier to set up. A trick I use for getting a nice hot fire is to use the fire primitive (I always adjust the default colors) in conjunction with a bulb light centered in the fire and set to match the color of the fire. You may want to lower the default distance and also add falloff to suit your scene. I also enable the the 3D light sphere in the bulb's effects tab, and in the editor I set the light sphere to realistic and adjust the diameter, intensity and quality to suit the look I want.


    The fire primitive will cast shadows, so I always disable the cast/receive check boxes for the fire.


    Here's a couple samples where I used the method I outlined above to get different looks. I can try and post a more detailed tutorial tomorrow or Saturday if anybody has any questions.

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  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 9,040
    edited December 1969

    Headwax, I never get tired of the Man with the Bowler Hat images you made. They are super cool.

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,219
    edited December 1969

    19 degrees F here. But that's why I choose to live here. I do like winter.

    Garstor, Love what you're doing there! I am not all that "Anything Glows" savvy. Can you add subtle lens flare to those? I'm sure you can - I think all Carrara lights can do that. Try using a scaled down warm glint, which is only using the halo, and making those colors amongst the warmer range - but you could leave one ring cool as that just helps the effect stand out and behave like a glint.

    Also, just so you know, Distant lights don't need to be placed anywhere special. They cast light in any direction you set them to from everywhere. So if you have a visible shroud (it is popular to use background-textured spheres that surround your scene with an image), you would have to exclude that from what the light affects or you won't get the light. Again... just FYI.

    Really like what you're doing.

    Head Wax, That is some awesome work, man.

    BTW, has anyone seen Koutsuko (can't remember how to spell her name) since the new forum started up? She always had those great Aiko renders. Really miss her around here, don't you?

    Man, everybody's putting some great renders up here. Love the beverage can. I think that the crushed ice on the bottom may have too much reflection? Which may be why it casts the same color as the can. Instead of reflection, when you want a really shiny effect, try leaving those levels quite low - so you still have some. Then crank up the highlight channel (close to white, or 100%) and a fairly low shininess setting (between 0 and 20) to help to make it glisten. Depending on the bump and poly detail, you'll see very different results regarding the shininess setting. 0 allows light to spread as evenly as it can. So increasing this number sharpens up the highlight focus - but larger numbers can totally remove the effect from the image.
    Very cool work.

    Love the Trees. Just a week ago, I was messing with the same idea (using a leafless, upside-down tree for the roots) and have been finding that the plant editor is actually a very powerful tool in its own right. Simply amazing what can be achieved. Gotta say, though... I like what you've done far better than my best attempt so far. It really looks good.

  • The Pencil NeckThe Pencil Neck Posts: 163
    edited December 1969

    One of the tricks I learned in Daz while rendering with Reality was to render each light source separately, then take all the renders into photoshop/gimp as layers, and then mix them using different methods and values.

    I've attached two pictures that were created using the same set of light-by-light renders but mixed differently.

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  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,219
    edited December 1969

    Damn, EP.
    You're good!
    Emersome nice pics!

  • The Pencil NeckThe Pencil Neck Posts: 163
    edited December 1969

    I've been mucking around with an idea for a swamp scene and the idea of upside down trees is AWESOME.

    I've been considering buying Dinoraul's Bald Cypress trees from renderosity because they've got the moss on them but... then I was thinking... couldn't I make some moss with a hair object... I've been thinking with playing with the hair stuff so I could learn how to use it so.... why be a wimp... but DRs trees are awfully cool... hrm.....

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,219
    edited December 1969

    Garstor,
    Back when I got Medusa, they had a supplement for it that had a whole pile of poses that place figures all over the ship, performing different tasks...
    I know you've already spent the lot, but.... :)
    Just sayin'

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,219
    edited December 1969

    One of the tricks I learned in Daz while rendering with Reality was to render each light source separately, then take all the renders into photoshop/gimp as layers, and then mix them using different methods and values.

    I've attached two pictures that were created using the same set of light-by-light renders but mixed differently.

    Very cool
  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,924
    edited December 1969

    Headwax, I never get tired of the Man with the Bowler Hat images you made. They are super cool.

    thanks evil and dartanbeck - you are both very kind :)

  • RoguePilotRoguePilot Posts: 239
    edited December 1969

    Any suggestions for making it look more "real"? Especially the watery crushed ice/ water drops at the bottom. (I recognize that the top lip of the can needs adjustment also)

    The can looks fine. Nice shader.

    The camera angle and focal length is good, probably what you were going for. I suspect you might want to push the perspective more as soon as you get a 'branded' texture on the can, that's an artistic choice though.

    The ice and water drops? You're right to be concerned.

    Most of the water drops on the side of the can look ok but there are particular drops that stand out as 'stuck on' especially that one long streak. It starts at a point and gets bigger. I've just spend a few minutes throwing water at a coke can and rather than trying to explain what happens the best I can suggest is that you try it out yourself. (It's fun too).
    Whatever you're doing to get that effect though, is working well.

    On the table? Is that Ice? If it's water it's too lumpy, if it's ice it's probably too clear and too sparse.

    Throw a few irregular, sharp edged lumps in there and make the shader more opaque, either through refraction with a bump map, absorption, in-scattering or translucency (or all of the above). A touch of white in the colour channel will help too.

    I do like that shader on the can.

  • VarselVarsel Posts: 574
    edited December 1969

    Thanks guys....

    The roots and the water level would depend on the tide, but I see the point. So for believability, I might have to adjust the mud level....

    It's still a WIP.

    Here's a better picture of the trees.
    The tricky part is to get the root and the tree to line up.
    As you can see I haven't quit got it yet on the biggest of them.

    When creating the root

    in the plant editor
    set the trunk length to a low number ( I use 1 )
    set the decay to zero. you don't want the root to taper into the ground. and it's easier to align with the tree.
    the trunk with is dependent on the tree, so create the main tree first, then adjust the width of the root to match the base of the tree.
    It did look like the with of the tree is dependent on the length of the tree, so this was trial and errors.....

    I did also set the gravity setting to 5 up under the tree shape tab.
    This way the branches will stretch up, and after flipping the tree, the roots will stretch down.
    Then under the expert tap, play with the different settings for the branches.

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  • RoguePilotRoguePilot Posts: 239
    edited December 1969

    head wax said:

    Also do you know the technique of masking? It really saves render time because you don't have to re render the whole image if part gets messed up. Basically you stick a vertex plane close to the camers, for this plane set highlight etc to zero in the texture room and have no colour. Make sure it casts and recieves no shadows, Then just erase the polys on the vertex plane that contain the part of the image you need to re render. Keep the plane close to the camera and it won't screw up reflections on your image too much.

    There is also the tech, of using the camera with anything glows - it acts as a kind of fill in flash.

    I have a morphing prop that I have used as a render shield.

    These days though I tend to just duplicate my camera and resize the view window on it to cover the area that I want to re-render.
    You have to change the render dimensions in the render room to more closely match the original size and then it's a little more work to match up in photoshop. It can be quite a bit faster to render than the 'masking technique' depending on the scene and scene settings.

    (Yes Carrara does have a saveable spot render facility, it's just a bit odd to use)

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  • GillisgraphicsGillisgraphics Posts: 13
    edited January 2013

    Thank you all for your feedback. I really appreciate the advice from everyone.

    I think I was over complicating it with the ice so I scaled that back. I also couldn't leave the can alone and rebuilt the droplets. Let me know if you think it is better or worse.

    I also added a fill card so that the darkest side of the can was a tad brighter and the droplets had a nicer reflection.

    By the way, if anyone is interested, the can and the droplets are two instances of the same master object. The metal can (with the label artwork in the future) is one object. In the exact same position, with a second instance of the same master object, I applied a water shader and added the droplets as a displacement map to pop them outside of the can. That way I can adjust master object and change the shape of the can later, and the drops will just pop out of the new shape. :-)

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    Post edited by Gillisgraphics on
  • GarstorGarstor Posts: 1,411
    edited December 1969

    By the way, if anyone is interested, the can and the droplets are two instances of the same master object. The metal can (with the label artwork in the future) is one object. In the exact same position, with a second instance of the same master object, I applied a water shader and added the droplets as a displacement map to pop them outside of the can. That way I can adjust master object and change the shape of the can later, and the drops will just pop out of the new shape. :-)

    Very neat trick. With my unskilled eye, I'd have to say that the can is just about perfect now.

    I think adding a large ice cube or three would be the piece-de-resistance.

  • GillisgraphicsGillisgraphics Posts: 13
    edited December 1969

    Garstor said:
    By the way, if anyone is interested, the can and the droplets are two instances of the same master object. The metal can (with the label artwork in the future) is one object. In the exact same position, with a second instance of the same master object, I applied a water shader and added the droplets as a displacement map to pop them outside of the can. That way I can adjust master object and change the shape of the can later, and the drops will just pop out of the new shape. :-)

    Very neat trick. With my unskilled eye, I'd have to say that the can is just about perfect now.

    I think adding a large ice cube or three would be the piece-de-resistance.
    Thank you Garstor!

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