[Released] IBL Master - Image Based Lighting control for both renderers & a new IBL for 3Delight

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  • barbultbarbult Posts: 13,970
    edited January 2019

    IBL Master doesn't work properly if installed with Daz Connect. After complaints, Daz took down the Daz Connect installer, But if you bought it when it first came out and installed with Daz Connect, uninstall and install with DIM or manually.

    Edit: Also check the documentation for the minimum Daz Studio version that IBL Master works with. Be sure you aren't using a version too old.

    Post edited by barbult on
  • pavsikakyjpavsikakyj Posts: 52
    edited January 2019
    I want to thank all kind people here, who helped me. I reinstalled IBLM manually and it works perfectly (I hate DIM). Render is 2-3 times faster, though still grainy (perhaps because of shaders). I have one more question: is it possible to use mesh lights with IBLM In 3DL?
    Post edited by pavsikakyj on
  • Sven DullahSven Dullah Posts: 4,910
    edited January 2019
    I want to thank all kind people here, who helped me. I reinstalled IBLM manually and it works perfectly (I hate DIM). Render is 2-3 times faster, though still grainy (perhaps because of shaders). I have one more question^ is it possible to use mesh lights with IBLM In 3DL?

    To handle the grain issue you need to increase the IBLM light diffuse samples from default 16 to even 128 or more, depends on the HDRI and light angle. You can try to use progressive rendering to compensate for the increased render times, but note that progressive mode resets the pixelfilter to box 1x1 pixel width, so non progressive will give you the best quality.

    And yes obviously you can use the OmUberarea light shader with IBLM, quick test with the default HDRI:

     

    image

    Just need to crank up light intensity really high;)

    Glad to hear re-installing workedyes

    IBLM+OmArealight.png
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    Post edited by Sven Dullah on
  • pavsikakyjpavsikakyj Posts: 52
    edited February 2019
    Thanks again. I used Omnifreaker's mesh lights and they work fine. Just for the information: with some shaders gamma correction doesn't work good. I prefer to turn it off. Especially when rendering low resolution objects. And I use progressive render because filters make too much distortion. To get less grainy renders I just increase occlusion samples in shaders settings and it works. One more question: is there shadowcather tools in IBLM?
    1111.png
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    Post edited by pavsikakyj on
  • Sven DullahSven Dullah Posts: 4,910
    edited February 2019
    Thanks again. I used Omnifreaker's mesh lights and they work fine. Just for the information: with some shaders gamma correction doesn't work good. I prefer to turn it off. Especially when rendering low resolution objects. And I use progressive render because filters make too much distortion. To get less grainy renders I just increase occlusion samples in shaders settings and it works. One more question: is there shadowcather tools in IBLM?

    There is the IBLM groundplane with a shadowcatcher applied to it, it loads with the IBLM, you should find it in the scene tab. You can save the shadowcatcher shader to apply it to other objects, if needed.

    Did you use too wide a  pixel width for the filter? Try gaussian with 2x2 width!

    Post edited by Sven Dullah on
  • pavsikakyjpavsikakyj Posts: 52
    edited February 2019
    Thanks! Last question for today. In previous post you wrote that it is possible to create HDRI by yourself to light inner spaces. Is there detailed manual or FAQ? I want to get UberEnvironment effect, when shadows are casted more evenly.
    Post edited by pavsikakyj on
  • Sven DullahSven Dullah Posts: 4,910
    edited February 2019

    I have used GIMP to create a number of maps for that purpose. They need to be in 2x1 pixel ratio (4000x2000 or 8000x4000 etc) If you hide the env. sphere you don't need a large map as it won't be seen anyway. Try creating a smooth gradient with dark at the bottom to white at the top. Grayscale will be sufficient as you can tint it in the IBLM light color slot. Use RGB space even if the map is desaturated. Gray scale will be only 256 colors. Jpeg will work if you just use it for ambient occlusion. If you want true HDRI you need to save it as a 16 Bit .hdr. That can be done in the latest update of GIMP, which I don't have, so can't help with the details. Experiment;) And note, for indoors, you need to decrease trace distance for the IBLM light, or else the walls will block the light from the dome. IIRC the default is 350, try 200 and go from there. Also if you use jpeg:s you need to up the diffuse samples, because it's a low definition range image, or you will have grain issues. With this method you will need additional lights to cast direct light.

    Edit: You can use an outdoor overcast HDRI indoors if you decrease trace depth, if you can find the right one, it will cast high range diffuse light with no sharp shadows. Check out HDRI Haven, lots of high quality HDRIs for both outdoor and indoor use;)

    Post edited by Sven Dullah on
  • Hi again and thank you for great support! I succeeded much with IBLM. There is only one thing I fail to get. When I render inside totally closed room and set trace distance lower than 350 (the default one), there are no shadows on the walls from different objects and figures. It disappoints me a bit, because I have to render room without ceiling to get natural look, then render ceiling itself and then join them in Photoshop. Is there some magic to fix it? Or I’ll have to make it in two steps all the way?
  • Sven DullahSven Dullah Posts: 4,910
    edited February 2019
    Hi again and thank you for great support! I succeeded much with IBLM. There is only one thing I fail to get. When I render inside totally closed room and set trace distance lower than 350 (the default one), there are no shadows on the walls from different objects and figures. It disappoints me a bit, because I have to render room without ceiling to get natural look, then render ceiling itself and then join them in Photoshop. Is there some magic to fix it? Or I’ll have to make it in two steps all the way?

    Well, the thing is, IBLM is not meant to be used this way, lowering trace depth to make outdoor HDRIs work inside an enclosed environment is kind of a cheat:) But it can be done if you just adjust the trace depth enough to get light into the room. But it can be tricky. In this example I used a grayscale gradient jpg, as I described in my last post, set trace depth to 300, removed limits for light intensity scale and set it to 200, set diffuse samples to 256, hid the environment sphere and loaded a 3DL skydome for the background. If you use additional lights (spotlights or other) you can probably lower the IBLM light intensity to get the right amount of ambient light. But I'm not sure why you don't get shadows, unless you lowered trace depth too much, as you can see the props in this scene cast shadows. So try different trace depth settings, the right amount varies depending on the environment you use. Hope you can get it to work;)

    image

    IBLM jpg+3DL skydome.png
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    Post edited by Sven Dullah on
  • I will do as you described! Thank you!
  • lorraineopualorraineopua Posts: 258
    edited March 18

    I have a problem with IBL Master. I don't want to use the provided shadow catcher, I want the shadows to fall on the props in my scene. The problem is when I use the shadow catcher shader, it knocks out the diffuse colour, opacity and tiling of the original surface and in the case of the tiling, there is no way to get it back that I can see. A solution would be greatly appreciated as I'm over the month for returning the product and with no tiling it will sit, unwanted and unloved, in my library.

     

    Cheers

    Lorraine

     

    edit: I'm using it in 3dl

    Post edited by lorraineopua on
  • QuasarQuasar Posts: 316

    I have a problem with IBL Master. I don't want to use the provided shadow catcher, I want the shadows to fall on the props in my scene. The problem is when I use the shadow catcher shader, it knocks out the diffuse colour, opacity and tiling of the original surface and in the case of the tiling, there is no way to get it back that I can see. A solution would be greatly appreciated as I'm over the month for returning the product and with no tiling it will sit, unwanted and unloved, in my library.

     

    Cheers

    Lorraine

    What render engine are you using? Iray or 3Delight? There shouldn't be a need to use a shadow catcher shader to get a shadow on the objects that are in the scene. The shadows will be rendered on any object that is in the shadow area.

  • lorraineopualorraineopua Posts: 258

    Hi Quasar, and thanks for the response. I'm using 3dl, it's why I bought the product in the first place. And no, there are no shadows falling on anything unless the shadow catcher prop is used or the shadow catcher shader is deployed. And then I lose the tiling. 
     

    Cheers

    Lorraine

    Quasar said:

    I have a problem with IBL Master. I don't want to use the provided shadow catcher, I want the shadows to fall on the props in my scene. The problem is when I use the shadow catcher shader, it knocks out the diffuse colour, opacity and tiling of the original surface and in the case of the tiling, there is no way to get it back that I can see. A solution would be greatly appreciated as I'm over the month for returning the product and with no tiling it will sit, unwanted and unloved, in my library.

     

    Cheers

    Lorraine

    What render engine are you using? Iray or 3Delight? There shouldn't be a need to use a shadow catcher shader to get a shadow on the objects that are in the scene. The shadows will be rendered on any object that is in the shadow area.

     

  • GafftheHorseGafftheHorse Posts: 469
    edited March 18

    Hi Quasar, and thanks for the response. I'm using 3dl, it's why I bought the product in the first place. And no, there are no shadows falling on anything unless the shadow catcher prop is used or the shadow catcher shader is deployed. And then I lose the tiling. 
     

    Cheers

    Lorraine

    Quasar said:

    I have a problem with IBL Master. I don't want to use the provided shadow catcher, I want the shadows to fall on the props in my scene. The problem is when I use the shadow catcher shader, it knocks out the diffuse colour, opacity and tiling of the original surface and in the case of the tiling, there is no way to get it back that I can see. A solution would be greatly appreciated as I'm over the month for returning the product and with no tiling it will sit, unwanted and unloved, in my library.

     

    Cheers

    Lorraine

    What render engine are you using? Iray or 3Delight? There shouldn't be a need to use a shadow catcher shader to get a shadow on the objects that are in the scene. The shadows will be rendered on any object that is in the shadow area.

     

    You need the IBMLGroundplane (in the IBL Master prop group) in order to catch shadows, or any other ground plane. There's no geometry in an HDRI for shadows to be caught without it.

    If it's not big enough for your 'stage', you could scale it up.

    I don't understand your references to tiling/losing tiling.

    Perhaps you could post a small image.

    Post edited by GafftheHorse on
  • QuasarQuasar Posts: 316

    Yeah, a render of a scene with the objects would be helpful. Keep the original textures on them.

  • lorraineopualorraineopua Posts: 258

    Thanks for the responses, I appreciate it. 
     

    I don't use Iray, never have so I don't know if tiling is a thing in it. It's part of the surface tab in 3dl, and all shaders use it except the IBL shadow catcher shader. This shader is designed to make ANYTHING in a scene catch shadows. Unfortunately, when it is applied it removes whatever diffuse colour, opacity, and x and z tiling and offset that one has set up before applying the shader. Most of the sliders disappear and one of them is tiling. So I can reset diffuse colour, I can reset opacity, but I cannot reset tiling or tiling offset. I can't do a render of the problem today or for the next few days, it's too cloudy to turn on the desktop. But I think my explanation is enough to get the point across. I want to know if there's any way to regain the tiling ability when using the shadow catcher shader. If there is not this product is a lemon, and one I can't return. 
     

    cheers

    Lorraine 

  • GafftheHorseGafftheHorse Posts: 469

    Thanks for the responses, I appreciate it. 
     

    I don't use Iray, never have so I don't know if tiling is a thing in it. It's part of the surface tab in 3dl, and all shaders use it except the IBL shadow catcher shader. This shader is designed to make ANYTHING in a scene catch shadows. Unfortunately, when it is applied it removes whatever diffuse colour, opacity, and x and z tiling and offset that one has set up before applying the shader. Most of the sliders disappear and one of them is tiling. So I can reset diffuse colour, I can reset opacity, but I cannot reset tiling or tiling offset. I can't do a render of the problem today or for the next few days, it's too cloudy to turn on the desktop. But I think my explanation is enough to get the point across. I want to know if there's any way to regain the tiling ability when using the shadow catcher shader. If there is not this product is a lemon, and one I can't return. 
     

    cheers

    Lorraine 

    Without an image, I don't have a clue what you are trying to achieve - a mostly complete render or some partial to be processed with copious postwork in a pain program.

    I'm not even sure what shadow catcher shader you are using

    • one bundled with Daz
    • One bought from the store (like pwcatch)
    • Some freebie from Sharecg or elsewhere (there might be problems with using an old Daz Studio 3 shader).

    A shadow catcher shader probably doesn't have a tiling feature, that's why it's removed when you apply Shadow Catcher to a surface. If you look at the IBMLGroundPlane in surfaces, there aren't a lot of options or sliders, and none for tiling.

    I've not had much cause to use shadow catchers, I find if you put a primitive, floor or some prop below another, as long as the light has 'shadows on', there'll be shadows.

    Put a plane primitive underneath the shadowcatcher surface - the shadow catcher should be (largely) transparent, and add your desired tiled and whatnot shader to that instead.

    But the IBMLGroundPlane that loads with IBL Master already has a ground shader applied.

    Attached images

    1st contains IBL Master and default ruins HDRI with 3DLENVSPHERE invisibled (by closing the 'eye' in the Scene tab.

    2nd contains as above with a plane primitive (4 metres, 120  divisions) added with a tiled pattern applied.

    Rendered in Daz Studio 4.12 3Delight with Gamma Correction on (2.2).

    droid_shadow_catch_3dl.png
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    droid_shadow_catch_3dl_2.png
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  • lorraineopualorraineopua Posts: 258

    THE ONE THAT CAME WITH IBL MASTER!

     

    Sorry for shouting. 

  • lorraineopualorraineopua Posts: 258
    edited March 20

    Had a short patch of sunshine so I did some rendering. It's worse than I thought.

    1st render 3DL shader

    2nd screenshot 3dl surface sliders

    3rd screenshot IBL Shadow Catcher Shader surface sliders

    4th screenshot the culprit

     

    It knocks out nearly everything. I'm going to report a bug.

     

    3dl shader.jpg
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    3dl shader sliders.jpg
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    ibl shadow catcher slider.jpg
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    IBL MShadow Catcher.JPG
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    Post edited by lorraineopua on
  • lorraineopualorraineopua Posts: 258

    Please ignore the scene renders, the sky was clouding over and I was in too much of a rush, and buggered it up. However, the sliders tell the story. This product is sold with a shader that will make any prop a shadow catcher but only at the expense of every surface variable. 

  • GafftheHorseGafftheHorse Posts: 469
    edited March 20

    Please ignore the scene renders, the sky was clouding over and I was in too much of a rush, and buggered it up. However, the sliders tell the story. This product is sold with a shader that will make any prop a shadow catcher but only at the expense of every surface variable. 

    News to me.

    I've never used it, didn't even know it was included. It's also under Shader builder, which I've avoided using as there's not much helpful info about it.

    A shadow catcher just catches shadows, having a tile option makes no sense as it'd then be trying to tile the cast shadow presumably.

    You could have two copies of whatever prop, one with the shadow catcher applied, and the second, scaled +1% smaller (might need a little more) and therefore 'inside' the shadow catcher prop with whatever tiled shader you wanted on it, it should be visible through the catcher prop.

    I just located it and tried it out on a cube, it just came out black - the shader might need to be compiled on your system to work - I had similar results with another old shader set - black on application until I ran the shader compilation program (bundled with 3Delight with daz) - but those were .sdl files in the Daz program dir - don't think the IBLM needs to put anything anywhere but in content.

    You could select the surface of the IBLMGroundPlane (surfaces tab) and copy then paste to selected surface of the object (surface tab) you want it on. I got a vaiable looking result on a cube - but I really don't know what you are trying achieve so no idea if'it'll help.

    Post edited by GafftheHorse on
  • lorraineopualorraineopua Posts: 258

    Some more sunshine so a render 1/ without 2/with ibl master included shadow catcher shader

    ibl without included shadow catcher shader.jpg
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    ibl with included shadow catcher shader.jpg
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  • GoneGone Posts: 816

    I believe you are misunderstanding how a shadow catcher works.

    Notice that, when IBLM is loaded, there is a semi-transparent ground plane. When you render, that ground plane is rendered invisible with only the shadows remaining. If you apply the shader to any surface, it will behave the same way - it will render invisible and leave only the shadows. That's what is happening in your second image.

    Objects in a scene will automatically receive shadows as long as the "receive shadows" switch is on (which is the default). Your first image does have shadows - they are just weak and don't show up very well on the dark ground. To get darker shadows, you need more light - not a shadow catcher.

  • lorraineopualorraineopua Posts: 258
    edited March 20

    Thank you for your response, Gone. It is indeed possible that I am misunderstanding what a shadow catcher is. I don't think I am misunderstanding what the shadow catcher SHADER is. As per the product page

    • IBLMShadowCatcher Shader
      • Apply to any object to make it a shadow catcher for IBLM Light.

    That is, by the way, the only mention of the shader. It is not in the user manual, indeed as you have read, some do not even know it exists on their own computer.

    But I did some more renders using a primitive plane and I've discovered you are half right, Gone, there are indeed shadows in the render with no shader applied. I ramped up the shadow strength in the iblm light which made them very obvious. But when I applied the shader to the plane, it lost most of its surface variables but was not invisible. Indeed, if you were trying to make a prop catch shadows, you wouldn't want it to be. The shadow is much more refined however. So now I'm asking myself is the shader even necessary, if not why is it there, and why isn't it mentioned in the user manual? I shall persevere with this conundrum tomorrow.

    And PS where do i find the 'receive shadows' in 3dl? I've gone on a hunt but I can't find it.

    no shader 2.jpg
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    shader 2.jpg
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    Post edited by lorraineopua on
  • UthgardUthgard Posts: 537

    A shadow catcher is not a term exclusive to this product; it is, indeed, something meant to be invisible yet catch shadows projected upon it. The main use of such a thing is to fake realistic shadows over photographs, such as, for instance, turning a sofa prop into a shadow catcher (by applying the shader to its surfaces) so that a realistic shadow is seen over a sofa in a background photo as the prop remains invisible. The product is not malfunctioning, it is doing exactly what it states it should do, and 3delight is more than capable of having correct shadows without any special shader. Gone is not half-right; he is precisely the right amount of right and giving you good advice

  • lorraineopualorraineopua Posts: 258
    edited March 20

    As I said, I shall persevere with this conundrum. 

    Post edited by lorraineopua on
  • GoneGone Posts: 816

    Sorry about that. The switch is usually called "Accept Shadows" and it doesn't exist in the default shader. It is in the AoA and Omni shaders.

    IBLM is an environment sphere that is intended to provide 360 degrees of lighting via an HDRI map to give a more realistic lighting environment to the scene without having to add dozens of light sources. In the case of IBLM, the sphere is 200 meters in diameter with the world centre (0,0,0) at the centre of the sphere. This means that any object place at the world centre (default load position) will be 100 meters above the ground texture provided by the HDRI map.

    Attached are 2 images, one has the shadow catcher ground plane turned off while the other has the plane turned on. As you can see, the cube is being shadowed regardless of whether the shadow catcher is on or off. The ground plane shadow catcher is there to make the object appear to be sitting on a surface even though that surface texture is 100 meters from the object.

    The reason the shadow catcher shader was provided was so the ground plane can do its work. That's why it isn't discussed in the manual. Yes, you can apply it to other objects - but it will do the same thing as it does to the ground plane. Uthgard gave one example of another use. It can also be used on a vertical plane primitive to catch shadows on an HDRI wall as another example.

    Bottom line is that the shadow catcher in IBLM is only useful in HDRI environments to make your objects appear to be interacting with texture maps applied to the sphere.

    IBLMcatcherOFF.jpg
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    IBLMcatcherON.jpg
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  • QuasarQuasar Posts: 316

    To get darker shadows using IBL Master, you need a darker HDR image with a bright spot on only one side. That would give you a more defined shadow that wouldn't be washed out by the light coming from other directions.

  • lorraineopualorraineopua Posts: 258

    By jove, I think she's got it!

    @Gone thank you. Thank you so much. I understood what you were telling me in the end and the fact you didn't treat me like a dumbarse, even though I was a dumbarse, is much appreciated. I assumed stuff and assumptions are the mothers of cockups. I've spent the last few hours pushing sliders around and seeing what affects what and I've come to the conclusion that I'm too old for this, this dog cannot be taught new tricks and I shall retire back to the known and stick in my lane. I wasted a lot of sunshine and people's time on this the last two days, time to get back to world building. Thanks once again.

    @quasar this is one of the things that baffles me about ibl. In real life, if there's a blue sky with a thumping big sun in it, there are dark shadows everywhere you look, I'm looking at some right now. That this doesn't happen in ibl makes my head hurt. I shall stick with making that thumping big sun the old way. Thanks for the advice, I did try to follow it but got sick of all the hair on the floor surrounding my chair.

  • UthgardUthgard Posts: 537

    The thing about sharp shadows and IBL is that when you render you are doing it through a virtual camera, not a virtual "eyeball" (it took me an embarrassingly long time to understand this concept). Our eyesight, by design, adapts to different conditions and light contrast in a way that cameras do not, and our brains process visual stimuli in very interesting (and, for a certain definition of the word, unrealistic) manners which, while we are completely unaware of, greatly change the way the world looks to us. It is a fascinating subject, but what it comes down to is that to make a render look like something we see in real life, we need to resort to all sorts of trickery. IBL, by its very nature, will flood your scene with light from many different angles, which will result in shadows that are far softer than what comes out of a spotlight, but IBL Master includes some lights (the "light bosts") that are easy to position (through the "light targets" in the scene tab) in a way that reinforces the main sources of light in the image that should help you achieve sharper shadows and contrasts. Also, IBL has some very important advantages that you should be aware of: it gives the scene a more cohesive feeling, and the reflections generated by the image add a lot to the verisimilitude of the finished render, as well as giving you a solid starting point before needing to add any lights to the scene (indeed, a lot of Iray renders in the gallery are only lit by IBL). Don't give up on it as a concept, I do believe your main problem has been trying to overthink things, but try to approach this in a more playful manner and you will get the hang of it in no time.

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