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Sorry to dig this up, but, I just bought UberSurface 2 and can find nothing that really tells me how to use it, well, not in a way I can understand anyway!
Newer G2 textures are fine with the AoA shader, but, older ones, like Hunk and Eli by Mec4D aren't and Catharina only used the Daz default shaders for them. I've done what I can with UberSurface but the results aren't quite what I've been looking for. UberSurface 2, judging by your renders, could be the thing I need to really make what are otherwise great textures really cook.
Is there any chance at all you could tell us step by step what you did in your renders in this thread? It really would be a help, otherwise I will have wasted $19.95!
CHEERS!
I have made a start on writing up a Uber Surface Tutorial and I will have a new PC soon to aide in the making of but it won't be finished any time soon. It won't have a great deal of info on Human Skin as IMHO the AOA shader does it so much better. You can use AOA on old skin sets in DS4.5+.
US2 is about so much more than human skin so again in my opinion it won't be a waste of money.
I can try to help with specific direct questions at this time. As for a step by step well that is a few weeks work there in itself. ;)
Sounds cool,
I think you should still cover human skin, I tried using the AoA shader on older skins and they looked dire! The older textures just weren't designed with that kind of shader in mind. US2 is indeed about more than skin and wasn't a waste of money, but, there isn't a decent written tutorial out there with proper examples done inside DS that we can follow.
I'll read whatever you come up with with great interest and don't worry, I'll definitely ask questions
You do what you can when you can and I look forward to seeing it
CHEERS!
PS (There are plenty of sales on now, if you want an 'off the shelf' PC that is. A few folk I know have built theirs out of components and have got some pretty mean systems. You might even be able to score some deals there too. It pays to shop around. Think about what 'you' want and not what others may have you think you want.)
Hi Szark,in answer to your first post and question, I think you did a fantastic job on that character, love the detail and the realism of his skin. I would be really interested in this sort of tutorial, ANYTHING explaining how to use HSS, US and US2 would be very welcomed, and how to do the other things you mentioned - fresnel and refraction and IOR - it would be fantastic to understand what these are and how to apply them most efficiently.
As to worrying whether you are good enough to write a tutorial on this subject, I believe that if you have the knowledge to understand how to do something, then there you go! There are many teachers and instructors who aren't professionals at DOING what they teach, but they are good at imparting the way of it to others. I think you should go for it! :)
After reading your reply saying AOA was the way to go for skin, I was wondering, is there a tutorial on how to do that available? I tried most of the afternoon to get good results on an older skin with AOA and just couldn't get anywhere. (I have both AOA and the Toolkit). AOA has presets for Toon skin, but I rarely ever render toons and would prefer to have the skin look as real as possible. Thanks for any advice, hope to see your tutorial soon! -Cathy
AoA does actually include a tutorial with his shader, it'll be in the Read Me's folder in DS when you install it.
CHEERS!
Thanks Rogerbee I have a PC ordered, should be here soon.
This next statement is born from what I have seen and my understanding of how it works. I have not tested the AOA SSS Shader base at all, that will change soon. Why do I think AOA is better? Well because how it reads the whole mesh when doing SSS calculations. Example getting the glowing ears with Uber Surface is doable but difficult and a cheat at best. AOA uses the actual thickness of the mesh, not the outer skin of the mesh but the distance between front and back. AoA also gives more effective and realistic translucency effects for thicker meshes than Uber Surface. I will say that the Absorption and Scattering settings in the AoA shader seem more advanced but hard to set up given it is split into RGB channels. This can be hard to get the head around but does give more control. Understanding how certain surfaces can absorb certain wave lengths of light, red, blue, green etc and what colour the light is that gets scattered can help with this.
I disagree with what you said about AOA and older skin sets, there are no differences in how the skins sets are made then and now. The documentation for AOA is so much better and almost uses the same settings as US. I believe what I am saying so much as soon as I get a new PC I will put my money where my mouth is. LOL
What matters is to understand that no one set of settings will work for every skin set of metal surface etc and lighting rigs. I have found I could use fewer lights when I used Uber Surface with Ray Traced reflections (provided I add something to reflect). I test with a 3 point (spot) light set up with UE2 using Indirect Lighting with soft shadows and some adjustments to the UE2 settings. The other part of the equation is the mesh that the model is made of. Nothing in nature has 100% sharp angles so any mesh that has 100% sharp angles won’t look as good as when the edges have been beveled.
Once I get the Uber Surface tutorial complete I will start on US2 just covering the differences.
Here is a brief overview of US1 and some US2 SSS settings.
Diffuse Colour; for skin saturated with lowering the red somewhat so the SSS will show through.
Diffuse Strength; lower as you increase SSS. I normally start with 70 - 80% strength. Some argue that Diffuse Strength and SSS Strength should equal 100%. How correct that is I am still unsure of.
Diffuse Roughness: 0.80 for skin. Roughness; lower values spreads the diffuse light out more like a matte surface. For glossy surfaces increasing the roughness makes the diffuse light tighter as shown here http://www.omnifreaker.com/index.php?title=UberSurface2 For me this seems counter intuitive talking about increasing roughness for glossy surfaces. :)
Trace Displacement; is used for telling the raytraced effects, shadows, reflections, refraction, SSS etc to follow the displacement maps as it alters the mesh in render so these effects have to be calculated. Leaving this off the ray trace calculations will ignore the displacement mapping effects.
Specular:
Glossiness works in reverse of the DS Default shader. If the DS Default is set to 80% Glossiness then the equivalent in Uber Surface would be 20%.
Anisotropic Specular; Not needed for human skin. This is when a highlight is spread across a surface like on Metal. With the Default shader, highlights will appear as a round dot Anisotropic spreads this dot out in either the U or V direction. U and V corresponding to the UV map of the object. U = Sideways V = Up and down. So the quality of the maps and uvmapping is key for this effect to work correctly.
In US1 Spec 2 Anisotropic direction is governed by what Spec 1 is set to. I am not sure if this is how the shader was made or a bug. I will have to check to see if this is the case. I am not sure about US 2 if the SPec 2 channel on Layer 2 makes it a separate anisotropic control independent of what Spec 1 is set to. Another thing in my notes the check.
Fresnel; this is a royal PITA as the settings are arbitrary meaning they don't correspond with real word maths. Trial and error seems to work best. LOL Best to test this yourself on a Sphere, in DS, too see how changing the settings effects the rendered effect.
Reflection blur is great. It seems to work like this the closer the reflection is to the source the crisper the reflection is and progressively gets blurrier the further the source is from the reflection.
Velvet It is a personal choice that I don't use Velvet on Human skin but it can come in handy to enhance rim lighting. :)
SSS Scale; is the distance where the SSS effect starts. Human skin being thin will generally make this setting lower. DS measurements are metric and in this case 1.00 = 1 cm. So a SSS Scale of 0.20 - 0.50 might be a good place to start.
SSS Shading Rate; Close to camera keep the setting low 2.00 – 1.00 the further away from the cam, the higher this can go.
US1 SSS Colour red/brown for human skin
US2 ONLY SSS Scatter; colour red/brown but you may have to mess with Diffuse colour so the SSS shows. The Strength however I am still unsure what value this represents, whether it is depth I will have to check.
US2 ONLY SSS Absorption Colour; this is normally a yellowish colour due to how light interacts with red blood cells. The Strength however I am still unsure what value this represents, whether it is depth I will have to check.
Translucency is best used for thin objects like paper and cloth etc and will not work that well for thicker meshes like a human figure.
Lastly I wouldn't recommend this if you have a low powered computer but given we have oily skin, generally speaking and the properties of the oil make our skin slightly reflective hence why we have highlights. So in theory you could use a small amount of reflection but since we have control over specular separately in 3Delight I don't see the pay off with using reflection too.
Cathy
Refraction is the same as the DS Default Shader apart from Uber Surface doesn't have an IOR Strength control. There are plenty of sites that list IOR (Index of Refraction) values of many surfaces. http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/index.php/t-513458.html
Now as to setting Refraction and SSS refraction to the same settings I have not noticed any difference. But I have been using the main Refraction setting on just about every surface when I have been testing.
As for Layer 2 of Uber Surface 2 well that is another few hours work. I will say quickly if you want to use aspects of Layer 2 like Spec 2 or a different displacement map the turn on Layer 2 and turn Diffuse Strength to 0%. If you turn off Diffuse 2 entirely then the surface will render black. Then set the Layer blend Mode to ADD.
That's brilliant, and so informative,
This is exactly the kind of thing we've been looking for! The full tutorial will definitely be recommended reading and I look forward to seeing it.
CHEERS!
PS (I wouldn't mind knowing the specs of this new PC, then I know what to look out for if I'm ever in a position to get my own.)
I had to go for a lower speced machine that I was aiming for, given the desperate nature of the situation. I mentioned my new PC in my render thread http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/2765/P300/#509050
Pretty decent set up. My HP laptop has a quad core i5, 6gb RAM, an integrated Intel and AMD Radeon cards (with switchable graphics) and a 600gb HDD. They are decent specs, but, on reflection, I should have got a PC with those specs as in a laptop there are definite cooling issues and that's even with a cooling stand. PC's seem to be much more upgradeable than laptops, and with that in mind, my next machine will definitely be a PC.
CHEERS!
I will let you know how I get on with it after some extensive testing.
have you seen this http://www.daz3d.com/new-releases/subsurface-shader-basics I will be getting this myself. Many aspects apply to Uber Surface too btw. But I still think anything to do with SSS should be done with AOA SSS shader base.
Yeah,
I have seen that, but, video tutorials aren't always that easy to follow. You have to pause it at just the right bit when you have DS open and are trying to follow it. With written tutorials you can follow them at your own pace and are better able to take in all the information.
To my mind, to make the best use of AoA shaders, you need the AoA lights, and to make the best of Omnifreaker shaders you need Omnifreaker lights. As of yet, AoA lights don't come bundled with DS, yet Omnifreaker's do.
CHEERS!
Oh I am not arguing the point Rogerbee I just thought it might be helpful.
No worries,
I'd still like to see you write down what you know, from what I've read so far we could really learn a lot from you.
CHEERS!
Thanks Rogerbee and flattery will get you everywhere. ;)
I have been testing Uber Surface for over 4 solid weeks just on Metals and Fabrics and I am now at a stage where I can do the write up in plain English. The problem is that I haven't had a good education, I am dyslexic and find reading hard. So when I have to read scientific papers about certain things I have to Google a lot of words to get their meaning and back to the paper to reread that section and so on. Then I have to convert all that jargon in to plain English. Not an easy task but as I said I have started and it is progressing nicely.
At the same time I have been putting Uber Surface 2 through some testing to see the differences in the two. Which will be a an additional tutorial, call it part 2. :)
You're doing really well so far,
I'm dyspraxic and can't really follow fast moving information, like video tutorials, while I'm busy processing one bit, they've moved onto the next. Also, my co-ordination isn't fast enough to click to pause at the right moment either! I can read really well though, and can follow things at my own speed and take it all in. I tend to remember visual things after they've happened. It's great with movies as I see new things each time I watch them.
CHEERS!
I prefer vids as I download them, file them properly for easy referencing later and when I am watching I pay note to the time code, pause, rewind, play, pause rewind etc etc.
I am a see monkey do type of person. I see how to do something once I can then go and do it on my own. Like you I want understanding more than just been shown how to do something so I am trying to find a balance between the two.
If there's any info, be it on here or as a .pdf, I'll either cut and paste the info into a word document, or have the .pdt at the page I'm interested in. This is why written stuff like yours is so important to me as I can access it whenever I need to and if I print it out, I don't even need to have my computer on to read up on it.
CHEERS!
I'm with Roger. I don't care for video tutorials. Videos are nice for showing things and generating interest. I don't find them as useful for learning, especially if I'm going to want to reference the material later.
Reasons I dislike them...
1. I have to accept the information at the pace that the presenter offers it. If it is too fast I may miss things (I know I can re-wind and play it again, but my patience for that is limited). If it is too slow, I get bored and may miss the "good stuff". And sometimes language and accents can make it difficult to understand what is being said.
2. Video tutorials tend to be "raw" information. It is rare that someone who makes a video tutorial goes back and edits it (or even better re-shoots parts). Proofreading / revising just doesn't seem to happen as much as with written material. And if a "student" points out a flaw in the video tutorial, it is even more rare that the author goes back and revises.
3. They are hard to refer to as reference material. Needing to remember that the discussion of AO settings occurs at 6:34 in the video is a pain. Whereas referring to "Section 6.3" of a written tutorial is much easier. If the tutorial is well put together, you can even bookmark directly to that part if you expect to use it often.
4. I can't always watch a video. For instance if I'm at work, or sitting next to my wife on the couch, playing a video / audio presentation is too disrupting. Whereas I can read things pretty much any time I choose to.
Videos have uses for me, though. Times I do like them...
1. When the video is very focused on single topics. Making it short and to the point.
2. When describing the topic with words and images (screenshots, examples, etc.) can't convey the information as well as seeing it occur
3. When the presenter considers pace, ennunciation, etc. when they make the video, keeping their audience in mind.
Well have no fear I will be sticking to PDF's.
On the subject of AOA's SSS Shader Vid I just watched it and found it to be one of the best tutorials I have seen in a long day time. :) Seriously good information and almost all of it will translate to Uber Surface no problem. But I do realise my level of knowledge allowed me to see what can be translated across. But how Will explains whilst using graphical references made it so much easier to understand. I even learnt a few things myself, mainly about AOA's shader base. ;)
One thing I did find that Ubersurface is really good at is reflective surfaces, I followed this eye tutorial by Spyro:
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/6376/P75
Now my eyes look amazing!
CHEERS!
Nice..yes I agree this is why we all say Uber Surfaces still has a place.
Absolutely,
UberSurface does what it says on the tin and does good general surfaces.
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That is the key "general surfaces" not totally real but realistic enough for most art.
I haven't read through all of this, yet, so if it's been covered, then excuse my ramblings...
But, I was going through the part discussing the velvet settings and thought I'd share something I've been toying with, in that area.
Velvet is supposed to simulate the 'fine body hairs'/'peach fuzz'. So take a look at people. For the most part dark haired folks have darker fine hairs...light haired, lighter. People who spend a lot of time in the sun have very light fine hairs, as they sun bleach quicker. But in any case, they tend to be several shades lighter than more coarse hair or head/eyebrow hair. I've been playing around with trying to match/keep in the same color range the velvet color to the hair color. It seems to give a 'unifying' effect and make it look less like the model just stepped out of the hair salon from a dye job.
It's a sound concept, and one I'd like to see illustrated with renders and colour numbers.
CHEERS!
US2 is also great for worn and dirty clothes, I used the corroded preset on this zombie's clothes and I think I changed the scale to vary the effect on the jeans from that on the top.
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