January 2017 - Daz 3D New User Challenge - Composition

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  • IceDragonArtIceDragonArt Posts: 12,232

    Thought I'd share my attempt at getting the lighting from an advert for the new borne movie.

    Nice!

  • DAZ_ann0314DAZ_ann0314 Posts: 2,128

    LOL I had the flu crying so I seem to be behind. I think what I'll do is just watch from here on and then comment again cuz I note some things I'm saying were said all ready etc and I don't want to confuse anyone smiley Really wonderful work to everyone though. Looking through, all of these images look amazing so far and I'm enjoying watching you all work on them smiley You're doing a GREAT JOB EVERYONE! heartsmiley

  • DAZ_ann0314DAZ_ann0314 Posts: 2,128

    And TY to everyone offering advice and thoughts (especially while I was out with my icky tummy heart )

  • IceDragonArtIceDragonArt Posts: 12,232

    I'm glad you are feeling better!

  • daybirddaybird Posts: 563

    First try with the new setting Iray (dome with scene) and it makes me cracy. To create a night flair, I had set the enviroment setting from the dome to 11.

    PIC 1: In the lamp near her I have position a linear point light with a intensity near 70%, but as we can see the picture is to dark.

    PIC 2 : Even if I set the pointlight to 200% it makes no big different to the light on her shape. The only thing that makes drastic changes, is the enviroment setting.

    Must I turn off something in the enviroment setting to give the created pointlight a change to to unfold its brightness, or is it not possible to render dome and scene with selfcreated lights and get a pleasant result?

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  • Thought I'd share my attempt at getting the lighting from an advert for the new borne movie.

    Very cool!  I like the lighting. You matched it pretty well.  Love the expression on Ivan.

     

     

    Thanks for the input, but mostly everyone likes it so I am wondering should I maybe just enter it as is?

    I was really just wondering if I should let it render longer,  I stopped it at 27% cuz I really kind of liked the grittiness

    I am also not sure if maybe I should tune the DOF down so the target has a little more definition

    Maybe a little more backlight?

    Heres two more views of the scene

    Honestly, I am more partial to that top image shown here. The perspective is unique, you can see more of what is going on and it still seems to be within the topic since it seems that view is very close to "Rule of 3rds" Really all the views look great though but I think the top image here is a bit more engaging (draws you into the action a bit more) Granted that is a matter of opinion though/ my personal preference. smiley

    I've had a hard time figuring out which ones I like best.  Both of your images are really fantastic, @Zeuxidamus.  I think I like the bottom one best, but I can see why Ann likes the top one.  Both views remind me of something that should be in a comic book.  Like one in one frame and the other in a nearby frame.  :)

  • IceDragonArtIceDragonArt Posts: 12,232
    daybird said:

    First try with the new setting Iray (dome with scene) and it makes me cracy. To create a night flair, I had set the enviroment setting from the dome to 11.

    PIC 1: In the lamp near her I have position a linear point light with a intensity near 70%, but as we can see the picture is to dark.

    PIC 2 : Even if I set the pointlight to 200% it makes no big different to the light on her shape. The only thing that makes drastic changes, is the enviroment setting.

    Must I turn off something in the enviroment setting to give the created pointlight a change to to unfold its brightness, or is it not possible to render dome and scene with selfcreated lights and get a pleasant result?

    You can make the light bulb itself emissive then crank up the lumens till you get what you want.  Think in the tens or hundred thousands.  I usually start at 15000 for a darker scene and work my way up by 5 or 10 thousand increments.  It can easiely hit over 100,000 so don't be too concerned about the numbers.  Or you can change the lumens to watts and then the numbers won't be that high.

  • yhzmurphyyhzmurphy Posts: 374
    edited January 2017
    daybird said:
    I think your three bottles are fine (although a couple of them look like they may not be touching the table top - A lot of the time I will sink the prop a tiny bit into the surface its supposed to be on then slowly bring it up until its just not merged.  And make sure that you look at them from different angles, rotate your perspective view up and down and all the way around to check if they are solidly on the surface)

    This is fascinating - they must be magic candles, because they can make objects float in the air!

    The jugs are actually slightly embedded in the table top - they have not changed in that regard between these two renders:

    But using the candle light instead of spot lights creates a lighting illusion that makes them look like they are floating.  I suspect the glass has something to do with it and lack of shadows from that lighting.

    The latest render is below.  I've turned down the candles and the tried to get a balance, but am losing the composition impact of the front/middle/background lighting differences.  But at least gravity has been restored, so I have that going for me at least (which is nice).  From my personal "look at the thumbnail in File Explorer" technique, I can tell that the new render is under-lit and not enough differences in contrast between foreground and background.  I wish Daz had a "render thumbnail" option to quickly test the composition and lighting this way...I guess I could just render a tiny image (and yes, I just realized that for the first time as I'm typing this...I'm that stunned).

    So all this to realize that the earlier render with spot lights instead of "natural" candle light was better...but I've learned a lot of what not to do!

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  • kanegskanegs Posts: 80
    daybird said:

    First try with the new setting Iray (dome with scene) and it makes me cracy. To create a night flair, I had set the enviroment setting from the dome to 11.

    PIC 1: In the lamp near her I have position a linear point light with a intensity near 70%, but as we can see the picture is to dark.

    PIC 2 : Even if I set the pointlight to 200% it makes no big different to the light on her shape. The only thing that makes drastic changes, is the enviroment setting.

    Must I turn off something in the enviroment setting to give the created pointlight a change to to unfold its brightness, or is it not possible to render dome and scene with selfcreated lights and get a pleasant result?

    I think the percentages only affect the preview view (and 3dlight). For Iray you have to change the photometric settings.I usually start by adding a few zeros to the default value and then do a quick test render. I keep increasing it by factors of 10 (or even 100) until it is too bright and then I back it off a bit. Once I'm close I adjust it by factors of 2 (so if 100,000 is too dark and 1,000,000 is too bright, I try 500,000, then 250,000, etc.)

    I like to use the dome lighting as a general fill light in outdoor scenes, if it's too high shadows are very faint.

  • IceDragonArtIceDragonArt Posts: 12,232
    yhzmurphy said:
    daybird said:
    I think your three bottles are fine (although a couple of them look like they may not be touching the table top - A lot of the time I will sink the prop a tiny bit into the surface its supposed to be on then slowly bring it up until its just not merged.  And make sure that you look at them from different angles, rotate your perspective view up and down and all the way around to check if they are solidly on the surface)

    This is fascinating - they must be magic candles, because they can make objects float in the air!

    The jugs are actually slightly embedded in the table top - they have not changed in that regard between these two renders:

    But using the candle light instead of spot lights creates a lighting illusion that makes them look like they are floating.  I suspect the glass has something to do with it and lack of shadows from that lighting.

    The latest render is below.  I've turned down the candles and the tried to get a balance, but am losing the composition impact of the front/middle/background lighting differences.  But at least gravity has been restored, so I have that going for me at least (which is nice).  From my personal "look at the thumbnail in File Explorer" technique, I can tell that the new render is under-lit and not enough differences in contrast between foreground and background.  I wish Daz had a "render thumbnail" option to quickly test the composition and lighting this way...I guess I could just render a tiny image (and yes, I just realized that for the first time as I'm typing this...I'm that stunned).

    So all this to realize that the earlier render with spot lights instead of "natural" candle light was better...but I've learned a lot of what not to do!

    You can get a quick preview of an iray render by going to Draw Settings and changing it to Iray.  It can bog things down quite a bit but seems to be a bit faster with the update.  And the first time it calculated your render will take the longest, then it will recalculate on the fly.  i usually switch over, let it calculate, decide what I need to change, then change it back to texture shaded, make the changes and switch back, just because the constant re rendering when I move things around drives me a bit batty lol.  But a lot of people just leave it there and it updates every time you make a change.

  • yhzmurphyyhzmurphy Posts: 374
    edited January 2017
    yhzmurphy said:
    daybird said:
     

    You can get a quick preview of an iray render by going to Draw Settings and changing it to Iray.  It can bog things down quite a bit but seems to be a bit faster with the update.  And the first time it calculated your render will take the longest, then it will recalculate on the fly.  i usually switch over, let it calculate, decide what I need to change, then change it back to texture shaded, make the changes and switch back, just because the constant re rendering when I move things around drives me a bit batty lol.  But a lot of people just leave it there and it updates every time you make a change.

    Thanks - I'll give that a try.  I've also used the spot render tool to check how things will look quickly.  My "thumbnail" approach is more to see the whole thing without being able to see (and be distracted) by the details...as an extra view of how it's progressing.

    I've resorted to adding one of the original spots back in (with the candles and the ghost light) to get a little more definition in the layers of light.  I also tried adding some leftover liquid in one of the "empty" bottles, but something seems to be floating in it ;-)

     

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  • DeliriousDelirious Posts: 34
    edited January 2017

    Revised my entry trying to get it to look more like a summer day. I think the light is closer and the "Longitude and Latitude" IBLs that provide the tree branch shades helped a lot. Still want to make it better, so all feedback welcome.

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  • IceDragonArtIceDragonArt Posts: 12,232
    Delirious said:

    Revised my entry trying to get it to look more like a summer day. I think the light is closer and the "Longitude and Latitude" IBLs that provide the tree branch shades helped a lot. Still want to make it better, so all feedback welcome.

    The shadows are lovely in this.  How long are you letting this render for?  You might want to extend the max sample and max time for the render, it will help get rid of the grain in the deep shadows.

  • IceDragonArtIceDragonArt Posts: 12,232
    yhzmurphy said:
    yhzmurphy said:
    daybird said:
     

    You can get a quick preview of an iray render by going to Draw Settings and changing it to Iray.  It can bog things down quite a bit but seems to be a bit faster with the update.  And the first time it calculated your render will take the longest, then it will recalculate on the fly.  i usually switch over, let it calculate, decide what I need to change, then change it back to texture shaded, make the changes and switch back, just because the constant re rendering when I move things around drives me a bit batty lol.  But a lot of people just leave it there and it updates every time you make a change.

    Thanks - I'll give that a try.  I've also used the spot render tool to check how things will look quickly.  My "thumbnail" approach is more to see the whole thing without being able to see (and be distracted) by the details...as an extra view of how it's progressing.

    I've resorted to adding one of the original spots back in (with the candles and the ghost light) to get a little more definition in the layers of light.  I also tried adding some leftover liquid in one of the "empty" bottles, but something seems to be floating in it ;-)

     

     

    Must be magic brew lol!  If you still want some of that candle glow you can drop a point light on each candle flame, color it orange and play with the intensity.  Its perfectly okay to cheat with lights to get the look you are going for.  Photographers in real life do it all the time and most of the time you have to, because that's just the nature of how this stuff works.

  • yhzmurphy said:
    yhzmurphy said:
    daybird said:
     

    You can get a quick preview of an iray render by going to Draw Settings and changing it to Iray.  It can bog things down quite a bit but seems to be a bit faster with the update.  And the first time it calculated your render will take the longest, then it will recalculate on the fly.  i usually switch over, let it calculate, decide what I need to change, then change it back to texture shaded, make the changes and switch back, just because the constant re rendering when I move things around drives me a bit batty lol.  But a lot of people just leave it there and it updates every time you make a change.

    Thanks - I'll give that a try.  I've also used the spot render tool to check how things will look quickly.  My "thumbnail" approach is more to see the whole thing without being able to see (and be distracted) by the details...as an extra view of how it's progressing.

    I've resorted to adding one of the original spots back in (with the candles and the ghost light) to get a little more definition in the layers of light.  I also tried adding some leftover liquid in one of the "empty" bottles, but something seems to be floating in it ;-)

     

    Amazing how ships always end up in bottles!  This is starting to look really good. You've got some nice reflections in the liquid from the lights, too.

     

    Delirious said:

    Revised my entry trying to get it to look more like a summer day. I think the light is closer and the "Longitude and Latitude" IBLs that provide the tree branch shades helped a lot. Still want to make it better, so all feedback welcome.

    Nice improvement.  I love the shadows from the 'trees'.  That's one of my favorite products to use.

  • Kismet2012Kismet2012 Posts: 3,563
    yhzmurphy said:
    yhzmurphy said:
    daybird said:
     

    You can get a quick preview of an iray render by going to Draw Settings and changing it to Iray.  It can bog things down quite a bit but seems to be a bit faster with the update.  And the first time it calculated your render will take the longest, then it will recalculate on the fly.  i usually switch over, let it calculate, decide what I need to change, then change it back to texture shaded, make the changes and switch back, just because the constant re rendering when I move things around drives me a bit batty lol.  But a lot of people just leave it there and it updates every time you make a change.

    Thanks - I'll give that a try.  I've also used the spot render tool to check how things will look quickly.  My "thumbnail" approach is more to see the whole thing without being able to see (and be distracted) by the details...as an extra view of how it's progressing.

    I've resorted to adding one of the original spots back in (with the candles and the ghost light) to get a little more definition in the layers of light.  I also tried adding some leftover liquid in one of the "empty" bottles, but something seems to be floating in it ;-)

     

    This is getting really nitpicky but one thing that keeps bothering me about this image is the lack of residue in the empty bottle.  Bottles are rarely ever "completely" empty.  There is a drop or two of liquid left or perhaps a film of some kind on the inside of the bottle. 

     

    You do not have to do anything to the bottle.

     

    I like the idea of your thumbnail trick.  I will have to try that in the future.

     

  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,217

    Ka-pow

    no post

     

    @zeuxidamus

    Try a tad of Z-Axis tilt, and pull the camera back just a touch to give a little more "air" around your subject and the mallet.

  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,217

    Thought I'd share my attempt at getting the lighting from an advert for the new borne movie.

    Definetly one of the best things I've see you do. Really nice.Try to get his eyes looking more towards the camera and adjust the position of the text... its not quite right, but I'm not sure what that means.

  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,217
    edited January 2017
    Delirious said:

    Revised my entry trying to get it to look more like a summer day. I think the light is closer and the "Longitude and Latitude" IBLs that provide the tree branch shades helped a lot. Still want to make it better, so all feedback welcome.

    I kind of like'd the foreground lighting the best, with your main subject standing out.  My biggest issue is the position of the figure in the rear. If you look at the photo, the rear figure is more obscured by the front figure. Right now, the way you have them positioned the front figure is just bumping up against the edges of the rear figure and not obscuring her in any meaningful way.  You want either obscuring or not, don't do it half-way. Oh, and try to get some shine in your main subject's eyes. She's kind of flat.

    Post edited by evilded777 on
  • yhzmurphyyhzmurphy Posts: 374
    edited January 2017
    yhzmurphy said:
    yhzmurphy said:
    daybird said:
     

    This is getting really nitpicky but one thing that keeps bothering me about this image is the lack of residue in the empty bottle.  Bottles are rarely ever "completely" empty.  There is a drop or two of liquid left or perhaps a film of some kind on the inside of the bottle. 

     

    I like the idea of your thumbnail trick.  I will have to try that in the future.

     

    One person's nitpicky is another person's helpful ;-) and I agree that they were too clean to have ever had anything in them...so have added some 'leftover' to the bottles.  Also still playing with lighting levels.

    Glad you like the thumbnail trick...I happened to notice it one time while selecting a version to upload in File Manager.  Even now, before I hit "Post Comment," I'm looking at the little thumbnail below the "Leave a Comment" box to see if I like the overall feel of the image...oh heck, I spent all that time rending it, I may as well upload it :-)

     

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  • XangthXangth Posts: 127
    edited January 2017

    Hi all, here is a image project I started working on for this contest,

    Winter Fox

     

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  • XangthXangth Posts: 127

    Hi all, here is a image project I started working on for this contest,

    Winter Fox

     

  • SaphirewildSaphirewild Posts: 4,355

    I am seeing all kinds of amazing renders so far!!!

    If anyone is wanting to try out another challenge (Freebie Challenge) then plz click the link  http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/137956/3d-art-freebie-challenge-january-2017-the-day-after-hangover-main-thread#latest ;

    We have loads of fun there getting and using free items in renders to win great prizes and are sponcered By KindredArt, so come on over and give it a try you will not regret it!!!!

  • IceDragonArtIceDragonArt Posts: 12,232
    edited January 2017
    Xangth said:

    Hi all, here is a image project I started working on for this contest,

    Winter Fox

    Great start!  I think you will need to move the fox to the left or the right a bit or play with the angles of the camera a bit. Right now, he is almost dead center and it looks a little odd.  Even if you just rotate your camera a tiny bit it will put the fox a little offcenter and give some interesting angles to it.

    Post edited by Chohole on
  • mosjeschwartzmanmosjeschwartzman Posts: 19
    edited January 2017

    The "Jason Bourne" poster kinda triggered me, as there's a lot one can do with composition on movie pictures. Thought to try it out myself with a scene from American Sniper; always wanted to find a good reason to give that a go ;-)

    Okay; I'm the first to admit it isn't exactly Bradley Cooper here...

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  • DAZ_ann0314DAZ_ann0314 Posts: 2,128

    The "Jason Bourne" poster kinda triggered me, as there's a lot one can do with composition on movie pictures. Thought to try it out myself with a scene from American Sniper; always wanted to find a good reason to give that a go ;-)

    Okay; I'm the first to admit it isn't exactly Bradley Cooper here...

    Very nicely done and I appreciate you adding the gridded view as well (helpful to those participating and giving feedback etc) I really love the POV etc on this. Honestly I can't think of anything I could say to change other than maybe experimenting with lighting a bit but that all depends on what time of day you want it to be really though I think the more "blue" light look of your reference might be nice possibly. Really nicely done! smiley

  • DAZ_ann0314DAZ_ann0314 Posts: 2,128
    Xangth said:

    Hi all, here is a image project I started working on for this contest,

    Winter Fox

     

    I think this is lovely and your fox looks gorgeous smiley I would agree with the previous comment that you may want to experiment with angle of the camera a bit or move the fox off center some to add more interest to the image. If you find that leaves too much "dead space" you could try filling in that space with other elements (leaves, flowers, plants, rocks etc - though with the snow scene that may be difficult it would depend on what you have to work with)  You could also possibly crop the image differently as well (change the size dimensions) to trim off some dead space. Really lovely so far though...I'm in love with that fox and how beautifully it rendered...getting closer to it and changing the camera angle a bit might really add something as well so you can see the eyes better etc. Nice job! smiley

  • DAZ_ann0314DAZ_ann0314 Posts: 2,128
    yhzmurphy said:
    yhzmurphy said:
    yhzmurphy said:
    daybird said:
     

    This is getting really nitpicky but one thing that keeps bothering me about this image is the lack of residue in the empty bottle.  Bottles are rarely ever "completely" empty.  There is a drop or two of liquid left or perhaps a film of some kind on the inside of the bottle. 

     

    I like the idea of your thumbnail trick.  I will have to try that in the future.

     

    One person's nitpicky is another person's helpful ;-) and I agree that they were too clean to have ever had anything in them...so have added some 'leftover' to the bottles.  Also still playing with lighting levels.

    Glad you like the thumbnail trick...I happened to notice it one time while selecting a version to upload in File Manager.  Even now, before I hit "Post Comment," I'm looking at the little thumbnail below the "Leave a Comment" box to see if I like the overall feel of the image...oh heck, I spent all that time rending it, I may as well upload it :-)

     

    Really great scene and I really like the lighting...Ive not commented on it much as others seemed to be helping but just wanted to say I think this looks great and honestly way better than I was capable of starting out. Actually I still sometimes struggle with these sorts of scenes...so you are doing wonderfully! smiley

  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,217

    The "Jason Bourne" poster kinda triggered me, as there's a lot one can do with composition on movie pictures. Thought to try it out myself with a scene from American Sniper; always wanted to find a good reason to give that a go ;-)

    Okay; I'm the first to admit it isn't exactly Bradley Cooper here...

    I mentioned to someone else about the use of one figure obscuring the other. If you look in your reference photo, not only is the rear figure cropped awkwardly (right above his eyes), the primary figure's weapon obscures him. This draws attention away from the rear figure, it makes them not as important to the focal point of the image. Currently, with the DOF on the weapon barrel and with rear figure commanding a more focal cropping (full head and upper torso), they get more attention. The eye is drawn more to this figure than the actual sniper. In the original image the DOF on the barrel is not as pronounced and it helps to draw the eye in to the sniper.

  • DAZ_ann0314DAZ_ann0314 Posts: 2,128

    Well it would depend on whether you want the focus only on the sniper or on both soldiers. I didn't want to make an assumption on the focus. I don't disagree with your points though if the artist/ mosjeschwartzman intends only the sniper to be a focus. They didn't state either way to make that determination per say though.

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