Iray Ghost Light render and support thread (Commercial)

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  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,490

    KA: I've had decent luck avoiding the halo if I do it two sided or if there's other light sources, but it is a potential issue. (If you wanted to get super fancy you could probably put in a texture map for luminosity so that it gradiated from black at horizon and white at nadir, but... that's getting silly)

    Nyghtfall: Enh, faster renders makes everything better, even with a GPU. I have GPU renders that take hours. Making them take fewer hours is always nice.

    Plus, more importantly, you can do effects more easily with ghost lights than you can trying to do everything 'realistically.' Like general ambient level, or increasing light sources without blowing them out and then frantically trying to tone map it.

     

  • KindredArtsKindredArts Posts: 1,144
    Nyghtfall said:

    Since Dan asked about venezia suite, i've also had a couple of Pm's regarding the set (you know who you are!). I decided to investigate, so i picked up the set and mother have mercy! They were absolutely right. Not only is it a beautiful set, as expected, it's also uniquely tricky to render out. Perhaps it's the dark walls, the prop complexity, shader complexity or even the emissive meshes in the set - i'm not sure, but it is a bit heavy. I even noticed stones promo's were a bit fuzzy, but he does tend to use volumetrics, so it's understandable.

    There's something strangely ironic about your having tested your product on a set that Stone likely didn't use anything similar to, just to recreate the same quality of lighting shown in the promos.

    Anyway, with that said, i broke my cardinal rule and let the render go on for longer than five minutes, which i hate doing with the fiery passion of a thousand suns.

    Ah.  I think I understand now.  Ghost Lights are for people who don't want to wait more than a few minutes for a render to finish converging, or don't have a suitable GPU for faster rendering.

     

    My goal with that experiment was to show how higher-end scene's from artists like stone and Tomalin (and many others) can still be accessible for users with lower end hardware. If people want to wait for multiple hours to achieve results more like the original promo images, that's perfectly fine, i'm just providing options.

    Yes, mainly the folks you mentioned. I don't think it's simply a case of impatience though (although, admittedly it is for me!). One example would be the comic book guys - If you're looking to render 3-9 panels over 20+ pages, i would understand not wanting to wait for multiple hours per frame. Also animation - multiple hours per frame, or minutes per frame? Again, i'm just providing options, not tout this as a must-have, one-size-fits-all solution.

  • KindredArtsKindredArts Posts: 1,144

    KA: I've had decent luck avoiding the halo if I do it two sided or if there's other light sources, but it is a potential issue. (If you wanted to get super fancy you could probably put in a texture map for luminosity so that it gradiated from black at horizon and white at nadir, but... that's getting silly)

    Nyghtfall: Enh, faster renders makes everything better, even with a GPU. I have GPU renders that take hours. Making them take fewer hours is always nice.

    Plus, more importantly, you can do effects more easily with ghost lights than you can trying to do everything 'realistically.' Like general ambient level, or increasing light sources without blowing them out and then frantically trying to tone map it.

     

    Ahh ok, i getcha. I'll bare it in mind because perhaps a half sphere (dome) would be more useful? I'm just thinking out loud, but a half dome raised above the ground probably wouldn't create that halo effect? It might work in practice, i'll find out.

  • This was one of the products I am most excited to test in the new year. 

  • KindredArtsKindredArts Posts: 1,144

    This was one of the products I am most excited to test in the new year. 

    Thanks Mitch! Much appreciated :) OT - Nice Alienware you've got there.

  • RGcincyRGcincy Posts: 2,648

    Here's a try using Sacrament by Jack Tomalin. The cathedral has an open back but it's far from the front, so little light reaches the interior. I did this as Scene Only, so all the light is coming from 4 ghost lights: a 1000K light in front of the rose window, a 200K light in front of the rose window but facing the window itself, a 1000K light in front of the lower window, and a 100K light in the left alcove. A 500x600 version took 6 min 17 sec to get to 100%. This render of 1000x1200 took 23 min 58 sec to get ot 100% (4 times the area, 4 times the render time). Click on image for larger version. 

  • KindredArtsKindredArts Posts: 1,144
    RGcincy said:

    Here's a try using Sacrament by Jack Tomalin. The cathedral has an open back but it's far from the front, so little light reaches the interior. I did this as Scene Only, so all the light is coming from 4 ghost lights: a 1000K light in front of the rose window, a 200K light in front of the rose window but facing the window itself, a 1000K light in front of the lower window, and a 100K light in the left alcove. A 500x600 version took 6 min 17 sec to get to 100%. This render of 1000x1200 took 23 min 58 sec to get ot 100% (4 times the area, 4 times the render time). Click on image for larger version. 

    Great test rich. There's a lot of dark space's reliant on bounce light here, so i think Iray stacked up quite well all things considered. The 200k light facing the rose window - was that needed to clear the area? 

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 36,967

    ...I wonder what would hapen of you put one behind the rose and stained glass windows.

  • RGcincyRGcincy Posts: 2,648
    edited January 2017

    Great test rich. There's a lot of dark space's reliant on bounce light here, so i think Iray stacked up quite well all things considered. The 200k light facing the rose window - was that needed to clear the area? 

    I originally didn't have it, then added it to try and bring the window out more. I didn't want to make the 1000K light facing away from that window two-sided as it was so close I thought it would make the window too bright, so I added a second light, flipped it around and made it less intense. You can see the difference below. The first image is with 1 light by the rose window and the second is with 2. The latter highlights more of the stonework  in the window.

    [Note: the images below use a whitepoint setting of 1, The one I posted previously had a light blue white point to give the image an orange cast.]

     

     

    kyoto kid said:

    ...I wonder what would happen of you put one behind the rose and stained glass windows.

    I tried that too and it didn't add a lot of light to the window. The surrounding stone got lighter but the color pattern in the window itself stayed the same. If I reduced translucency on the window's shader, it let a lot of light through but then it washed out all of the color pattern.

    One interesting thing I noticed when I went back and did some test renders is that the render image has much brighter window colors than the saved .jpg. You can see below where the first image is a screen grab of the  render window and the second is a screen shot from the saved jpeg. The window's colors are greatly muted and the blue mostly disappears. Is it better to save a .png or .tiff? Both screen grabs are jpgs, so it's not inherent in the jpeg format.

     

    Sacrament 4 3-lights.jpg
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    Rose window.jpg
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    Rose window.saved.jpg
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    Sacrament 2.jpg
    1000 x 1200 - 853K
    Post edited by RGcincy on
  • L'AdairL'Adair Posts: 9,470
    Plus, more importantly, you can do effects more easily with ghost lights than you can trying to do everything 'realistically.' Like general ambient level, or increasing light sources without blowing them out and then frantically trying to tone map it.

    When an environment is dark, inside or out, our eyes adjust to let more light in so we can see the things around us. But to get what "our eyes see" in any given render, we have to compensate with light. That's what makes ghost lights so valuable. They work amazingly to produce a soft ambient light, and still let the main lighting produce the focal points.

    @KindredArts, I went ahead and bought the kit. I was planning on buying it on the 31st and using my HLR, but my modem took that opportunity to die on me! But I wanted these bad enough to buy them on the 1st, after buying a new modem. There are a more than a few scenes I want to revisit and see if I can improve on them. I like the drama of high contrast scenes, but I think they can be improved with a bit more light in some of the dark areas. I'll post some before and afters as I get them finished. Thanks for such a wonderful tool. I've only used it with one, new scene, so far, but I'm loving the ease of use.

  • barbultbarbult Posts: 17,459

    What is an HLR?

  • marblemarble Posts: 6,021
    barbult said:

    What is an HLR?

    At a guess, Holiday Loylaty Reward (which did end on the 31st.).

  • jakibluejakiblue Posts: 7,270

    So I find myself in need of help (not unusual for me). I can't quite work the lights out. 

    See the screenshot below. What is the difference between the coloured icons, adn hte black with white text ones? IGLK 1000 K versus IGLK 1000

    What does the 'k' signify? 

    Also in the Utilities folder, there are also black icons with white text that say the same thing - what are they used for? 

    I KNOW i'm doing something wrong because I'm not getting any light. I load one of the props, I apply the IGLK ghost setup icon in Utilities.....then I apply one of the 'materials'....but something is going wrong for me. 

    ghostlights.jpg
    864 x 928 - 357K
  • NovicaNovica Posts: 23,342

    jakiblue- I'm just now fiddling with it- Create the lights,then click the apply before presets (which makes the lights disappear) then you need to click on the intensity. Materials are just color- did you do the intensity?

     

  • RGcincyRGcincy Posts: 2,648

    Also, it's much easier to understand if you use it through the Content Library as the icons are gathered in folders that make it easier to understand.

  • jakibluejakiblue Posts: 7,270

    which ones are hte intensisty? the ones with the numbers on them? 

    Novica said:

    jakiblue- I'm just now fiddling with it- Create the lights,then click the apply before presets (which makes the lights disappear) then you need to click on the intensity. Materials are just color- did you do the intensity?

     

     

  • jakibluejakiblue Posts: 7,270

    ah damn it. I had a feeling that is what was happening. I'm honestly starting to be totally over smart content. :sigh: Can i acess it in the content library if i've installed via connect? 

    RGcincy said:

    Also, it's much easier to understand if you use it through the Content Library as the icons are gathered in folders that make it easier to understand.

     

  • barbultbarbult Posts: 17,459
    jakiblue said:

    ah damn it. I had a feeling that is what was happening. I'm honestly starting to be totally over smart content. :sigh: Can i acess it in the content library if i've installed via connect? 

    RGcincy said:

    Also, it's much easier to understand if you use it through the Content Library as the icons are gathered in folders that make it easier to understand.

     

    Yes, it is still in the Content Library when you install with Daz Connect. If Daz did a better job with the metadata, you could see all the same organization in the Smart Content. Sadly, the metadata for the ghost lights is not very good. I feel you pain there for sure.

  • RGcincyRGcincy Posts: 2,648
    jakiblue said:

    which ones are the intensity? the ones with the numbers on them? 

    Yes

    I've never used connect so can't answer that question. See if you can right click on any of the Smart Content icons and choose "Show Asset In" then "Content Library > Mapped Folder. That's how I get to the Content Library from Smart Content. 

  • jakibluejakiblue Posts: 7,270

    AHA!!!! found it in the content library. OMG that makes so much MORE sense now!!!!!!!! NOW i get it!

    Grrrrrr, the metadata sucks big time for this one. I'm sending in a ticket to tell them to fix the stupid metadata. 

  • jakiblue said:

    So I find myself in need of help (not unusual for me). I can't quite work the lights out. 

    See the screenshot below. What is the difference between the coloured icons, adn hte black with white text ones? IGLK 1000 K versus IGLK 1000

    What does the 'k' signify? 

    The 'k' represents kelvin which is the unit that measures the temperature of the lights.  If the preset says 1000k then it means that the preset changes the temperature of the light to 1000 kelvins.  Changing the number of kelvins changes the color of the light.  It looks like KindredArts put the color on the presets to show what color that temperature light will show as when it is rendered.  If you want to change the color of the light then choose the color of the light you want and that preset will change the Emission Temperature of your light.  I haven't played with all of those presets yet. 

    jakiblue said:

    Also in the Utilities folder, there are also black icons with white text that say the same thing - what are they used for? 

    Each of the black pictures looks like they change the Luminance which is how much of the light gets through or how bright the light is.

    jakiblue said:

    I KNOW i'm doing something wrong because I'm not getting any light. I load one of the props, I apply the IGLK ghost setup icon in Utilities.....then I apply one of the 'materials'....but something is going wrong for me. 

    Did you apply the button that say Apply Before Presets?  That basically turns the visibility off after you get the light into position.  After you apply the presets, you won't notice a change until you start rendering your light.  You'll see the changes take place in your settings, but you need to do a render or use the nVidia preview in the viewport to see the changes.

  • NovicaNovica Posts: 23,342
    edited January 2017
    jakiblue said:

    AHA!!!! found it in the content library. OMG that makes so much MORE sense now!!!!!!!! NOW i get it!

    Grrrrrr, the metadata sucks big time for this one. I'm sending in a ticket to tell them to fix the stupid metadata. 

    I kinda wondered why you didn't know about Intensity when it's so well marked in Content Library LOL. But I've done so many DUHS that were just plain me not seeing what's right in front of my face, so it didn't dawn on me you weren't in Content Library. That's all I use. 

    Post edited by Novica on
  • L'AdairL'Adair Posts: 9,470
    barbult said:

    What is an HLR?

    marble said:

    At a guess, Holiday Loylaty Reward (which did end on the 31st.).

    Yes, sorry. The holiday loyalty reward discount. Mine was at 30%, making the Ghost Light Kit under $10... My own fault, really. If I'd checked out earlier in the day, I'd have been fine. lol.

  • TangoAlphaTangoAlpha Posts: 4,579

    It's cutting hours off my render time for giant interior promos - very happy with it. smiley

  • KindredArtsKindredArts Posts: 1,144

    Ok, so little did i know, when i rested my weary head 8 hours ago, drama would ensue! I wonder who's at the center of it too devil. Joking aside, i really don't use smart content, so thanks to everyone popping up and providing some clarity on the subject. I actually know someone who deals with metadata so i'll see if i can get some sort of resolution to the issue. When everything is thrown in together, i can totally see why it's a bit confusing. As mentioned, the colour settings are indeed kelvin measurements, However! - The intensity presets should actually read Kcdm/2, but the icons looked ugly. I thought with the right amount of separation it would all make sense.

    @jakiblue - Is everything ok now blue? Give me a holler if you're stuck.

    @RGcincy - Ah ok, i'm following your line of thinking. If that glass were set to a low ambient value (about 5 kcdm/2) i think it would boost the realism. I know this is more than likely GI testing, but it would be interesting to see if that affected render performance. You would need to drop the diffuse texture into the emissive texture slot, otherwise it would look flat. I don't have that particular set, otherwise i'd check myself. As usual, thank you for all the testing!

    @L'Adair - Thank you for purchase smiley Sorry to hear about the router, we do tend to take things for granted until it coughs and splutters to an inevitable halt. I should really check on my router, it's currently burried under a load of boxes in my spare room indecision

    @TangoAlpha - Many thanks Tango! Glad to help.

  • NovicaNovica Posts: 23,342
    edited January 2017

    I've been up all night so getting off the computer, but played with portraits since a few people were curious. This is using five of the lights. It took the following: (and I'm not technical re: computers, it's an Alienware51 with Core TM i7-5820K CPU @3.30 GHZ  (none of this means anything to me BTW) and I remember the graphics was the 970. My computer is fast so this won't be everyone's results, but the time below was the closeup portrait so the speed with the lights is very good.  

    2min 43%
    2:30   68%
    3:00  85%
    3:12  90% iterations 1125
    3:52  96%  1248 iterations
    4:14  97%  1393 iterations
    DONE 4:26 seconds

     

    ghostliteMysteryA.jpg
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    ghostliteMystery2A.jpg
    533 x 600 - 235K
    Post edited by Novica on
  • One thing to keep in mind. Make sure the little helper arrow is pointing into the room. Lol. The first time I tried it I had zero results. Rotate 180 degrees and *poof* I had light.
  • @Novica - Very nice.  :)

  • KindredArtsKindredArts Posts: 1,144

    @Everyone! - I had a quick note from my good buddy sickleyield, she said to make sure your camera light is disabled unless you specifically know what you're doing with it. This could be another cause of flat rendering.

    @Novica - Forum royalty in my humble thread? Great stuff. Thank you for the renders, very well done. (Is that the wedding dress from wilmap btw?)

    @Digital Lite Design - Wise words Von Kat.

  • dawnbladedawnblade Posts: 1,654

    Should the Architectural Sampler switch in render settings be on for interior renders?

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