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Horrible unrigged assets
"PA's can try to spin that however they like, but it's a hard fact, that when we are talking about almost 80% increase in base prices, that is a significant increase."
"The idea is to grow the markets and you don't get that by making it appear your prices continue to go up. Perception matters."
I picked two quotes but only because they seem sort of representative of what many people are saying. My issue with these ideas is that the first paints with a wide brush. It states that base prices are up 80%. And the second is that prices appear to go up and it points to perception. And I very much think that the word perception is important. You see when you say that base prices have gone up 80% we are not talking about the market as a whole. Many prices have stayed the same or in some instances gone down.
I'm going to use my own new release as an example. Not only is it not an 80% increase in the base price it is a decrease from the base price when Iray was first released. My new shader set costs .054 cents per shader preset at full price. It is priced well below shader sets of a similar size that was released by other PA's over the last 2 years. Not because my product is less valuable and not because my quality is not as high. But because there are more shader sets out there and thus more competition. If you look at another fairly new set (late October) the per shader price is .079. So slightly higher but not unreasonably so. If you look at my first shader sets done for iray the cost per shader preset was .124 per shader preset at full price. That is a nearly 50% drop in price not an 80% increase.
The perception seems to be that ALL prices for ALL PA produces has gone up and yet that isn't the case. Some have gone down. So because some product types by some PA's have a higher price we are all painted with that brush as having increased our prices dramatically. And there is nothing that we can do about that perception because even when prices actually drop on products they are still perceived as more expensive because people look at the highest priced products in the store and frame their beliefs about all products based on those.
^^^ Without elaborating on it too much... THIS.... totally hits the nail on the head.
Its funny how the ideology got flipped coz its more convenient to the thread's argument lol
I said I don't do that... not that people don't do that... though, I imagine it happens far less to Sony, as they often don't even provide the means for public lynching.
And lol Im pretty certain I do not do that, as Ive not suffered any random blackouts or alien abductions as of late that would make my memory questionable. So, no... I won't see that I do it too. Now if you mean Ive complained before in private... sure, we all gripe when we can't afford something. But its not wahhhh they should lower that price... its wahhhh I just really want the thing and can't get it right now. But regardless... doing so privately to a friend or spouse is very different than calling someone out very publicly and demanding they lower their prices. And in this case, its worse.... coz you are dealing with artists one on one, and their very personal creations.... and not some corporation with a lack of a face and name
The funny thing about this... THERE are actually TONS of users. As any PA who has ever uploaded a permanent freebie (not daz bought) can see, its that there are literally thousands who have purchased it for zero dollars. Im not kidding either... THOUSANDS. I have one, and the set it supports actually does cost money (and sold for far less units in the 400 range, which is funny unto itself as you cant use the freebie without it) Yet, people who are actually buying... those numbers vary greatly down to 100 - 200 - 300 copies of an item. So the thought that the community is small, is a bit of a fallacy... its not. Just the people who are willing to pay for stuff is.
That's why I said the market is small, not the community. There are indeed a lot of users, but not that many who are ready to spend money.
And yeah, that wasnt to your post but the ones you had quoted, actually. You are indeed correct.
This thread is getting a little crabby, with comments addressed to the poster rather than the subject and with an implicit questioning of people's integrity. Please return the conversation to a civil tone and level.
Don't be scared by the sticker shock. Go through all the sales pages, carting everything you have wishlisted or are even mildly interested in. After you do, go to your cart. THESE are the prices. Base price means nothing. Discount price means next to nothing. Cart price IS THE PRICE. Yesterday, I neglected to place an item in the cart because it was $15.57 (@ -40%; Base Price $25.95). Later, I placed it in my cart, and it was less than $7! I'm getting over 50% off NEW items. Don't be scared by the sticker shock.
Now, at these prices, how can PA's live as well as WalMart or McDonald's employees?
We are all good people... PAs and Customers. The PA artists are wanting a fair price for their hard work and customers want a good deal for the products they buy here. Both should be valued by the other for providing tools and characters for our hobby and the other for honestly buying the products legally when the alternative is just clicks away. There have been areas of contention around software supported(I cringe when reading the Poser is dead comments), backwards compatibility, DRM, and pricing but we are still a community of good people.
Thank you very much, I appreciate you taking the time to watch them :) . I guess creating animation is really my primary interest in using Daz studio & why I am just hanging back to see what happens ,if and when genesis 4 comes out . if g4 does not have compatibility with g3, Then I'll properly will never invest in any g3 products. its just to hard to work with for what I like to do with daz studio and there is a seriously lacking in tools for working with g3 in animation as well where older generations from genesis 2 on down to v3 all work with my already existing motions file library so If I have to build files motions for genesis 3 I'll want to make sure g4 can use them too :) If not like I said I properly wont invest in g3 other wise.
Yes that use to always be good way to look for deals until you spent a hour or 2 going through everything and are ready to check out and poof , all the prices change in the shopping cart just before you check out. like has happened about 20 times in the last month..lol
I haven't forgotten, and whenever that subject comes up, I repeat my claim that it's been Daz's mistake conditioning customers to the sales (and let's not even talk about how confusing some of them are). The sales have only fanned the flames of the perception of increased prices -- to keep a level of income, the regular prices are increased. People DO see the full price as well as the sale price, and of course, there's plenty of time the products are not offered on any sale. I have several in my wish list that have been there for over a year, and have never been on sale in that time. Result: No one makes any money.
I have sympathy for the creators of product, as I'm one in another line of business. But I won't make excuses for the conditions of the business I've chosen. The hurdles are mine to overcome. I've never felt the need to explain to a customer that some book is $19 when they think it should be $12. Things are what they are. The best course is to appreciate the feedback, consider it next time you have an idea where a project at a lower price point might make sense, and move on.
How is this any different than a car dealer (as an example) offering 25% off of the MSRP of a few models of cars he sells? Most of the dealerships in the state I work in that advertise on the radio do this on a fairly regular basis. Most folks buying cars see the regular price when models aren't put on sale and pass them up, unless they absolutely need that model right then and there.
"One of the things I find hard to digest, is that I have never once thot gee, i cant afford that tv and then went and complained to Sony that their tv's are too expensive and that they need to lower the cost because *I* cant afford it."
But you don't go into the store and complain to the clerk at the checkout. That was IS's point. Here, people do complain all the time about the prices because "they" can't afford it. I don't know of any store or establishment that will lower their prices simply because the potential customer says they're "poor". Especially with things we don't need but only want. I dunno, maybe I find it a bit entitled? I would never dream of telling a vendor their prices were too high. I simply wouldn't buy and move on to something else. *shrug*
FWIW, I haven't bought much of anything for Poser, DS or otherwise for about 8 years until recently, simply because I had NO money. But no one saw me in here complaining about the prices during that time or that I was poor or woe is me, I'm penniless ;). I know I won't convince most of you that it's a waste of your time to complain about it, but I know people have to vent I suppose ;).
Laurie
This is a public discussion forum about a 3D Hobby. Pricing is a valid topic of discussion. And for people to criticize customers for voicing their concerns and to tell them they are embarrassing themselves is rather ridiculous. You would think PA's would know better than to risk alienating their customer base, especially if they believe there are only 300 to 400 paying customers.
Let me correct one false thing about this statement: I never said the customers were being embarrassed... I meant the vendors who were part of the OP, who were called out specifically by name, and the products they did that were named as being priced too high. I cant imagine that it feels very nice when someone questions the value of something you made.
You can talk about pricing all you want. There is no harm in abstractly discussing such things or discussing the general atmosphere of pricing schematics on the DAZ website. The issue I have, is when artists are named and shamed. All I ask of anyone is to put yourselves in their shoes... would you like being called out that way? Probably not, and yet, you expect us to take it with a grain of salt and even respond to us defensively (not to mention making threats to our income over imagined alienation), when we try to discuss how we feel about such things.
Yes, people do complain at the checkout, to the stock clerks, and to the managers all the time. I thank those people for their honesty in doing something like lodging a complaint which isn't fun to do or a rewarding thing to do either. And often those complainers are right as the products often ring up incorrectly at a higher price, the pricing listed on the shelves are wrong, or yes, the product is overpriced and in that case the management will eventually find out via sales but they complainer has done nothing wrong in stating their opinion civilly.
Overpriced products aren't impossible and are often a common ploy used to imply quality that isn't necessarily there. My own experience complaining to Chrysler about my 1 year old (bought brand new) vehicle's car engine blowing up due to programmer error was that the Chrysler support person started actually screaming at the top of his lungs at me on the telephone in an attempt to silence my complaint. No thanks, complaint lodged.
I've had a relatively new car throw a rod, so I know what you mean there. And that is completely different than generally complaining about prices. That deserves for someone to get screamed at. ;) And if it was someone complaing about food prices, gas prices, utilities I can understand also. It's things one must have. I just won't complain about prices for things I don't have to have is all ;). If the price is too high, it actually saves me money not to be able to buy it or to wait until it's not so expensive.
Laurie
I thought the PC+ Sale had spoiled me, but I'm relieved (I couldn't think of another word) to hear that other people have noticed it too.
Total buying customers per product, since not every person that buys in this store will be interested in every product offered here. And, as has been said, not every product that gets put on a store site sells the way the vendor hopes it will, which is why you don't often see "radical" ideas being created.
A week to make a product and only 40 hours spent on it... I wish!
I know; I've lost count of the hours I've put in on Niren and Nadiya so far.
Wow.
For those of us old enough to remember the original prices of content on Zygote and the old Content Paradise......current prices are still VERY cheap. And those old Zygote prices were in 1990's dollars. Convert those to include inflation, and the prices today are a steal, even without sales and discounts.
And you get a LOT more (both in content and in quality) than back in those days.
Agreed, we all like to get more for our money, and it can be hard to justify spending as much as SOME of us do (dear god, the DazDeals browser plugin.....it shows things man was never meant to know!) on just a hobby. It's even tougher for some. But new sales come along every week....sometimes every DAY (flash sales? I know the holiday/PC+ stuff pre-empts them, but during the rest of the time, they're fairly common) and a lot of the content that isn't 'new' anymore gets discounted very heavily. Yeah, it sucks to wait.....I know my Wishlist keeps growing as I put stuff I just can't rationalize the cost of NOW, so that when it gets offered much cheaper I can grab it. But unless we are independantly wealthy, we don't get to just buy whatever we want, when we want.
But it is pretty apparent that the prices today are moving more toward 'sale' offset prices, rather than straight prices. Part of that is just the psychology of sales. Someone is a lot more likely to buy ANYTHING if they think they're getting a great deal on it, rather than it just having a lower base price and not as much of a discount. That's just human nature. If a person sees two similar items, one at $10 (which is 50% off it's base price of $20) and another at $10 (which is 90% off it's base price of $100) they are much more likely (statistically) to buy the one that they are getting 90% off on. Even if both items are roughly equivalent. It just seems like a better deal, as you are saving $90 vs. saving $10.
Those of us who make a hobby out of psychology see this. I'm just happy the PA's and DAZ haven't started trying to use NLP and such in the advertising copy on the product pages......it's really annoying to those of us who can recognize it.....
I wonder how many of the posters who say people don't publicly complain about prices have visited many other forums. I see it all the time, in both generic and company-specific forums. Y'all should get out more often. The level of complaints here is rather tame!
For PAs complaining in public about customers complaining: is that really the smart thing to do? You tell me.
For complaints not specific to quality or service, there are three general approaches:
1. For customers with unfounded complaints who just like the sound of their own keyboards, ignore them.
2. For customers with reasonable concerns that you nevertheless can't do anything about, thank them and move on.
3. When enough customers share the same complains and concerns, consider filling a market that seems to be underserved.
Cars = 3D assets? Not really, nor should any PA want this kind of comparison. The list price of a car is set by the manufacturer; dealers then act in a way to foster sympathy with the buyer, using the list price as leverage to make a sale. Everyone knows the car will sell for less than list. Car makers seem to be okay cast as the bad guy with inflated prices. Do PAs really want that kind of relationship with their customers?
This is also a discussion about business and making a living which for some it is. I work in retail management for a national company and while our goal is to provide quality products and great customer service, there are definately those that take the "customer is always right" attitude waaaaay to far and I see them in the forums also. It's funny, I have a few Egyptians on my staff and they tell me great stories of relatives who own shops overseas that get to tell their customers off when they act badly or become unreasonable, man I would love that kind of freedom, maybe when I decide to quit or retire, LOL. I do do it to a lesser level when I am out shopping and overhear other consumers acting badly, even got a gift card out of it from the store manager once for being able to voice what he was thinking, LOL.
As for increasing the user base, I figure if there are more examples of what can be done with DS and it's content, that would be a good thing to get more new users interested in trying DS. Maybe make the galleries more user friendly, expand it's online footprint. showcase other uses such as animations, game use, a WIP section, etc. As it sits right now with me, the site is a marketplace first and foremost and if all the sales we see are the various ways DAZ is trying to bring users in, then that is just hurting PAs IMO. I say that because as a modeller for game addons and such, I have a pretty good idea of the workload and i can defend the PAs and their decisions. Doesn't mean I can always afford their products, but I also don't go around complaining about the pricing either
That doesn't shock me as I see theft and piracy of products all day long on the web, even DAZ assets, but it does make me really sad and angry. Then again, you really can't use downloads as a good measure of anything. many people download things all the time and never use them, not just in this community but all over. Like the Blender analogy, I have downloaded it several times and several versions, but don't use it and don't have it installed any longer
Do you really think that vendors have not tried this? Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. For what it's worth, this is why SickleYield did a Genesis 3 version of Faces of Asia and Faces of Africa, even though the previous versions didn't do as well as she had hoped.
Making a complaint in a persuasive yet respectful manner can have a good outcome, not just for the complainant, but the respondent, too. It depends on how willing they are to listen. Most small businesses don't have the budgets for surveys or focus groups, so the only way they can know when they're on track is to field the compliments with the complaints. Treat both with equal value. Use the complaints to find new business opportunities. So-called business gurus put on expensive seminars every day that boil down to this: find a niche no one is doing well (even if that includes yourself), fill it, and then own it.
But I'm not telling you anything new. You were one of the first ShareCG contributors to offer any decent Iray-specific shaders. You took the time to understand what was needed, and how to produce it. You're the only ShareCG contributor I follow, and I have yet to see any download of yours not worthy of commercial sale. Now, I enjoy free stuff like anyone, but I certainly wouldn't begrudge you if you went pro with it and started charging. But then, we'd get to complain if you wanted too much for it!!
I realize the OP complained about a specific new product, and some PAs took umbrage for that. I don't have this product, but I'm familiar with both OOT and Raiya, and can guess that even at full price, these particular products are worth it. I would tend to believe the OP wasn't complaining about their specific pricing, but the perception of ever-increasing prices for many of the new releases. For those doing this only as a hobby, it must seem worrisome, because if the price is too high, it affects their ability to participate (as they would like) in this very special artform.
Interesting. If most buyers are purchasing items during the deep discounts, that rather counters the notion of the introductory period being the most significant for unit sales.
I'm sure some have. Does that negate the value of the comment?
I'm pretty sure many PAs follow the suggestions I wrote, which are the ones I learned long ago myself, the hard way, I might add. Only a handful are here being defensive for the sake of collective defensiveness. The rest have elected a different route of non-involvement. Doesn't mean they don't care, but as I said, sometimes it's best just best to let the complaints roll off your back.
Car makers and PAs will both be OK with being "cast as the bad guy with inflated prices" if their products continue to sell well with sufficient revenues.