No encrypted for me.
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Indeed you were correct. I just got back home from work and tested 4.9, and got my "freebie" dragon queen from my yesterday's shopping spree exported and rendered just fine. This is great news, and looks like I don't have to abandon Daz after all. Well, I still don't like DRMs, but at least this one doesn't destroy my workflow, so I'll hold my tongue....for now :)
Still wish I could make HD morphs :) Guess it was foreshadowing the future.
TS has a very good point. It has been done before - Cornucopia3d.com with E-On Software's Vue has been doing this locked to installation content DRM since inception. Even though just as elegently implemented with the applications content browser, it has not been a good experience for the users. Locked to license causes a lot of confusion and dashed hopes, and remains as the number one factor inhibiting adoption of the software and C3D user base. Anyone visit C3D lately -its a ghost town.
Ha ha ha. So there were no plans for encrypted-only content, and then they drop items on the first day of 4.9. Oh dear. That's really impressive. To be fair, we all knew there would be Connect-only things, and sooner rather than later. If people accept this and keep buying items, there's no doubt that everything will be encrypted-only, which is very, very evil and dangerous.
Here's how I see things. I know many won't agree, but we all have our opinions.
I've never bought anything that has DRM on it in my life, other than one game I didn't realise had it. I don't even have a Steam account, and as an avid gamer, that really limits my choices. But I just can't see how people could willingly part with their cash for DRM items.
Imagine you are out shopping, and you find something you want to buy. You take it to the counter, but the guy behind the counter says:
"Well I can sell you this, but only if you agree that one day in the future I might come into your home and take it away so you no longer have access to it."
How many of us would buy it if that was a risk, no matter how small? How many of us would accept that? Nobody, that's how many. Because if they did that to us that would be theft.
Does nobody else see that by implementing DRM, Daz is basically threatening the possibility (no matter how small) that they will essentially steal our stuff if things ever go wrong. Stuff that we've paid for and therefore should belong to us. Kinda funny that legitimate spenders now have that hanging over them because Daz want pirates to stop stealing their things. Sure, they can promise one thing or another, but we have absolutely no reason to trust them. They are just a company after our money after all. Like others have said, if they wanted to keep us happy, they would implement new features people have asked for rather than features that nobody has asked for.
I just really, really hope the sales for DRM items prove to be very low. That might sound vindictive, but I want this whole idea to be scrapped so we can all move on. I only say this because I want to be able to buy things again in the future, which I will not let myself do if only DRM items are available.
So please Daz, get rid of this encryption/DRM.
If, as I assume, this will never go away, let me ask a couple of questions:
1. Is there a way in 4.9 to open an encrypted item and save a version of it that is not encrypted, so I can then back it up if the worst-case scenario ever happens?
2. If there is no real way to un-encrypt an item in Daz itself, but some clever pirate manages to crack the encryption (which they will of course), what would the stance be of both Daz and the content creators if someone were to download the un-encrypted version after legally buying the encrypted version from the store?
Just some thoughts.
Export functions will still work, so you can at least save an exported version.
For DS-format, has anyone tried to save an encrypted item they loaded as a new item? It would be interesting to know if the resulting new item is encrypted...
well I turned off windows firewall and finally got PostSQL CMS Valentina conversion to work and now can at least sign in on the beta 4.9 public build I have, no way going to use it as my release build
but
damned if I can get those 3 new connect freebies
downloaded the offline files too and created that install folder but cannot find the hidden tab in smart content or content directory
honestly this is proving a headache I do not need and convinced me only more I do not want it
Greetings,
The thing that makes me saddest is seeing people saying, essentially:
And if it's not already completely obvious, if you download pirated content even if you own the un-pirated content, you are aiding in creating a market...a demand...for pirated goods. You're part of the problem.
-- Morgan
P.s. Also, if you own a cellphone (and statistically you probably do) or Windows 7+ or...lots of other things, you have DRM content already, so the whole 'I never buy DRMed content!' is pretty much just something you tell yourself, but isn't actually true.
People aren't essentially saying that at all. "Don't ever try to make things better" and "don't make things worse for customers" are two completely different things.
What people are actually saying is "this is worse for us and we don't think it'll have a positive effect that will make our worse experience worth it."
Never mind....
Yes and I missed the last page. I suck at quoting in batches. I am glad you guys worked it out. I just didn't want you to be too upset by misunderstanding. Next time I will just type it out instead of trying out my less than stellar quoting options.
Saying this to defend and define my point of view (which I think is going to be poorly received by both ends of the argument)... I don't like to be thought of as a luddite, pro-pirate, or a stubborn SOB.
I don't mind DRM. However I am going to choose not to purchase the encrypted content here because I do not like the way it is being implemented. I would actually prefer (and back) the encryption situation it if it was more restrictive and had more of an impact on my use of the products.
I know that is probably an unpopular sentiment and makes little sense on the surface. I have two reasons for this...
1. If the encryption scheme was more draconian, had more impact in my unlocking the content, then I would feel better about it actually accomplishing something. In other words, I don't mind being somewhat inconvenienced if I knew that there was a value to it. It might irritate me from time to time, but I'd realize there was a functioning purpose to it. The current scheme (as I understand it) does not appear that it will deter anyone. And my gut feeling may be wrong, only time will tell.
2. Schemes added in after the fact are notoriously bad ideas. This goes for just about anything. The existing framework / processes never meant to handle this new functionality. So things get shoehorned in to varying degrees of success. You can use the "square peg into a round hole" analogy in this case. These circumstances breed unforeseen events and are a constantly evolving situation where things have to be re-tooled and re-engineered. Anyone who has been around here for a while can remember the whole Magneto website debacle. Where the store didn't quit fit within the framework of the turn key website. This is a very similar situation in my mind.
Here are the thoughts that brought me to this point of view:
1. The addition of encryption has to have the least impact from a legitimate user point of view. Which inherently creates a weaker security situation. Hence my "will this actually deter anyone?" question.
2. As far as I understand, Daz Studio never really had a functionality that identified the customer as well as their purchases. So this functionality had to be added into the base of the software.
3. Again, AFAIU, DS never had a method of decrypting locked content. So this has to be added in as well as a method of authenticating against the condition in #2.
4. To add value to the addition of 2 and 3, a store interface and updating process is added into DS.
The additions of 2-3 encompass a lot of "hooks" being patched into the software, where those hooks never existed before. Each one of these hooks is a new potential failure point within an already complex peice of software. To keep the programming impact of 2-3 to a minimum they would most likely be added as additional subroutines or plug ins outside of the normal program function. Further devaluing the security mentioned in 1 because the security processes would be easier to spot and circumvent. (I.e. just turning off the security protocol, disabling the hidden plug in, or simply sending false positives to the security listener.)
Obviously DAZ3D is not going to go into a great level of detail about how the security scheme worked, since that would also have an impact on 1, providing clues on how to circumvent the security. Yet that is the very same information that would re-assure the nervous users. It's a catch 22.
In closing let me add that I am all for the addition of encryption. I just wish it had a bit more bite. With all the money I have spent here over the years I have a vested interest in the health and longevity of DAZ3D. I also feel for those PAs who see their hard earned work being traded for free.
A couple of pages back, someone asked about the removal of older versions of Studio from their product library. Well as far as I can tell, that has always been the case. Or at least the last few years, every time a new version came out the old one went poof from the product library. I also wanted a install copy of 4.8 the latest version and sadly I don't have one at the moment.
I know there is a great debate going on but one thing that I am guessing with regard to the Pro DRM people is that they haven't ever lost anything due to DRM. Most of us have at one point at another no matter WHAT promises the companies made. In the end the only thing that will truly safeguard our interests is US. Hence if we can't backup or otherwise protect and have the products we purchase separate from DRM you have lost our trust. And loosing a customers trust means they go somewhere else. Also all the quotes from daz have been "we have no intention of" well guess what, those that lost to DRM heard the same song and dance before. And you know the old saying "The Road to Heck is paved with good intentions."
The only thing that I see that will turn this around is if Daz does a 180 saying "hey we goofed we hear you, no DRM now or ever". But even then I don't know if I will trust them again considering they have already broken my trust. I may I may not. I will have to think about it. I guess it would be a wait and see. But I have NEVER seen a company back off of the DRM road once they start.
Steam has been mentioned several times, and while I also have a Steam account, I never buy games from the company. Most of what I have were free give aways, or gifts from friends. In the grand scheme of things Steam's DRM worked/survived/thrived because they are a game delivery system. Daz is not. Many (if not most) buy content from Daz that we then tweak or otherwise change to fit what we need. Sometimes it is simply that we do not want our work to look like 'everyone else's'. DRM will block or otherwise hinder that. Yes I know it is not all content, but for how long? I have my doubts, we already were told no encrypted only content, yet first day of Daz Connect guess what? New Encrypted only content. So again it all comes back to that trust issue.
I, like Ivy, am going to empty my wish list shortly. I may get a few things here and there but I suspect most of my content buying with Daz is done and if emptying a almost 600 item wish list isn't a message I don't know what is.
This is a logical fallacy. By definition, pirated goods are free. There's no market or demand. There's no money being exchanged.
The people who provide pirated goods often do it because of the challenge and glory. They see DRM schemes like a puzzle. Finishing that puzzle, framing it, and putting it up for all to see is why they do it. That's why different groups will race each other.
[Forbes]
How to these torrent sites profit then. If theye are not paid subscriber they must raise cash using other means. Traffic is expensive to host so they must make revenue from it. Do the sites have advert banners etc? If so then even visiting the torrent site builds legitimacy and revenue, so does googling for them for that matter.
Did you spend the requisite amount of money to qualify for the freebies?
You don't understand how torrent sites work.
There are two aspects to it... The torrent site and the torrent itself.
The torrent site hosts no more than a list of torrent "keys" and the descriptions of these keys. You click on the link, the key is downloaded into your torrent software, then the "door" is opened to the torrent traffic.
The torrent itself is a blob of information, being passed from computer to computer. One person starts it; "the seed." The others are called "leechers." The leecher pulls data from the seed, in small blocks. At the same time the leecher passes previously downloaded blocks to other leechers. When a leecher finishes downloading all of the blocks, they turn into seeds; only sending out the data.
Torrent sites skirt the law in the fact that they aren't actually hosting the pirated material. They are just hosting lists of pirated material. The material itself is floating out there in a sort of cloud, peer to peer fashion.
Torrent sites don't host data. Bittorrent works kind of like a web address (URL). You get the torrent file (The URL), and then you download from peers. Btw, torrenting has many legitimate uses, for example if you download World of Warcraft from Blizzard, you're actually torrenting it. The most famous torrent site (which I won't mention by name, since the last time I did that, my post was removed, even though pretty much everyone has heard of it...), doesn't really operate off of a profit at all.
There are other file sharing sites, most notably that one ran by the guy in New Zealand who was illegally extradited to the USA (and because of that, got off scott free). Those operate off of a paid membership. There isn't any way to "search" those files, though. Basically, only people "In the know" could download anything from there.
I am an I.T. professional and have been reading Boingboing, Slashdot and Arstechnica since 2003. Every computing tool can be used for good (White Hat, example torrenting World of Warcraft) or unethically (Black Hat).
Ok fool I am but idiot is pushing it,
yes I bought $60 of stuffand added them to the cart and downloaded the Dragon wrapped around her crotch and breasts outfit offline files too and put the appropriate place
E:\Documents\DAZ 3D\studio\My Daz Connect Library\data\cloud\install too in order to try that option
I am trying so hard too inspite of my utter dislike of the whole shmozzle
Be sure to copy the offline packages there, it deletes those files after it is done installing them.
All you should need to do after downloading the sep and sea files there is fire up the production version of 4.9 (there are offline package bugs in the last beta of 4.9), log in to Daz Connect at least once to authorize your connection, you can close out Daz Studio once it starts fetching metadata if you don't want the metadata updates for your products, then copy the files to that location and then right click on the smart content tab and select the option to install offline packages.
If that doesn't work for you talk to our customer service people and they should be able to help you with that.
Thanks for the background on torrents. I understand torrent is a technology not a lifestyle and one that was born legit. Still makes me wonder why so many participate in the torrent networks if there is no profit to it. I would expect risk would outweigh benefit - but then again not much makes sense to me anymore.
I too have been in IT a while (30+ yrs). Back in the 80's my employer was injecting nasty surprises in firmware so I know what payloads can lurk even in a few kb of script. Basically I always want to hold my software accountable and so if I can't buy it from a reputable source, I create it. Never been fond of exposing my systems to the risk as recovery time is money lost.
well it can wait then as I am not prepared to install the production build I am using DS4.7 still
there is no option tio install offline packages right clicking on the smart content tab in the latest beta so I presume thats the bug
This is an excellent example of why I personally detest most forms of license/protection schemes. Ultimately it is the honest user that gets "punished", while the dishonest users is not really affected. As in this example, sure, I can export to a cr2, but that means because of the actions of others (pirates and people who use their "products"), I am the one who is inconvenienced. This isn't "my first rodeo", I've had to deal with numerous different protection schemes over the past 30+ years, and I can't think of one that hasn't caused me some grief at some point (this is both as the end user of the product, and as the IT person who has to install and fix the end user problems). At one point I was even accused of trying to get a second license for free by support personnel (docking/undocking the laptop with the software in question changed the network card MAC address the license was keyed to - needless to say, that was the last product I bought from them, even though the issue was ultimately fixed - and appology given, but I refuse to do business with anyone that accuses me of trying to cheat them ).
Having had to spend a fair amount of time on the dark side of the web with a previous job, I can honestly say most companies who implement protection schemes simply don't get it, For the cracker, it's typically not monetary reasons that inspire him/her to do it, it's the challenge, and the faster he/she can do it (and the more expensive the retail product), the greater their status within their community. Also, as others have pointed out, the vast majority of those using warez/pirate stuff are not people who would buy anyway (though I do think there are some revenues lost, but I think the loss of revenue is often comparable to the cost of the so called protection). Now the big question is does DAZ 3D content represent enough of a challenge (status symbol) to be of interest to the would be cracker.
I can understand where DAZ3D is coming from, since their content products have had no protection at all, all the pirate has to do is purchase the product, then turn around and post it on a web site (or torrent). So, logically, with encrypted content, the pirate has to at least put some effort into making it useable before sharing it with the world. If the protection scheme (encryption) is designed properly, and requires a fair amount of personal time investment for the cracker, and that investment must be made on each file (i.e. a simple crack code generator can't be written that generates the proper code with the click of a button), then the posting of DAZ3D products for free on torrents and warez sites may be dramatically reduced, or even stop completely. Because of the relatively low cost of DAZ3D products (compared to Maya, Modo, C4D, etc.), and the fairly niche market (i.e. not as popular as many games), it may actually work. Unfortunately the only wat to know is for DAZ to try it out.
As for my future purchases of encrypted only content, it will probably be minimal at best. In order of preference, I use Carrara, DS, and Poser. Since G3F is not compatible with Carrara (yet ... maybe ... someday) or Poser, my purchases for G3F have been ..... well .... quite modest. It will have to be something very special for me to purchase encrypted content that is usable in DS only (yes, I could export/import - but TBH that is FAR from optimal), In fact, with the great sale on V7 Pro (picked the pro bundle up for under $12.00 with a PC+ coupon), I was going to put Lynsey for G3F in my cart as well (what a great looking character), but didn't when I saw she was encrypted DAZ Connect only. Now obviously her encryption status has noting to do with her usability in Poser since G3F isn't usable in Poser, but when (if?) DAZ finally gets G3F usable in Carrara, being encrypted her future use is limited to DS only (DAZ has indicated that encrypted content will not be usable in Carrara). I do really like her, and may at some point purchase her just to see if there are ways to get around the encryption (such as saving her out as a new character).
Going forward, I will probably completely avoid encrypted content, except in unusual cases. For me, it is a loss in product flexibility and compatibility with the software I use, which is ultimately a loss in overall product value. I'm not saying I'm going to boycott the DAZ store and only buy elsewhere, but I will say that in the purchase evaluation process encrypted content will inherently carry a strike against it for overall value. This does mean however that products without encryption will automatically carry more perceived value for me, and may well cause me to purchase more else where. I love Carrara and DS, they have brought me many hours of entertainment, and actually helped me through some difficult times. Coupled with the outstanding figures, and content provided by DAZ, I am quite grateful that DAZ has provided a creative outlet for me (someone who is NOT an artist - but enjoys being able to make nice images). I hope that as things more forward, I am able to continue to enjoy this hobby without hinderance from DRM protection schemes, but if it gets too bad, there are many other things I can do with my time (heck, I might even go ahead and upgrade to Poser11). I'll just have to wait and see what happens, and how intrusive this will, or wont, be.
As I said, quality sells. Plus, quality gets recognized, too. If people are stealing and trying to pass off stolen content as their own, they often get caught at some point. You really shouldn't be concerned with what somebody in Russia or China is doing. But even while piracy is super rampent in China, you still see Sony, Apple and Microsoft trying to release their hardware over there. People have to understand that in this day and age, anything can be stolen. I've had things I made (not Daz related) posted in places I never asked for and without any credit. That didn't make me quit.
As for any incorrect information about Daz's encryption getting tossed around, that should have been expected. DRM has a very nasty reputation, those 3 letters are reviled, and rightfully so. That perception may or may not be justified towards Daz, but it is still a negative perception that Daz must deal with because of their choice to include drm. The makers of Daz certainly did expect this, which is clear from the carefully crafted wording in their press release and FAQs. Even so, every company out there knows that turning to DRM, no matter what kind or how it works, will anger a portion of its customer base. And reading more about this particular DRM, I really am beginning to wonder what the point of it is. Why did Daz bother with something that can be such a PR nightmare? It seems that this encryption can be defeated numerous ways, otherwise nobody could transfer it to other programs. So you only need to sign into Daz to download it that one time. Nice, but again that is so easily defeated why bother? Textures can be altered, that means the textures can be uploaded anywhere. This will not stop pirates, it will not even slow them down.
Somebody mentioned how they wouldn't dare touch a key gen because of malware. That isn't a problem for a pirate (or anyone.) All you need to do is create a virtual machine and use this virtual machine to run whatever nasty stuff you want. Once you have the key you need, simply delete the virtual machine. No malware! A VC can be run off a flashdrive plugged into any machine, it doesn't even have to be your own. You can create copies of the original. I used to run Linux in a VC, just to play around with it. It is extremely easy to do.
As I said before, this only hurts the paying customers. Not the pirates. That will not change. Paying customers now have this extra hassel to deal with, it may be trivial to some, but not everybody. The very mention of encryption is enough to drive people away who have had bad experiences with drm. And the pirates will keep on pirating like nothing ever happened. Who exactly is this encryption for? One answer would be that it is for the creators, but again, if this is so easy to break, it does nothing for them, either.
This doesn't protect anyone's content, it only PRETENDS to. That...is even worse. They manage to anger the install base while simulateously failing to protect the creators content. That is a lose-lose. That is why drm fails, it only makes clueless investors happy. It doesn't serve anybody. And with the type of content that is specific to Daz, there is almost no way to impliment a more hardcore form of drm without sacrificing the freedom that Daz needs to survive. Again, a lose-lose situation.
Another question: Does it cost extra for a Daz content creator to use the encryption? Most forms of drm add an additional cost to production. That is one reason you often see indie games sold drm free-they can't afford to buy the drm.
Has anyone realised that content bought under these new conditions will not be able to just download their newly bought items and save them to disk.
Oh sure you could but the files would not be accessable directly. Yes you can download them, but to actually access them you can no longer decompress (ie, unzip) a file if you want to.
I know this is not a problem for some if not most people, but it is for me. I need a small level of control over what I have just purchased and don't want to have to go through some
"rigg-a-ma-roll" to get the files I just bought and then save them to disk knowing I can't access them directly when I want. As some have already said this is a DAZ level of control because of
some people doing bad or criminal thing with the encrypted files. Is it even possible to export the product files to a new location (Say perhaps a folder on my desktop) and then save it to
disk? If so this is the "rigg-a-ma-roll" I was talking about that I would have to do every time just to save my products to disk. Very frustrating...
Download the offline packages (.sep and .sea) and you can copy (not move, they will be deleted) them to the \Data\Cloud\Install folder at will. Then, optionally, go onlne to check for updates (and, optionally, redownload the offlien package files for your archive if there are updates).
That is a factual fallacy - many of the DS and Poser warez sites charge for access.
DS 4.9 will use the Connect version, if there is one. If the DIM files are identical (MD5 check) to the Connect files then Connect will copy them isntead of downloading.