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Genesis 3 with default UV. Tiling at 6
That is, and always has been, a personal choice, not a necessity. You've probably spent an hour or so reading and participating in this thread, an hour that might have been used more creatively, I know I have.
LIke many people, I dread when a new generation of characters come out because I know that I'm eventually going to be drawn in. Each time, I hold off as long as I can, until something in the new generation makes it too desireable to pass up.
Realistically, if DAZ folded tomorrow and took Renderosity and RDNA with it, I'd weep a little but there'd be a part of me, deep inside (mainly the part that manages my bank account), that would say, "finally, now I can get on with things!"
I've gathered a large enough runtime over the years (I started long before Poser came out, and was even lucky enough to work with beta versions of Poser 1.0) that I can pretty much do any of the stories in my head with what I have. The problem is that at least once a week some damned PA comes up with something that sparks my imagination and I think, "wow, I could use that like this and do a story about..." and then I purchase, test, more fun character testing, and... the time is gone. I barely get to working on the story before the next thing comes out, new story ideas come up, and it's back to the purchase, test, fun stuff part and the actual creative "work" falters once again.
There are a huge amount of people still using M4 and V4, lots of stuff still being produced for them (a very little bit here, but lots on the other sites) and yet those people -- who are quite happy to use M4 and V4 -- spend hours a week here (and possibly other places) complaining about all of the new generations of characters that've come up since the glory days. Despite having what has to be the largest available library for their characters, they're angry that new stuff is being done for the newer figures instead of theirs and they're probably spending hours a month telling us about it.
If I was smart (and I'm not, otherwise I'd be doing pictures right now instead of haunting the forums) I'd have stopped with Genesis. I held off on Genesis for a very long time, as most of the style I'm working on are either more toony or more "60s comic book" than realistic, but then they started coming out with toons, toons that I could mix infinitely with animals, aliens, clothing, genders, and BANG: time to update.
I held off for a while on the Genesis 2s, but some of the sci fi clothing and toons were too cool. I held off on Genesis 3 until recently; some of the characters are nice, some of the clothing is great, and a few of the aliens are too awesome to ignore (luckily they can be mixed in a scene with M4/V4/Gen1/Gen2 just fine -- adding some Gen3F doesn't mean we have to stop using M4... or even M2 in many cases).
For me, and I imagine many others (I hope I'm not totally alone on this) my initial focus was on creating graphic stories; over the years that focus has drifted to creating new characters and settings for those stories, because it's way, way, way more fun to cobble together a new character and setting than it is to do the heavy work and push that character through a whole story. It's just so much darn fun to grab Rawart's Cobra King and Queen Cobra and throw them into a starship that I just have to do that before moving forward on a story. Every now and then I sift through the thousands and thousands of renders I've done and if I stop to do the math, I realize that if each of those renders had been a panel in a graphic novel, I'd easly have a few dozen books finished... but each of those renders was just so darn fun!
Nothing I do is hyperrealistic; iRay is nice, but using it consumes my machine and I'm unable to do much else in the background while rendering, unlike 3DL. You can show me a hundred mesh picts and explain why muscle definition in G3F is inferior, but I look at Rawn's Massive package and it's more than good enough for me (I can't say how accurate it is, but for the art I do it's plenty good enough).
For many people, I can see that "converting and fixing and editing" is as much a creative endeavor for them as making a story for someone else. I can understand how much fun they have and what a feeling of acomplishment it is when they get it working. Actually building the model, making the textures, writing the cool utility that helps us do the things we like to do, for the PAs that's a huge, creative endeavor.
One person's "necessary evil" is another person's "raison d'etre" or "joy de vie". At the end of the day, each of us probably has more than enough in our runtime to create our "images, renders, little stories" without any "converting, and fixing and editing". When we bought that outfit for M3/M4/M5, we had a vision in our mind of how it would look and be used, and it probably still works as intended.
DAZ and the PAs constantly tempt us with newer, cooler things; if we decide to shift our focus to that instead of the stuff we're already using, well, that's on us, not them.
That said, the only -- ONLY -- reason anyone would feel the need to "convert, fix and edit" their characters to work with a new generation of DAZ model is if they actually believe the new model is better -- seriously, why else would you do it? -- which pretty much validates DAZ.
For me, the focus in the last few years has been having fun; now that I've laid all of my sins out here, I think I'm finally ready to shift the focus a little to balancing having fun and moving forward on the stories...
-- Walt Sterdan
hm its looking a little strange :)
For me (no UV Knowledge) is the G2 a lot better than G3
Don't call it games, but call it multiapp or easy export or general standard or so. The important thing is the change of approach, good or not good, standard or not standard, a big change or a small change, I don't know. In the personal, I will use a mix of G2/G3 because G3 expression and pose is good for me, and a lot of G2 cloth and morphs are well made ...but I understand people that have their own needs and standards and think that G3 is not for they. It would be ideal that this people could feel comfortable and sure using only G2 and don't G3, and instead of think that G3 is inferior simply understand that is different and very good for other people. To achieve this, more information than one page with old images is needed.
I am late to the party on this thread, but I wanted to agree that I still use V4 and M4. Also G1 and G2, every figure has its pros and cons, and I use them all. Sometimes it is because a piece of clothing I want to use only works well on G2. I have a lot of converters and most of the time they work great, but not every time. Anyway I use them all and it depends on what I am doing and what products I have. For example I have a lot more creature type morphs for Genesis 1 than I do for G2 (and almost none for V4/M4). So currently, if I am making a creature, I use G1. Depends on my runtime, and what I want to do.
G3 though doesn't have anything that interests me. I also didn't like the clothing conversion options out of the gate. It seems very backwards to me. I didn't see the "wear them all" product, that makes G3 a possible figure for me. However after reading all of this, and the compairsons of the G3 vs other figures, I think I will just wait unless I see something there is not anything close to on the other figures I already have. But one thing is for sure, I don't plan on buying much (if at all) for G3 at this point. I have too much invested in the others that meet my needs currently, I just hope that products are still created for G1 and G2. V4 does not have much new content here, but there is a LOT of new work on other sites such as Renderosity. Often the same product has versions for G2 and V4. I wish more PA's would do that and have several generations in the same product, especially with shoes. If I see a product that works with several generations, I will buy that one before all the others.
HA HA .. I always wondred what that noise was flying over head..lol
G2F Left, G3F Right.
Body builder morphs set to 1 on both. Lower abdomen and pelvis bent forward.
2nd Picture, without Body builder morph. Same pose.
No correctives on G2F, correctives enabled on G3F.
Torso bent backwards, pelvis not bent. Again, no correctives on G2F and correctives enabled on G3F. As before, G2F on the left, G3F on the right.
Hmm this has made for very interesting reading, thanks. I think I'll steer clear of G3 models for sure now.
Personally I wasn't liking the look of G3F anyway. All the characters look like ageing, crack-addicted supermodels to me. Maybe some would say that thats what a real female looks like but I, personally, prefer the look of G2F. Hell, even Thorne's stuff (and I'm a huge Thorne fan) is looking pretty bad on G3F. http://www.daz3d.com/genesis-3-female-head-morph-resource-kit is not a patch on Karynna or Ysabeau (sorry Thorne - I still love you!
).
...like I said. G3F is effectively the Millennium Woman 5 unimesh.
That was my thought, when I read the first post -- game compatibility. Especially with the inclusion of IRay in DS because PBR is big in game creation, too -- I think. :-)
I don't want to fuss with anyone and it's all a matter of personal preference, but I do like V7 very much. :-) I like her beauty and the way she "moves."
...but textures from previous generations are unusable. We basically need a new Texture Converter plugin which as I understand will never happen for the PC platform at least from 3DU from what I heard last year. So based on this we need to sink a lot of money into new texture files designed specifically for G3 as the old ones will not work. This alone is one huge strike for myself against adopting G3.
Correctives are not a bad thing. They got a bad rap in V4 days before automatic morph projection, because it was difficult to make clothing for them. That concern doesn't really make sense anymore, in most cases. From a user standpoint, why would you turn off correctives, unless you don't want the figure to bend well? They work automatically, behind the scenes.
As for edgeflow:
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/845208/#Comment_845208 ;
Or use the Blender baking technique - I know you go "Avert! Avert!" ro any mention of Blender, but the thread does have step-by-step instructions so just put a bit of masking tape over the application title bar and follow along.
I am, however, fairly sure that someone will come out with a stand-alone converter - though I don't have any advance information to confirm that.
To us old GROPOs (Ground Pounders) the only aircraft prettier than an A10 is an AH64 (And that is definitely circumstance based, depending on how much ordinance you need on a target.).
See my post above. The UV's are not compatible because the edge loops are in different places to facilitate better bending. (See the link in my previous post.) Just like the V3/M3 to V4/M4 change.
Yea, I got that feeling too and for the comics I'm working on I'm still relying mostly on V4.2 and M4. I'll (have to-) use Genesis and G2 for the next project, because like you said unfortunately new accessories are no longer made for the older figures and I was waiting literally for years to get some celtic outfits so I can turn my novel into a comic.
Personally I thought Genesis was still a great idea (just that I had invested in generatio 4 so much that by the time it came it was too late for my purposes). I found it was a great idea that you could get a set of clothing that would fit both genders (very useful when it comes to armor or uniforms!!!). But this feature they already destroyed again with Genesis 2 where once again we were back to having to buy every set twice for male and female... and that works only if there actually are equivalent sets for both genders.
Count me in as one who will effectively skip the Genesis3 figures
I recently made the jump from poser 6 up to poser pro 2014
and Daz studio 2.x up to Daz studio pro 4.7.
as a Character Animator I find the G1,G2 Figures along with animate2, Iclone pro+3Dxchange provides me with everything I will be needing for my animation work for years to come.
I am NOT a game developer and to be honest neither DAZ nor the so called poser pro "game dev" version is going to maek any serious headway with serious game developers as Autodesk has that Market locked down with ready made solutions for game makers.
As an aside, while I use Genesis and Genesis 2, I'm finding Iray really spruces up the potential of older stuff. While I'm not thrilled with some of the Genesis limits (particularly in the face), with realistic skin and hair? It can look amazing.
I have Victoria 4.2, I think I'll try a render with new stuff and see how well it comes out.
Truth be told, G3F is actually really nice to work with- she not only bends better, but you have to be really trying to irreversibly muck up a morph. As far as turning off the correctives, I don't even know where that comes from. As near as I can figure out, you really don't have a viable reason to do that unless you thought V3's bends were somehow attractive.
I have yet to run into a major issue with the mesh, and even if it were as bad as people want to make it out there are a hundred ways to make whatever changes you need to to suit your particular fantasy. At worst, you have to rearrange the mesh to get whatever effect you're looking for, and call it a day. It's entirely possible to make a morph to add muscularity and flexion to G3F if that's your desire.
Who knows? Maybe the rest of the folks here would even pay you for copies.
Or if you're really feeling ambitious, you can bake the effect you want into a normal or displacement map. For those that are pining over the lack of skin textures, there are three options:
1) Wait for the folks that do skin textures to get the work done and up for distribution.
2) Use the Blender technique to convert your favorites or build an automation process that'll do it for you (mouse macros are lovely things).
3) Start making skin textures yourself with bits of the skins in question (or even all-new skins).
All are equally valid, and it's not as difficult as you might think once you get the workflow sorted out. The first one may well take a couple of weeks to get right, but after that you get to the point where you can build out a character in less than a week. This isn't my first time transitioning to a new figure, and there are nearly always a few teething problems with anything you care to name.
Doesn't matter what it is. Software, hardware, content, you name it. You don't want to know how many prototypes engineers go through before they hit on the thing that works-- examine the history of aviation if you want a really good example. Lots of fun stuff in there. Or Rocketry. So many foulups...
But I digress. Jeane is a perfectly functional figure, and some of the characters I've seen thus far are outstanding. Of the four DAZ Original morphs, the only one yet I plan to take a pass on is Eva, and only then because I don't particularly care for the way she looks. I'll get Karen when I get the cash to do so, and I alreay picked up V7P and B7S. I understand that not everyone is super-wealthy, and that a new figure turning up that was entirely untelegraphed kindof rankles a bit.
Honestly, I'm in the same place financially. The biggest problem anyone seems to have is the lack of compatibility with skin textures, and even that can be worked around absent a converter. When that converter does arrive (and like Richard I'm absolutely certain it will), it'll probably be the best-selling single object on the store for weeks or months afterwards, follwoed by widespread adoption of the Genesis 3 line.
That's not to say your concerns aren't valid-- they are. You all have money stowed into this thing, and the arrival of a new figure doesn't actually affect that in any way. G2F is still being fairly widely supported, and V4, although ancient by comparison, is still going strong some places.
Maybe instead of worrying about what G3F can't do, we should be discussing what she can do.
We're all here because we're creative, yes? So let's do that. Use whatever tools, tricks, and workarounds that are in the magic box, and let's make something. I walked away after Kids 4, and came back to discover that the really neat stuff that was out now required that I completely change my workflow, learn different software, the whole nine yards. So I dropped five versions of Poser, fired up Studio, rebuilt what I could, and worked around the rest. If I can do that at my age with my lack of resources and infirmities, I'm reasonable sure that most everyone can.
I even managed to prefer Iray over Firefly and 3Delight, and I didn't think that would ever happen. Okay, not that I was ever all that fond of 3delight to begin with. It kept me buying versions of Poser much longer than I should have. Think of a new figure/software/etc as a chance to learn somthing, and give it a try. The base is free, and most of everything that you might need to dress it up is too, if you're willing to work at it, and prepared to fall short of your own expectations for the first few whiles. It's been twelve years in and out of 3D, and I still suck at lighting. But I'll get there someday. Props came easy, and once I got over the idea that screwy failures happen sometimes, I even managed to make some morphs that were worth the risk of putting up pictures. Mapping took awhile, but I've finally gotten the hang of most of that too.
You can do it. Might take a bit, but you can do it.
Got to say, that's a nice attitude.
I'm holding off on G3F morpsh and characters because there are too many all at once and I can't afford them all at once. I'm also praying and hoping that there will be a 64bit version of WINE that will enable me to run DS 64bit in Linux. As soon as there is I'll ditch Windows for good and get DS full time in Linux. When that's done I might consider G3 a bit more.
CHEERS!
...actually the ratio of new G3 to G2 content in the store is currently weighed heavily in favour of G3 (as is expected with any new figure/character release). The base is almost useless without the morphs and expressions (3 different products now instead of two making the initial investment a bit more expensive than in the past). I'll wait and see what comes out in the wash (as well as with my RL situation which is somewhat dodgy right now) and for the time being, stay with G2. Along with all the Genesis/G2 content already in my library and Iray I have enough to keep me busy for a while.
What would actually be a big help, would be to have an updated Skin Builder Pro as well as Skin Overlay resource content and a generic set of different base skin maps (like were made available for the Gen 4 figures) for G3 rather than having to lay out a pile of money for a bunch of individual characters in order to have a variety of different skins readily available.
A good set of eyebrowless skins would be handy, because then you can combine stuff from skin builder and so on.
Everyone keeps going about needing to buy expressions for G3F, you don't, the controls for are all built into the base.
Even though G3F is cool looking and all and well pretty much every PA is on the G3 bandwagon and left the other figures to fade away into obscurity.. There is still some issues which for some myself included is the serious lack of backwards compatability like the ease of converting V4 to Genesis and Genesis 2.. With G3 that seems to be no more and for me that is not good, because it was nice to be able to upgrade V3.V4 based figures to G1 and G2 for the better features of those figures relatively easy especially with the right plugins..
The other thing is the hassle of creating morphs for G3, Hexgon does not like G3 I tried to make some teeth morphs the way I had for G1 and G2 and when sent back to Studio rather than the two teeth I had changed all the teeth would change.. And like G1 in Sculptris you can't use Symetry on G3 but you can on G2 case of go figure..
In the end I might get some G3 stuff but only if there are converter plugins to be able to convert V3,V4,G1 and G2 figures and textures as I have too much invested in past figures to dump them for G3..
@Ghosty If all the teeth changed, make sure you're zeroing the figure before exporting-- the Mouth HD and Navel morphs are on by default, and they'll double up when you re-import the morph. It plays merry hob with ones dental work every time.
I made that mistake myself more than once ;)
As far as symmetry, G3F is just fine (one vert out of place and Maya refuses to play ball), I can't speak to Sculptris, but if you mirror on OBJ X, it should just work.
I have to say, looking at your comparisons... if you had asked me whcih figure was the newest, hosttest, bestest one... I'd have guessed the G2F one was G3F, just in terms of looking more advanced and properly wire-meshed. And knowing that the G2F one is what it is... I'd have guessed the G3F one, if not told beforehand, was V4 or Genesis. It looks *less* advanced, not more.
I had no intention of buying V7 or any of the *-7s right away at this stage, since my webcomic uses a very particular G6 character as its main star, and I like her too much to change her. But seeing this business about the muscles... at this stage, I have now dropped any plans to move to G7. That may, perhaps, change one day if DAZ fixes this but... otherwise I am with the OP. This mesh seems like a huge step backward.
As for the whole, 'it's better for game developers argument.' Well. If DAZ wants to be a game development engine rather than an artists' tool, maybe they should have warned us that this is what they were going to do. I'm not a game dev and I have no need of game-dev tools.
I keep seeing this phrase about "it's better for game developers" in connection with G3 and I'm not entirely sure where this came from. Michael Lane, who has done most of the DAZ Base figures, explained in another thread and I'm going to quote it here.
...so basically this is a whole new system of weight and UV mapping with Tri-Ax effectively having been tossed out the window. This would mean it is a complete break from the original "Genesis concept".
As I mentioned, I cannot help feel that G3F is in reality "the" Millennium Woman 5 Unimesh, as it was mentioned earlier that it is the "next step up" from V4 (Mil Woman 4).
I didn't read through all posts nor walls of text, but just by skimming through this thread, a lot looks like 'half knowledge' and decisions made based on that. For my purpose, which is basically rendered 2D illustration / stories, I can already see G3F behaving way more avanced than any of the previous figures could - I just love how the figure bends. Aditionally I can see the point as to why they changed mesh flow and this choice doesn't prevent e.g. dedicated muscle morphs from appearing. Certainly, I miss not being able to apply V4 textures directly for example, but there are workarounds for that and at some point I want to move to a new texture base anyway, so I will just do that with G3F in mind.
Wow, going through most of this post, I figured you would have a half/half dialogue...half would agree, the other half will defend G3F and Daz. I can see the OP's point, I can also see Walt's point as well. I haven't used G3F yet for anything, although I did by Bethany because she's unique although not quite like Olympia. I still feel that the bends and expressions for G3F stuff is not enough of a selling point to switch. As 3D artists, we are forever looking for the holy grail of realism with our art or that pop factor you would get from the other 3D apps, but along the way, we mentally limit ourselves thinking that the tools we have can not help us achieve this. G3F seems more like a game developers asset, and that's fine. But, like a lot of us, I've sanked money into models here every since 2003. This has to be the first time I've actively skipped a lot of new things. I was almost tempted to buy Karen, but I have so much superhero type stuff, why bother? I can't really add anything more that hasn't already been stated, but I do know that I will not be fully jumping on the G3F bandwagon either...and maybe not any new Genesis upgrades except the base, which will be included with upgrades to Daz Studio, which I do use. Now if we could just get some focus on Carrara 9. :)