AOA Lights vs UberLights vs Daz Standard Lighting

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  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 36,376
    edited March 2015

    ...Cybersox13, well said. Thank you.


    When it comes to photography, I'm a member of the "point & shoot club". Sometimes I get lucky. and that makes it all the more fun.

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • Age of ArmourAge of Armour Posts: 437
    edited December 1969

    Kyoto Kid said:
    Barubary said:
    To me it seems, while UE might be the more capable product, Advanced Ambient has much documentation and is quite a bit easier to learn to use. UE, counterintuitively, seems like the more advanced option, hard to get into, but overall a bit more powerful, the only drawback seems to be the flagging feature.


    However, what I find a bit disturbing is that AoA seems to have dropped off the face of the planet. And DAZ didn't address to conflict between the advanced lights and the Studio 4.7 at all. So I am not sure if the Advanced Lights line of items is really future-proof. Maybe DAZ breaks compatibility even more in the next update and no one might be there to fix it.

    Are we certain there's a conflict at all? Reinstalling my AoA lights caused them to work perfectly again for me.


    ...I did the same and the flagging with SSS still doesn't work right. It was also no help with the Atmospheric and Graphic Art Cameras either.


    As to AoA "disappearing", he also created "real" wearable armour and I understand, working with the metals had some nasty side effects. I am hoping he is alright. Went to his site but there were no updates as to what was happening.

    I am surprised Daz has not contacted him.

    Hi all,

    I have not read the whole thread yet but wanted to pop in and let everyone know that I am still alive and still working full time on 3d items for release at DAZ.

    DAZ and I are in contact fairly regularly so rest assured someone would probably say something if I croaked haha.

    Other than difficulty installing, the only issues I was aware of were with the volumetric cameras. The source of the bug is due to a change of internal code on one key brick in DAZ Studio's Shader Mixer. I have notified DAZ about it and hope that they will revert that brick in an upcoming DS release.

    This change not only affects some of my cameras but may break anybody's shader which uses Shader Mixer's Fixed Variable brick. I feel it would be best for DAZ to revert the brick rather than needing to sift through and updating all Shader Mixer made items.

    Temporarily updating the cameras at this stage would be a bit messy... If I do an update 3 of the cameras would only work in 4.7 and there would need to be a separate version for those who use DS 4.6. Then, if DAZ later reverts that brick back, the cameras would need to be updated again.

    Reading this thread is the first I have become aware of any issue where the AoA SSS shader is not properly being flagged by the lights. I will look into it and see what can be done.

    Thank you all so much for your concern and your continued support!

    William

  • SpitSpit Posts: 2,342
    edited December 1969

    YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Welcome back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Age of ArmourAge of Armour Posts: 437
    edited December 1969

    Spit said:
    YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Welcome back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Thanks :) Never left though... Except for a few days off for Christmas and jury duty. Just been working hard and, consequently, fell behind on the forums and email.

    Several projects are in the works, one is near completion :)

  • FixmypcmikeFixmypcmike Posts: 19,013
    edited December 1969

    Glad to hear everything's okay, was getting a bit worried.

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  • CybersoxCybersox Posts: 8,032
    edited December 1969

    I am still alive

    Well, it was worth sticking with this thread just to know that. Unless, of course, this is a "Diamonds Are Forever" type plot and this is actually Ernst Stavro Blofeld pretending to be AoA. You don't have a couple of Kung Fu girls named Bambi and Thumper hanging around there someplace, do you?

    Agent 0013

  • SpitSpit Posts: 2,342
    edited December 1969

    wowie said:
    Spit said:
    I still have a problem even remembering the steps taken for UE2 to equal AoA speed. If you all have worked it out, good for you.


    I think you may have misunderstood me. I"m saying that with the same settings, UE2 is just as fast (actually, faster) than AoA's Ambient Light. The only time UE2 renders slowly is when you use a lot of surfaces with opacity that accepts occlusion. AoA's Adv Ambient Light deals with this by flagging the surfaces and switch to using alternative samples when rendering. This could be achieved with UberSurface and UberSurface2's shading override controls, which works independent of the lights.

    But that's the point of using AoA. The flagging IS the main reason I love AoA's lights. It's a major appeal and I don't like that it's being downplayed. Why should I have to apply US or US2 and fiddle the settings to get the same speed? I have several shaders I use and play with and not all of them use US. Besides major figures and their skin are often nowhere near my renders. I also use AoA's primitive hitmode where appropriate and enjoy its speed.

    That said I have nothing against UE2 and ubersurface and use them both on occasion but for what I do the majority of my renders utilize AoA.

    If you're using UE2's indirect light mode and compare it to AoA's, which is an AO only light, that's a case of apples and oranges.

    I'm not.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 36,376
    edited December 1969

    Spit said:
    YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Welcome back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Thanks :) Never left though... Except for a few days off for Christmas and jury duty. Just been working hard and, consequently, fell behind on the forums and email.

    Several projects are in the works, one is near completion :)
    ...good to know you are alright As I understand the creation of real armour had a some "side effects" and I was worried .

    Still love your lights and cameras as the are so intuitive to use.

  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited March 2015

    Spit said:

    Why should I have to apply US or US2 and fiddle the settings to get the same speed?


    Because essentially, what you're doing is using alternative samples via the light. If you do it via US and US2 shading override, you're setting the shading rate in the shader per surface. This is more inline to how it's generally done (ie SSS shading rate, which is also used by AoA's own Subsurface Shader).

    Barubary said:

    You're right, I apologize, but that doesn't really change anything as I would say the same about the AoA SSS Shader I said about the lights - it's trying to be more accessible to people, not trying to advance surface shaders..

    Barubary said:

    With little effort and limited understanding of 3d they produce better results is what I was trying to say :D Again it's not about the capabilities of the product but more about it's accessibility.

    How is it more accessible? As I pointed out earlier, most of the parameters have been present with omnifreaker's lights and ds Shader lights for some time. If users wanted an out of the box lightset, there's a plethora of it available, either in the forms of freebies or commercial ones.


    Again, I absolutely agree that only time and effort will make someone really good at something..

    I'd say, the result of your renders shows how much you put into it. That can be time, effort, money or all of them. Like any other medium, any artists serious about doing things needs to learn what the tools can do and how to properly use them.


    But you don't have to shut out everyone who maybe just doesn't have the same amount of free time or the same passion.

    I have trouble comprehending what you mean by that sentence. What I've done in this thread is post information, with test results, pointing out that omnifreaker's UE2 renders just as fast as AoA's Adv Ambient light with the SAME settings. There are no magic dials or tricks I've used specific to UE2 or to sandbag AoA's lights. The only exception is when you have a lot of surfaces with opacity maps. But with the proper shader and settings, that can be avoided and/or minimized.

    I've also post info showing proof that contrary to what people think/believe and some erroneously concluded, AoA's light flagging feature isn't 'broken' by DS 4.7. Of all four shaders that's freely available for testing (ds default shader, HSS, US and AoA's Subsurface shader), only the Subsurface shader completely fails when you enable flagging.

    Like I said earlier, I'm open to arguments saying otherwise, with test cases and test results that can be repeated and reproduced.

    Post edited by wowie on
  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited December 1969


    Reading this thread is the first I have become aware of any issue where the AoA SSS shader is not properly being flagged by the lights. I will look into it and see what can be done.

    Thank you all so much for your concern and your continued support!

    William

    That's good to hear. I'm surprised that after all this time no one correctly determined what was happening.

  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited December 1969

    Not to mention that if you really want to get the best results in terms of realism, your time is better invested in learning how to use an external renderer like Lux or Reality, or moving up to a more advanced program like Vue or Carrara (or, for that matter, Blender which does quite a bit more than DS and is free across the board.

    Reality is not 'an external renderer'. The renderer is Luxrender.

    I do wish more people be much aware of what DS and 3delight can do, when you setup your lights and materials correctly. A UE2 render, with two standard ds Distant Lights. Shader is UberSurface2.

    2 minutes 43.36 seconds

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  • BarubaryBarubary Posts: 1,175
    edited December 1969

    wowie said:

    Barubary said:

    But you don't have to shut out everyone who maybe just doesn't have the same amount of free time or the same passion.

    I have trouble comprehending what you mean by that sentence.

    That UberSurface and UberEnvironment are harder to get into than the AoA products.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 36,376
    edited December 1969

    ...yes,

  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited December 1969

    Barubary said:

    That UberSurface and UberEnvironment are harder to get into than the AoA products.

    I could understand how UberSurface/UberSurface2 baffles newbies because of all it's bells and whistles, but that's what you get with a more complete surface reflection models. In the case of shaders, instead of having a more complete, accurate surface models, you're saying you prefer one that is less complete, less accurate one because you didn't or couldn't figure out how to set it up.

    As for UE and UE2, the parameters used for the ambient occlusion only mode are actually less than AoA's Adv Light and can also be found with it. So, UE/UE2 has much less to figure out and yet it is harder to use?

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 36,376
    edited December 1969

    ...well, hopefully a fix will be in the offering.

    I've used both and prefer the Advanced lights as they suit my needs and the style I am wanting to achieve.


    If I want photo realism without waiting days for it, I'll find some way to scrape up the funds Octane and a 4 GB Nvidia GPU.

  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited March 2015

    Kyoto Kid said:
    ...well, hopefully a fix will be in the offering.

    Now that's someone have actually correctly define the problem, it shouldn't be that complicated to fix.


    If I want photo realism without waiting days for it, I'll find some way to scrape up the funds Octane and a 4 GB Nvidia GPU.

    Days, heh? I'd rather use 3delight that renders in minutes rather than Luxrender or Octane that renders in hours. Even vray renders in minutes if you know what you're doing.

    Just don't forget that you will need to set aside some money for the power bill when using those GPU power hogs.

    Post edited by wowie on
  • KhoryKhory Posts: 3,848
    edited December 1969

    I suspect that the lack of respect that 3delight gets is due to studio being free. People assume, wrongly, that it is just not as valuable a tool as some other renderer that they need to pay for. They want to forget that it is used all the time for serious professional work. The same is true for lights like the UE2. People can and do get amazingly realistic results with it all the time. I know that Stonemason does some of his promos with the UE2 and they are just as realistic as renders done via a different renderer.

    Do you have to learn how to use the UE2.. well yea but you have to learn to use AoA's lights or different render engine so that excuse is sort of a wash as to why they are not usable. The same is true for how long a render may take. Yes there are times where they take a really long time, but when they are set up properly most of the time that is the exception rather than the rule.

    None of this means I think that people shouldn't be using AoA's lights mind you. They clearly have their place and there are times when they are the ideal choice. But there are other times when an UE2 set up is a move valid choice for a render. Excluding one or the other for some reason or other simply disadvantages the user and gives them more limited choices with perhaps less chance of the ideal render that the user is looking for.

  • CypherFOXCypherFOX Posts: 3,394
    edited March 2015

    Greetings,

    wowie said:
    I do wish more people be much aware of what DS and 3delight can do, when you setup your lights and materials correctly. A UE2 render, with two standard ds Distant Lights. Shader is UberSurface2.

    2 minutes 43.36 seconds

    Is the US2 on the hair, the skin, what? How much tweaking did you have to do to get it there, or more accurately, how much of an expert in UE2 and US2 are you? How much time would your average user spend in 'tool time', as opposed to 'task time', trying to get exactly the right combination of settings, as opposed to adding an ambient light that 'just works', without tweaking?What quality level settings do you have for the UE2, and the US2? And your render settings?

    Creating a default scene using the builder, I tweaked the skin and model a bit, reset all my render settings to 'stock' values. I put two 'Create Distant Light's (75% 'On' w/raytraced shadows, and 50% 'Specular only' w/no shadows), and a UE2 (66% intensity) into an image, make one of the distant lights offset a bit from the other.

    * I render and it looks like crap (typical UE2 shadow schmutz), so I set to 4xHi quality. It takes 4m17s.

    * I disable the UE2 using the eye icon, and use a raw AoA ambient with 66% intensity. Render takes 3m9s.

    (It didn't happen in this order, I did a ton of test renders in between, getting to the point where the rest of the image was reasonable, and the AoA was first to render once I got there, but it doesn't matter that much. Weird side-note; neither UE2 nor 'no ambient' seems to render the reflection map in her eyes; that's only there in AoA's ambient lighting. No idea why that would be. It also seems like the specular-only light just isn't present in the UE2 and 'neither' renders, but I double-checked that it was.)

    * Just for the heck of it, using neither takes 2m15s.

    It's a combination of faster to render, and faster to 'just go'. The quality settings were the only thing I messed with in UE2, but I didn't even need to do that in AoA, and it rendered just as good, and faster. If you're telling me I need to mess with US2 in order to get UE2 to be as fast as AoA's lights, then you've added even more task time, and the complexity of US2 to the mix. (I don't use the AoA lights for 'flagging'. I use them to provide a level of ambient light, without having to worry about 'schmutz' showing up in my shadows, and it just works.) I have memories of fighting with UE2 to get my renders looking clean and not agonizingly slow, and I don't have to anymore.

    I'll also note that the above render has very little actual shadow, which is where it's really a pain to get UE2 to render schmutz-free AND still be fast, but almost all my renders have medium to large areas of shadow.

    And no, my character's skin doesn't look nearly as good as yours, but the render times are already a good bit higher, at least on my 3.4GHz i7. I have no idea what settings you're using, but they sure aren't ones that are easy to replicate using the materials provided with the characters...

    -- Morgan

    p.p.s. The order of the images below appears to be UE2, AoA, Neither.

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    Post edited by CypherFOX on
  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited December 1969

    Cypherfox said:
    Is the US2 on the hair, the skin, what? How much tweaking did you have to do to get it there, or more accurately, how much of an expert in UE2 and US2 are you?

    I think most of the surfaces uses US2. The MATs is the M6BjornSSS MAT available in my Photo Studio Kit 2: http://www.daz3d.com/photo-studio-kit-2

    I did raise the fresnel strength for the 1st specular channel so the skin is more in place with the soft lighting. The light is a rework of the older Photo Studio Kit: http://www.daz3d.com/photo-studio-kit

    Cypherfox said:
    How much time would your average user spend in 'tool time', as opposed to 'task time', trying to get exactly the right combination of settings, as opposed to adding an ambient light that 'just works', without tweaking?

    Depends on the user. If you don't want to spend time researching lights and materials, there are those two kits above.

    What quality level settings do you have for the UE2, and the US2? And your render settings?

    Actually, the renderer's option is pretty much set to default. The only thing I've changed is t gamma correction set to enabled, gamma is set to 2.2 and I've enabled progressive rendering to use the raytrace hider.

    I think I've already posted my UE2 settings a few posts back. Basically, shading rate 16, max error 0.1, bias 0.050, max trace distance 20 and occlusion samples 128. I generally set UE2 to do ambient occlusion with soft shadows, but for that render above, I use directional shadows since I'm using the included KitchenHDRI.

    I...the render times are already a good bit higher, at least on my 3.4GHz i7. I have no idea what settings you're using, but they sure aren't ones that are easy to replicate using the materials provided with the characters...

    I'm just using a Core i7 4770K. Don't know what you're model is.

  • CypherFOXCypherFOX Posts: 3,394
    edited December 1969

    Greetings,

    wowie said:
    Depends on the user. If you don't want to spend time researching lights and materials, there are those two kits above.So not something that's going to work for, e.g., Belle 6 or Giselle without a large investment in time.

    Actually, the renderer's option is pretty much set to default. The only thing I've changed is gamma correction set to enabled, gamma is set to 2.2 and I've enabled progressive rendering to use the raytrace hider.

    I think I've already posted my UE2 settings a few posts back. Basically, shading rate 16, max error 0.1, bias 0.050, max trace distance 20 and occlusion samples 128. I generally set UE2 to do ambient occlusion with soft shadows, but for that render above, I use directional shadows since I'm using the included KitchenHDRI.

    Okay, things that were different are that my shading rate was 8, bias 0.1, max trace distance the default of 150. (This is the settings that 4xHi sets.) I think it used Occlusion w/directional shadows as default, but since I'm not using an HDRI, it's probably the same as w/ soft shadows. So I think my settings are roughly comparable to yours, minus the deep work in US2 to make a top-notch skin.

    I'm just using a Core i7 4770K. Don't know what you're model is.I'm using an iMac, 3.4 GHz Intel Core i7, so my results are going to be slower than yours in general.

    You do good skins, the photo kits look nice. You're obviously an expert at US2 and UE2, so this stuff all comes easily to you.

    -- Morgan

  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited March 2015

    Cypherfox said:
    So not something that's going to work for, e.g., Belle 6 or Giselle without a large investment in time.

    Somewhat out of topic, but here goes.

    Actually, you can use the Bree and Phillip MATs as a base. The MATs don't use the specular maps by default, so it's just loading diffuse and bump maps. Just load any of your MATs so they're loaded into the scene and applied to the figure. Then apply either the Bree or Phillip MATs with Cmd+Click so you get the option to apply the new MATs, but retain the textures. One additional step you need to do is load the diffuse maps for skin, lips and nails into the 2nd diffuse channel. Make sure to adjust the UV layout if they're different.

    If you want to use specular maps, load them up in the specular strength slot and set the strength to 100%. If they look too shiny, adjust the fresnel strength until you have the desired shininess (less fresnel, more specular).

    There are some diffuse textures which has too much baked in illumination. These will need diffuse color adjustment to either the 1st diffuse or 2nd diffuse (or both). Thankfully, that's pretty easy to do now with IPR in DS 4.7.


    Okay, things that were different are that my shading rate was 8, bias 0.1, max trace distance the default of 150. (This is the settings that 4xHi sets.) I think it used Occlusion w/directional shadows as default, but since I'm not using an HDRI, it's probably the same as w/ soft shadows. So I think my settings are roughly comparable to yours, minus the deep work in US2 to make a top-notch skin.

    As Mustakettu pointed out in wancow's 3delight lighting and surface thread, the default max trace distance is too high if you're just using UE2 as an AO light. It does look great if you switched to UE2 indirect light with directional shadows. You'll get cool things like color bleeding at that value. You do need to use a HDRI to get that though. Without a HDRI image, UE2 will fall back into soft shadows mode and you won't get the color bleeds.

    Post edited by wowie on
  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited March 2015

    Cypherfox said:
    I'm using an iMac, 3.4 GHz Intel Core i7, so my results are going to be slower than yours in general.


    Just looked up the specs, if it's a Core i7 3770 (used in the 2012 model, I think), it shouldn't be that much different. Drop down the max trace distance so the occluded area is much less. Should be faster overall. And as I noted earlier, make sure that surfaces with opacity maps have the Occlusion Shading Mode set to Override and the shading rate override is set to 128. I'm thinking the hair and all those leaves.


    * I disable the UE2 using the eye icon, and use a raw AoA ambient with 66% intensity. Render takes 3m9s.

    I'm assuming what you mean by raw is that you only changed the intensity. I checked the settings and the default values for AoA's Adv Ambient Light are shading rate 16, max trace distance 250, max error 0.50 and bias is 0.50. In comparison, using the 4xHi settings with UE2 means you're using shading rate 8, max error 0.1 and bias is 0.1 (max trace distance is unchanged at 150).

    Obviously, they're not using the same settings. With non progressive rendering, the UE2 render will very likely be slower due to lower shading rate. And there's also the hair and those leaves.

    Some notes about your setup:

    I advise against using specular only lights. I know that's it is common practice to use them, but they're not realistic at all. If you want to setup your lights correctly, then make sure they emit both diffuse AND specular, just like real world lights. So, you should set them up like you do with Luxrender or Octane.

    Rethink that scene setup - does your scene have more direct or indirect illumination? If its indirectly lit, there's more indirect light and less direct light. Vice versa for directly lit scenes. Since UE2 and AoA's Adv Ambient Light are AO lights, treat them as indirect light. If there are going to be a lot of shadows, then you will have to 'break' the indirect light between the ambient light and bounce lights. If you don't like UE2's indirect/bounce GI mode, you can fake bounce lights with the linear point light with very soft shadows.

    Post edited by wowie on
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 36,376
    edited March 2015

    wowie said:
    Kyoto Kid said:
    ...well, hopefully a fix will be in the offering.

    Now that's someone have actually correctly define the problem, it shouldn't be that complicated to fix.


    If I want photo realism without waiting days for it, I'll find some way to scrape up the funds Octane and a 4 GB Nvidia GPU.

    Days, heh? I'd rather use 3delight that renders in minutes rather than Luxrender or Octane that renders in hours. Even vray renders in minutes if you know what you're doing.

    Just don't forget that you will need to set aside some money for the power bill when using those GPU power hogs.
    ...GPU rendering in Lux is still in development. The current stable version (1.3.1)and beta (1.4) are still fairly limited in quality though there is to be a marked improvement in the 2.x release as I understand. Again Lux has abandoned further development of their hybrid CPU/GPU boosted mode due to lack of performance and other issues.

    Even with the new Out Of Core render mode (basically Octane's version of hybrid rendering), Octane is still pretty fast as it makes use of both CPU and GPU cores. With this mode one doesn't need an insanely powerful GPU with say 8 - 12 GB of VRAM as the GOU primarily handles the Geometry while any overload for the textures is handed off to the CPU. So one could use a GPU with 3 - 4 GB and still get decent render time performance as well as high quality results.

    Lux on the other hand is glacially slow because it's best quality is still pure CPU mode. There is also a bug in the latest version of Reality where it will not display materials settings of older scene files and scenes processed in previous versions of the plugin.

    The advantage of unbiased render engines like Octane, Maxwell, and VRay is they use physically accurate models for lighting without tricks or hacks.

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • KhoryKhory Posts: 3,848
    edited December 1969

    I decided to run a couple of tests myself. I started with one of my own UE2 sets just because I knew what I would end up with color wise and it already had 2 spots in the set. I used DO Anna (V6) and the V6 shape but not HD because as wondrous as it is its going to add to my render time and these were just tests. I did not alter the skin settings in any way (though I would really want the spec increased at least a bit for a major render) and used the SSS set at 75%.

    First I rendered with the UE2 using Wowie's setting so we were all working from the same base on that. The UE2 was at 40%. Render time on my 7 year old not state of the art even then computer was 5.40. Then I swapped that for the AoA ambient which I ended up going with at 60% though it could have gone higher. AoA time was 5.13.

    I also did a couple with the gamma on. Intrestingly enough if you use gamma correct (2.2) the UE2 time increased by 1 second. When I ran the AoA with the gamma on the time increased by 1.36.

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  • BarubaryBarubary Posts: 1,175
    edited March 2015

    wowie said:
    Barubary said:

    That UberSurface and UberEnvironment are harder to get into than the AoA products.

    I could understand how UberSurface/UberSurface2 baffles newbies because of all it's bells and whistles, but that's what you get with a more complete surface reflection models.

    That's right. And pretty much all of what I've been saying.



    In the case of shaders, instead of having a more complete, accurate surface models, you're saying you prefer one that is less complete, less accurate one because you didn't or couldn't figure out how to set it up.

    I don't think I said anything about my own preferences at any point in this thread.

    As for UE and UE2, the parameters used for the ambient occlusion only mode are actually less than AoA's Adv Light and can also be found with it. So, UE/UE2 has much less to figure out and yet it is harder to use?

    Yes. Presumably, that's mostly because of the documentation, which I think I said before as well.

    Post edited by Barubary on
  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited December 1969

    Again, out of topic, but here goes.

    Kyoto Kid said:

    ...GPU rendering in Lux is still in development. The current stable version (1.3.1)and beta (1.4) are still fairly limited in quality though there is to be a marked improvement in the 2.x release as I understand. Again Lux has abandoned further development of their hybrid CPU/GPU boosted mode due to lack of performance and other issues.

    1.4 have already been released.

    Kyoto Kid said:

    Even with the new Out Of Core render mode (basically Octane's version of hybrid rendering), Octane is still pretty fast as it makes use of both CPU and GPU cores. With this mode one doesn't need an insanely powerful GPU with say 8 - 12 GB of VRAM as the GOU primarily handles the Geometry while any overload for the textures is handed off to the CPU. So one could use a GPU with 3 - 4 GB and still get decent render time performance as well as high quality results.

    Octane is GPU only. There's also texture memory slots to consider,, depending on the card you're using.


    Lux on the other hand is glacially slow because it's best quality is still pure CPU mode. There is also a bug in the latest version of Reality where it will not display materials settings of older scene files and scenes processed in previous versions of the plugin.

    Don't use NVIDIA cards with Luxrender. For best performance you need to use AMD cards. As for Reality, try Luxus. Didn't even need an update to use even the latest builds of Luxrender.


    The advantage of unbiased render engines like Octane, Maxwell, and VRay is they use physically accurate models for lighting without tricks or hacks.

    I would say they're less biased, but certainly not unbiased. I think the only unbiased renderer is Mitsuba. If it still does things like MIS and Russian roulette sampling, it's still biased. Just because you employ Metropolis Light Transport or path tracing doesn't mean you're automatically 'unbiased'.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 36,376
    edited March 2015

    ...since day one, Maxwell Render was and still is a fully unbiased engine.

    As to Lux 1.4, that is still a beta and has issues with Reality. The next full public "stable" release will be 2.0.

    The Octane 2.2 build introduced Out of Core rendering which as I mentioned uses both GPU and CPU resources (check out the Unbiased Renders thread for more details).

    Of course I am aware that Nvidia's OpenCL development lags behind AMD's. I have two 7950 HRs that I've had pretty much sitting on standby for the the release of Lux 2.0. However Reality needs to be able to accommodate the improved GPU rendering option before I'd even bother with it. Since I already paid for Reality (and know how to use it), not about to put out more from my meager budget for Luxus.

    Octane on the other hand is already there with the Out of Core option. I would no longer need a Quadro to get enough of VRAM to use it.


    ...but again,this could all be moot anyway as AoA is looking into the situation with the Advanced lights.

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited December 1969

    Barubary said:

    I don't think I said anything about my own preferences at any point in this thread.

    Yes. That's my assumption.

    Barubary said:

    Yes. Presumably, that's mostly because of the documentation, which I think I said before as well.

    You did so yes.

    I agree omnifreaker should've documented most of the features of his products better, but again I fail to understand how that translates into this sentence.

    But you don't have to shut out everyone who maybe just doesn't have the same amount of free time or the same passion.

    That's like saying he purposely did that.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 36,376
    edited March 2015

    ...whereas Age of Armour provided excellent documentation for the Advanced lights (and did so as a PDF instead of a video) . This is part of which in my book, makes them more "accessible".

    Same for the SSS shader.

    To really get the a good handle on out of Omnifreaker's Uber lighting and surface tools, one needs to sift through several different threads and/or go online to search for video tutorials.

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited December 1969

    Kyoto Kid said:
    ...since day one, Maxwell Render was and still is a fully unbiased engine.
    I would say that it's a physically correct renderer, but I wouldn't say it's unbiased. I've wrote a post on that unbiased thread, so I won't go into that here.

    Kyoto Kid said:
    As to Lux 1.4, that is still a beta and has issues with Reality.
    The next full public "stable" release will be 2.0.

    I think it is the other way around. Reality is the one who has issues with Luxrender 1.4.
    And here's the release announcement - http://www.luxrender.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=11533&sid=4c8673ecc79d32d2e3499a8cf298912d

    ...whereas Age of Armour provided excellent documentation for the Advanced lights (and did so as a PDF instead of a video) . This is part of which in my book, makes them more "accessible".

    Same for the SSS shader.

    To really get the a good handle on out of Omnifreaker's Uber lighting and surface tools, one needs to sift through several different threads and/or go online to search for video tutorials.

    Better for novice users because it is accessible. I can agree to that. But saying AoA''s lights are better because they're faster is just incorrect. And so far I've not seen one example that shows otherwise.

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