I'm trying to make a budget for an animation project. I may need experienced Dazzlers!
Deadly Buda
Posts: 155
Ha, yes I know "Dazzlers" is pretty cheezy, but you know what I mean. Anyway...
I am making a budget for an animated project that uses Daz as the base animation program. Thus, I might need about 30 people that would be available to work 6-12 months, 40 hours a week, and that are knowledgeable in the following areas:
1. Aniblocks, Puppeteer, Morphs, the new IK system, and all things related to animating bones and morphs in Daz3d.
2. Face Transfer, Head Shop, LipSync, Anilip.
3. Anisound
4. Costume/Clothing expert, D-Force, character and asset transfers via GenX and similar programs
5. Modellers, expert in modifying assets in Hexagon, Cinema 4d, Modo and Lightwave especially.
6. Set builders/Environment builders/Prop experts
7. Iray Lighting Expert
8. Networking and Asset management across computers, platforms, render-nodes, familiarity with SceneOptimizer.
9. Special effects Wiz: Particles, Texture Animator, Sweat and water, magic spells, dirt and a great working knowledge of After Effects/Compositing and various plug-ins.
10. Familiarity with mCasual's plug-ins
Please send me a private message with some links to your work, what you did on the clips/images, your experience, jobs and what your compensation requirements would be. Most everyone will be working remotely, but let me know if you would be available to move if necessary. If you are comfortable posting all this publicly in this thread that is fine, too.
This is not an official job offering or call at this point. But I need to discern the available talent pool to construct the budget whilst compiling a list of leads to contact if the project makes it to the next phase of development.
Best regards,
Joel Bevacqua
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Comments
If you have that kind of cash why not use software better than DS for animation?
Because I like Daz. I think it's better than the big guys, personally.
LOL, you are one of the few when it comes to animation
6-12 months 40 hours a week actually sounds about right if having to use DAZ studio
and that's just the rendering
Its pretty expensive to make a full length animations using daz studio with a team of people, It be a great project to attempt. Daz does make great animations if you got the patients for it., its not the animation part that cost so much But the cost of rendering & gaming license to share assets to satisfy the Daz Studo ELUA that is usually the breaking point for most people because of the cost..
I'm a story animator with over 10 years experiences.& I know every single part to making and film editing animations using daz studio . But for me to work on a project like your requesting as a team member I would have to be contracted as a employee because it be a full time job. The scene building & asset gathering is incredible costly, because in order to share all the assets within the team that is needed between team members such as animators and texture artist, sound engineers, etc to meet the Daz ELUA. you would likely need to purchase a lot of game licenses for each asset bought and shared. Did you have a plan for sharing product assets & scenes & animation files like a cloud space or steam that team members can sign into the project for collaborations?
examples of my work . https://www.youtube.com/c/IvySummers
But to give you some idea what you are looking at for film cost.
If I made a Iray short film like this below for a client it would run about $900 that include, Asssets, animating, lighting, the render cost for 38,897 png keyframes = 31 mp4 scenes = 21/2 minute short film with, post work, sound files, film editing composting & uploading. I always have believed and often mentioned if someone could pull a team together using daz studio they could make a heck of a animations. All it takes is $$$
Please enjoy my film Best viewed in 1080HD
Depending on the creative flow, certain programs are better for different types of people or end results wanted. This project is more independent spirited so the type of people that are attracted to Maya and would automatically want to work on teams for a big Hollywood project... not the mentality for this project.
C'mon people, stick up for Daz! LOL. I would think after 26,000 posts you'd be a true-believer????!!!
Thanks Ivy for the input. Some nice stuff!
I use DAZ content and render lots of crappy animations
I rarely use DAZ studio because it is too slow for my use
what I do is not what you are looking for as I mostly only do game engine quality renders not iray PBR, I use Carrara, iClone, UE4 and sometimes Twinmotion and Poser
Ivy is probably your best advisor as most I know use other softwares
she is the main DAZ studio animator
others use Blender as well as the pro softwares like C4D, Maya etc
Let's think about staff costs for the animators. 24 weeks (2 weeks vacation out of 6 mths), 40 hrs per week, 30 people, say $15/hr (minimum, for anyone with half a clue) gives <sound of brain whirring> $432k, even before licences or other software/asset costs and assuming no sickness, maternity/paternity, jury duty yada yada...make it half a million dollars. Yikes.
With a team of 30 you will need 3-4 managers/admins on top. I've not even considered director, art director, designer, editor, sound editor and so on.
Also consider Daz Studio has no way for these animators to collaborate remotely (presumably they are not located in one place), so lots of overhead there. It doesn't really have an IK system, not like in other animation software anyhow, so that will hit productivity too. It doesn't do particles natively. If you are rendering in Iray, you will need to use a render farm.
So, I'd budget for $1 million and expect to go up from there rapidly. You would get more output for that money using another animation suite, but of course it's your money (or your investors), good luck anyway.
No way do animators work for minimum wage.
More realistically you're really talking $75/hr just for straight salary. Add in taxes and benefit and you need to budget somewhere around $125/hr.
So not $1M more like $8 to $10M.
Like I wrote above for that budget there are better alternatives that are more efficient. That's just reality.
75$ an hour seems outrageous to me. I searched for "3D Animator" on Glassdoor and looked at average salaries on Indeed and Salary.com and find it to be around 27$ per hour. I live in Sunnyvale, CA, and even job postings around me start at around 44K and go up to only about 75K per year before you move into the management levels, and that's in a place where the average studio apartment is 2K per month.
I dunno, and I don't care too much, but I deal with developer-types who are always stomping their feet and demanding that their "worth" isn't being realized, and while that's true for most of us, it's also true that what you're paid for what you produce is largely dictated by how many people around you are willing to do the same-ish job for less. Its especially true in this economy.
Obviously, I'm generalizing, quality product demands high and fair compensation. My suggestion is to define what skill sets you are looking for, and then turn to the actual market to get a feel for costs. For a project this big, you should consider seeking professional advice and not relying on forum answers from strangers. Although... I realize that was forum advice from a stranger... so... you do you.
No offense to you fellow animators and artist, Many of you are very talented . But I believe you guys are way over estimating your worth. I have been doing this a long time I work & watch these markets and have done more than a few consigned scene pieces & films. and I never heard of any average animator making what you guys claim. 100k plus a year. I wish that was true, But that is ridiculous.
The average Disney animator on the top end scale of the pay grade only makes $60,000 a year. Management makes a little more. That is if you only know how to use high-end Autodesk software & 3 months special training into using proprietary Disney software. That is if they actually use you for a animation and not a concept artist which is only about $40 000 a year... https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Animator/Salary/d8b4f1e5/The-Walt-Disney-Company
Most if not all gaming animators pay scale is is based on a competitive market value & is much less than what you guys are touting. at 100 k plus a year. most game animators start at $49,000 a year and if your lucky to get a manager position, then maybe make about $70,000 a year https://work.chron.com/average-salary-video-game-3d-animator-18753.html Though if your smart you make sure to get royalties % added to your contract. for life time income as long as the film/game is making money.
Zip recruiter, who has been doing the most hiring of animators in this age of Covid. Is not even coming close to offering what you guys want for a salary https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Animator-Salary
Like I said I have been doing this for over 10 years, Project overhead cost is a lot higher than labor. Disney budget for Mulan was was 200million and I assure you than was not for animators salary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulan_(2020_film)\
Now those are High end hard to get into the industry jobs like Disney or dreamworks is very hard to get. . Most people like me and you will use Fiver https://www.fiverr.com/search/gigs?query=animators& for $25 a hour or get paid per project request. that is how I am working now as a second job. My first job is working in a nursing home. & believe me I feel under paid there too.
I agree I too would love to ask for a 100k plus salary But I ask you, how many of you are work on animating projects that are paying you that obscene amount of money? or just talk about it how much you will demand to do a job ? I am sure you guys all feel your worth way more than these market figures, so do I . But the reality of it is, "your way over pricing yourself" and properly will not even get a interviewed if you request absurd amounts of money for a salary on your resume . artist never get what they feel they are worth. But that is my 2 cents from my experience. I watch & work the artist market everyday as a independent artist . But I do not sell myself as a animator I do a lot more than just animate Daz Studio 3d figures.
PS: After my post of my short film I posted above last night I received 4 thumbs downs that came from this link of this thread above according to my Google analytics. So thank for the support from those of you thumbing down my animations last night after I posted my film on this thread, its nice to know how some of us support each other.
He's realistically talking of outsourcing it to countries where such a hourly wage would be a big deal.
to be fair people who just read but did not post in this thread may have done that
I would like to think much better of the people who posted here
there are trolls who frequent this forum too often not members
ask any DAZ gallery users about the nasty feedback they get too
I do relies that Wendy But those rating came in like 20 minutes after my post, that is my point. . Are you saying trolls harbors in wait to attack people posting on Daz Forums? Now you know why I keep ratings and comments off on most of my videos. Trolls, Ogors and Gremlins & haters of everything they can't do them self
Edited for the extra line in my comment
there are trolls actively searching terms on the internet in general
just mention Truebones for example
we all have our own troll collection that seek us out
anyway YouTube harrasment is a bit off topic to this thread
Still awful anyway you look at it. that film has been up over a month not one bad rating until I posted to this thread. I expect some constructive criticism on my films tht helps me grow as a artist. But a lot of artist on twitter and facebook also down rate other artist works in effort to make their competitors looks bad. Those platforms tell you who those people are Google does not it just tells you where if comes from.with the IP address of the user .
I don't even know where to look
I get lots of thumbs down, its the nasty person threatening legal action for motions I bought from DAZ that upsets me
I do report every new account he creates, he threated Reallusion, Adobe. Epic and Unity3D too and likely DAZ themselves, banned from all so now he goes after 3D youtube animators
Maybe I have a more cynical out look than you,. Threats of legal action against my films I can handle I document everything. and just give what is requested. to prove ownership. & put in a counter claim also help you recoup loss.
But when you have a generic harmless non offending animation video with months long good rating. then I post it to one thread in a forum where the majority of people are posting negative comments to the OP & boom things go south on my video posted.. That leaves me jumping to conclusion on how some people support one another here its disgusting really . After all the OP was looking for help in a project.
that was the main reason I dropped facebook.,
Facebook merchants services tells you who the user is that give you what ratings and comments same for twitter so you can block those trolls stalking you. or trying to harm your work. Google Analytics only tells you the traffic source and ip address of the source which will only give you location of the user. not the actual persons ID like Facebook or twitter sharecg, renderosity, etc. Calling out bad behaviors in this instance maybe was not called for, but i felt necessary considering how much support i give to everyone in the daz forums with their animation work & how little I got back in return last night .
@Ivy
So I just wached your shortfilm, tks for sharing. Since you mentioned expecting some constructive criticism, here are my 0.02€
It's all nicely done, the scenery is beautiful, editing, cameras, rendering, animation etc is well done indeed. Maybe work on the small details now that you have reached this skill level. I'm talking about small errors like her hair suddenly changing pose over 1 frame. Also IMHO the water fx is not very realistic in a context where everything else strives for realism.
only time I ever dislike a youtube video at is if it is racist etc,
cannot say I have ever disliked an animation (in fact I cannot think of a time I didn't click like, I always do regardless of how amateur) by anyone
I just dislike stuff Youtube has recommended me that is nasty mostly Vlog rants
yes I don't understand it and in your case I believe it to be pure jealousy by the persons who did it
@Sven Dullah Thanks I'll accept that
It wasn't me but complaining only encourages more of it as that's why they bothered with thumbing to begin with.
and why I keep rating off .
The negativity is in no shortage on the internet. But in a forum where we are all suppose to be learning and supporting from one another. on a posting for a potential job offering. & Hating of another video because of being called out for siad hating. just proves my point . & why I keep rating off some people just suck
edited for spelling I am very dyslexic sorry
It is his choice of software for a large team collaboration.
Daz Studio is not suited for this.
asset wise if everyone needs the same content yes
if doing what you do, using the base figures, starter essentials etc and creating their own clothes and hair it could be plausable
but if looking at PBR render times as I said 30 people 40 hours a week over 12 months is not unreasonable
it depends on what compromises they are willing to do and who is willing to work with them
that is the hardest part, finding a team
Also I want to clarify my post. Its not the bad ratings on my video that upset me as much of the lack of support from our peers here. I must be living ina fantasy world where artist support one another. I know I sure try to support others works . .
The Op even stated he was looking for idea how to start a project like this and all he got was BS salary requirements & it can't be done with daz or he should be using another software. bla bla bla same old sang and dance. Do you guys do that to every prospective employer when you are looking to get hired for a job? Pointing out the down falls of a software I can understand . But the OP even told you he like the looks of daz studio in final render and the ready made asset. He outlines everything he was looking for to hire. it was pretty clear to me. The OP may not understand the cost of such a project using daz studio.But any software in a team project will cost like hell. So does that make his opinion less vaild than yours because you may not like , or can't work with daz. Studio or rather use Maya or Iclone or blender etc because your opinion is those are better software.. . Because the OP was not looking to hire for those software so you properly won't have to worry about be hireed. But Daz has just released some new bridges to tother software that is a huge leap Maybe you guys should offer the op to use one of the new daz bridges to do your work in Blender and then bring it back to daz for the OP to use instead of saying daz is aweful and bla bla bla. Why do people come to daz forums if they feel that way ?
But when someone post a honest comment of cost and work requirements needed to achieve such a goal and posted examples of their work . The best some of the people can do is take it as a invitation silently anonymously with out a word to why down rated the video. That is just trolling & no wonder some of you people do nothing but talk and never post animation work. Gesh with peer support like that its very discouraging for new people looking to get into this field & come across this thread and see what is being posted.
Nobody is saying that DS is awful; they're simply pointing out that DS is not ideally suited for extensive animation work, which is a fact. DS is lacking numerous features that any other 3D program has - even Carrara - that make animating faster, easier and even better. Iray also is not a great rendering engine for animation, and if you like the look of Iray, you can achieve similar or even better results with a number of other render engines. Just because you've decided that DS works for you doesn't mean that it's the best tool for the job, and the OP should know that going into this.
@Gordig Not true please go back and reread some of the post,.
The commenter could offer to use the new daz bridges to bring the daz assets the op wants to use to the artist software of choice and then bring it back again to daz.. But the OP clearly stated he likes the looks of the daz renders . Not Maya , Not blender, Not iclone. But he liked daz Studio and seeming he's doing the hiring. Daz it is. Maybe the work around would be to use a daz bridge instead of say Daz is the wrong choice
because once the png's to create the animation goes through the film editor the results are all the same. How your create it relative to the artist opinion & knowledge on what they are use to using on what software is best.
they also asked for private messages from those interested (though public in this thread fine too)
so presumably those that are can do so, the thread itself is public and anyone who wishes to comment can
I do wish them luck as besides Ivy I actually have not seen many animator's work using DAZ studio which is why I recommend her input on the topic
a huge number inluding me use iClone, a few less Carrara, Poser, C4d, Element 3D, Unity 3D, Unreal Engine, Lightwave, Houdini, Max, Maya and Blender in no particular order
(and am sad some people felt the need to dislike her videos for some reason reading this thread)