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Does 4.12.1.16 allow multiple instances of Studio?

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  • L'AdairL'Adair Posts: 9,479
    outrider42 said:
    Actually that brings up an interesting point. So if you only have one instance of Daz Studio, and have Studio open while clicking on a duf in your Windows, what happens? Does this duf load on top of your current scene? Does it delete your current scene and load?

    Either option sounds terrible if you click that file by accident. And what happens if you are in the middle of a render and click a duf?

    If you ask me, the consequences of this change could be worse than the multiple instances are. At least now we if we accidentally click a duf that opens a new instance, we can simply close that new instance. But if Studio limits instances, accidental clicks could massively screw up your current scene.

    So by "fixing" one problem, you could well be creating another. I don't see the benefit to this configuration. Instances should be allowed.

    I'm not sure what the developers have planned, however, I would expect double-clicking on a duf file while Daz Studio is open to give me the same popup message in Daz Studio that I see when I double-click a scene preset instead of right-click and selecting the merge option. The error message asks if I want to save the current scene and the options are Yes, No, and Cancel. Hitting the Cancel button has always stopped the preset from loading. I would expect nothing less from the developers with this "feature."

    And if a render is in progress, I would expect a similar popup that also gives me the option to Stop and Save the current render as well.

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,714
    edited October 2019

    Personally, I've always been impressed with studio's ability to handle multiple instances. I don't remember the last time I had a crash, and am of the opinion it is has never happened.

    Closing one instance, didn't mess up the files I had open in another instance. The most I've had open is five, although generally I keep no more than 3. I don't like having to use beta and release as I then have to ensure settings are the same, addons are installed and shortcuts. Using instances takes away this hastle.

    It even has the benefit of opening studio with the same recent files and last used content open.

    Sure, it overwrites files in the temp folder, but I'm generally not rendering on both instances, and I don't care if it does. I must add, that if I want to render in both instances, I can; I can chose gpu for one, and cpu or the other gpu for the other instance.

    Sometimes I will do that with smaller images when testing stuff, as opposed to having the pre-view active

     

    Post edited by nicstt on
  • TheMysteryIsThePointTheMysteryIsThePoint Posts: 2,887
    andya_b341b7c5f5 said:
    nicstt said:

    This removes my choice; it forces me to accept someone else's idea of how I should be using the software.

    This, unfortunately, is the price of closed-source, proprietary software, even when it is 'free'.

    My brothers.

  • Catherine3678abCatherine3678ab Posts: 8,013
    edited October 2019

    nm, thought Zbrush was opening more instances but apparently that's with a previous edition of D/S.

    Post edited by Catherine3678ab on
  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,814
    Catherine3678ab said:

    ... somewhere else in the forums is a post wherein if you send something over the bridge to Zbrush and then try to bounce it back, Zbrush insists to keep opening another instance of D/S. ...

    here it is

    I have never gotten GoZ to work

    well it did ZbrushR8 not since

  • Catherine3678abCatherine3678ab Posts: 8,013
    SadKitty_Carrara said:
    Catherine3678ab said:

    ... somewhere else in the forums is a post wherein if you send something over the bridge to Zbrush and then try to bounce it back, Zbrush insists to keep opening another instance of D/S. ...

    here it is

    I have never gotten GoZ to work

    well it did ZbrushR8 not since

    I don't have Zbrush, gave a trial of it an attempt one day ... and that's about how long it lasted. Totally different way of modeling to what I'm accustomed.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,814
    Catherine3678ab said:
    SadKitty_Carrara said:
    Catherine3678ab said:

    ... somewhere else in the forums is a post wherein if you send something over the bridge to Zbrush and then try to bounce it back, Zbrush insists to keep opening another instance of D/S. ...

    here it is

    I have never gotten GoZ to work

    well it did ZbrushR8 not since

    I don't have Zbrush, gave a trial of it an attempt one day ... and that's about how long it lasted. Totally different way of modeling to what I'm accustomed.

    Taken me about 5 years I reckon, I can sculpt a bit now

  • outrider42outrider42 Posts: 3,679

     

    Richard Haseltine said:
    outrider42 said:
    Actually that brings up an interesting point. So if you only have one instance of Daz Studio, and have Studio open while clicking on a duf in your Windows, what happens? Does this duf load on top of your current scene? Does it delete your current scene and load?

     

    Either option sounds terrible if you click that file by accident. And what happens if you are in the middle of a render and click a duf?

     

    If you ask me, the consequences of this change could be worse than the multiple instances are. At least now we if we accidentally click a duf that opens a new instance, we can simply close that new instance. But if Studio limits instances, accidental clicks could massively screw up your current scene.

     

    So by "fixing" one problem, you could well be creating another. I don't see the benefit to this configuration. Instances should be allowed.

    I just tried testing this, and even using Open With both times the second file opened in the General release. However, I am pretty sure that if it's a preset it will apply it (so you might have to undo, or delete content added by a wearables preset) and if it was a scene you'd be prompted to save/discard/cancel (assuming the loaded scene had changed since load/last save).

    Interesting. Whenever I click a duf by mistake when looking through my stuff, it opens a new instance, pretty much regardless of what it is. Some dufs will open a new instance even when they make no sense, and Studio cannot read the file (like clicking a morph file).

     

    Catherine3678ab said:

    nm, thought Zbrush was opening more instances but apparently that's with a previous edition of D/S.

    But Zbrush pretty much does one thing, right? The key with Daz Studio is that it can do so many different things...which logically leads to a desire to have multiple instances running to accomplish these different things more effectively. The most clear and obvious to me being able to render in one instance while doing almost anything else in another instance. You could conceivably have an instance of Studio open with each one being dedicated to one of Studio's different features.

    One for rendering, one for scene setup, one for rigging, one for weight mapping and testing dforce, one for making a character, one for dformers, and that isn't even half of what Studio can do. Somebody could have an instance dedicated solely to each of these tasks, and plenty of others if their machine can handle it.

    And that is why we need to be able to use instances, as many as we need. Now maybe if Studio was purely a renderer, if Studio only did one or two things, maybe then it would make sense to limit instances. But because Studio can do so many different things, of course people will want to use those features, and sometimes at the same time. If Daz really wants Studio to be capable software that can be a jack of all trades, it cannot limit its users to one instance.

    With PC hardware becoming so much more capable now, there are machines that can handle lots of instances without breaking a sweat. Even my aging 4 core i5 doesn't struggle too much with several instances open as long as they are not too heavy. I can imagine a good modern Ryzen with lots of RAM would laugh at having several instances of Studio running.

  • GordigGordig Posts: 9,156

    Just popping in to say that I regularly have as many as three CPU-only Iray renders going concurrently because I'm a maniac.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,814

    from what I  gather it breaks new stuff they are adding like Face Transfer

  • SevrinSevrin Posts: 6,301
    SadKitty_Carrara said:

    from what I  gather it breaks new stuff they are adding like Face Transfer

    I'm the Face Transferers will be able to restrain themselves.

    As mentioned above, I'd be really happy if Daz Studio allowed background Iray GPU renders.  If that meant disabling Iray previews while a render is running, I'd be fine with that.  I do all my light level adjustments in post, anyway.

  • L'AdairL'Adair Posts: 9,479

    I believe the new entries in the Change Log address the ability to use multiple instances of DS at the same time:

    Private Build Channel, Change Log

  • Hurdy3DHurdy3D Posts: 1,038

    The private beta channel got an update:

     

    Added support for “-instanceName” CLI option; the token/arg immediately following the option is stored as the instance name; an instance name can contain alpha-numeric and underscore characters (all other characters are automatically stripped); named instances use unique application settings; only a single instance of a named instance, per release channel, is allowed to run at a time; any number of named instances can be defined

    http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/change_log

    Well, it looks like that we have to create for each instance we need an own DAZ 3D Desktop Symbol with an extra argument for the instance name.

    If I understand it right, settings (like scripts, viewport configuration) are not shared between the instances. So you have them to keep manuelly in sync.

    For me this is still a bad solution.

    1) I need sometimes up to 8 instances... so I would need to prepare up to 8 DAZ 3D Instances

    2) Settings are not synced automatically. So if I add a new script in the menu, I'll have to do this for all the instances manuelly.

     

    It would be better if there would be an option that instances would be created automatically if needed with autmatic generated instane name (instance-0001, instance-0002, instance-0003), and the settings are copied everytime from the "main" instance, if such an instance is created/started.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,814
    Sevrin said:
    SadKitty_Carrara said:

    from what I  gather it breaks new stuff they are adding like Face Transfer

    I'm the Face Transferers will be able to restrain themselves.

    As mentioned above, I'd be really happy if Daz Studio allowed background Iray GPU renders.  If that meant disabling Iray previews while a render is running, I'd be fine with that.  I do all my light level adjustments in post, anyway.

    I think it might be more for DAZ's benefit selling plugins with trials inbuilt

    more might be coming 

    maybe even mocap and facial mocap angel

    well I can dream, the facial bones certainly lend themselves to corresponding markers

  • RayDAntRayDAnt Posts: 1,120
    edited October 2019
    gerster said:

    The private beta channel got an update:

     

    Added support for “-instanceName” CLI option; the token/arg immediately following the option is stored as the instance name; an instance name can contain alpha-numeric and underscore characters (all other characters are automatically stripped); named instances use unique application settings; only a single instance of a named instance, per release channel, is allowed to run at a time; any number of named instances can be defined

    http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/change_log

    Well, it looks like that we have to create for each instance we need an own DAZ 3D Desktop Symbol with an extra argument for the instance name.

    If I understand it right, settings (like scripts, viewport configuration) are not shared between the instances. So you have them to keep manuelly in sync.

    For me this is still a bad solution.

    1) I need sometimes up to 8 instances... so I would need to prepare up to 8 DAZ 3D Instances

    2) Settings are not synced automatically. So if I add a new script in the menu, I'll have to do this for all the instances manuelly.

     

    It would be better if there would be an option that instances would be created automatically if needed with autmatic generated instane name (instance-0001, instance-0002, instance-0003), and the settings are copied everytime from the "main" instance, if such an instance is created/started.

    I would highly suggest withholding judgment on this until after the first Beta with it arrives. So far, the build log only speaks to new core functionality being added - not implementation of said functionality (meaning that more log entries are destined to appear.) Which is what ultimately matters. And even then - not until its released for public evaluation.

    Post edited by RayDAnt on
  • Hurdy3DHurdy3D Posts: 1,038
    RayDAnt said:
    gerster said:

    The private beta channel got an update:

     

    Added support for “-instanceName” CLI option; the token/arg immediately following the option is stored as the instance name; an instance name can contain alpha-numeric and underscore characters (all other characters are automatically stripped); named instances use unique application settings; only a single instance of a named instance, per release channel, is allowed to run at a time; any number of named instances can be defined

    http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/change_log

    Well, it looks like that we have to create for each instance we need an own DAZ 3D Desktop Symbol with an extra argument for the instance name.

    If I understand it right, settings (like scripts, viewport configuration) are not shared between the instances. So you have them to keep manuelly in sync.

    For me this is still a bad solution.

    1) I need sometimes up to 8 instances... so I would need to prepare up to 8 DAZ 3D Instances

    2) Settings are not synced automatically. So if I add a new script in the menu, I'll have to do this for all the instances manuelly.

     

    It would be better if there would be an option that instances would be created automatically if needed with autmatic generated instane name (instance-0001, instance-0002, instance-0003), and the settings are copied everytime from the "main" instance, if such an instance is created/started.

    I would highly suggest withholding judgment on this until after the first Beta with it arrives. So far, the build log only speaks to new core functionality being added - not implementation of said features. Which is what ultimately matters. And even then - not until its released for public evaluation.

    What? But I already organized all the torches and pitchforks for the angry mob. wink

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,714
    gerster said:
    RayDAnt said:
    gerster said:

    The private beta channel got an update:

     

    Added support for “-instanceName” CLI option; the token/arg immediately following the option is stored as the instance name; an instance name can contain alpha-numeric and underscore characters (all other characters are automatically stripped); named instances use unique application settings; only a single instance of a named instance, per release channel, is allowed to run at a time; any number of named instances can be defined

    http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/change_log

    Well, it looks like that we have to create for each instance we need an own DAZ 3D Desktop Symbol with an extra argument for the instance name.

    If I understand it right, settings (like scripts, viewport configuration) are not shared between the instances. So you have them to keep manuelly in sync.

    For me this is still a bad solution.

    1) I need sometimes up to 8 instances... so I would need to prepare up to 8 DAZ 3D Instances

    2) Settings are not synced automatically. So if I add a new script in the menu, I'll have to do this for all the instances manuelly.

     

    It would be better if there would be an option that instances would be created automatically if needed with autmatic generated instane name (instance-0001, instance-0002, instance-0003), and the settings are copied everytime from the "main" instance, if such an instance is created/started.

    I would highly suggest withholding judgment on this until after the first Beta with it arrives. So far, the build log only speaks to new core functionality being added - not implementation of said features. Which is what ultimately matters. And even then - not until its released for public evaluation.

    What? But I already organized all the torches and pitchforks for the angry mob. wink

    I hate wasting a good pitchfork

  • SevrinSevrin Posts: 6,301
    gerster said:
    RayDAnt said:
    gerster said:

    The private beta channel got an update:

     

    Added support for “-instanceName” CLI option; the token/arg immediately following the option is stored as the instance name; an instance name can contain alpha-numeric and underscore characters (all other characters are automatically stripped); named instances use unique application settings; only a single instance of a named instance, per release channel, is allowed to run at a time; any number of named instances can be defined

    http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/change_log

    Well, it looks like that we have to create for each instance we need an own DAZ 3D Desktop Symbol with an extra argument for the instance name.

    If I understand it right, settings (like scripts, viewport configuration) are not shared between the instances. So you have them to keep manuelly in sync.

    For me this is still a bad solution.

    1) I need sometimes up to 8 instances... so I would need to prepare up to 8 DAZ 3D Instances

    2) Settings are not synced automatically. So if I add a new script in the menu, I'll have to do this for all the instances manuelly.

     

    It would be better if there would be an option that instances would be created automatically if needed with autmatic generated instane name (instance-0001, instance-0002, instance-0003), and the settings are copied everytime from the "main" instance, if such an instance is created/started.

    I would highly suggest withholding judgment on this until after the first Beta with it arrives. So far, the build log only speaks to new core functionality being added - not implementation of said features. Which is what ultimately matters. And even then - not until its released for public evaluation.

    What? But I already organized all the torches and pitchforks for the angry mob. wink

    It was one torch and one pitchfork and you instanced them.

  • RobinsonRobinson Posts: 751
    Catherine3678ab said:

    I don't have Zbrush, gave a trial of it an attempt one day ... and that's about how long it lasted. Totally different way of modeling to what I'm accustomed.

    I opened it, was baffled by the user interface, then closed it again.  Mudbox is a simpler, much less powerful but overall much easier to learn package.  I use it for all my morphs.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 96,849
    edited October 2019
    nicstt said:
    gerster said:
    RayDAnt said:
    gerster said:

    The private beta channel got an update:

     

    Added support for “-instanceName” CLI option; the token/arg immediately following the option is stored as the instance name; an instance name can contain alpha-numeric and underscore characters (all other characters are automatically stripped); named instances use unique application settings; only a single instance of a named instance, per release channel, is allowed to run at a time; any number of named instances can be defined

    http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/change_log

    Well, it looks like that we have to create for each instance we need an own DAZ 3D Desktop Symbol with an extra argument for the instance name.

    If I understand it right, settings (like scripts, viewport configuration) are not shared between the instances. So you have them to keep manuelly in sync.

    For me this is still a bad solution.

    1) I need sometimes up to 8 instances... so I would need to prepare up to 8 DAZ 3D Instances

    2) Settings are not synced automatically. So if I add a new script in the menu, I'll have to do this for all the instances manuelly.

     

    It would be better if there would be an option that instances would be created automatically if needed with autmatic generated instane name (instance-0001, instance-0002, instance-0003), and the settings are copied everytime from the "main" instance, if such an instance is created/started.

    I would highly suggest withholding judgment on this until after the first Beta with it arrives. So far, the build log only speaks to new core functionality being added - not implementation of said features. Which is what ultimately matters. And even then - not until its released for public evaluation.

    What? But I already organized all the torches and pitchforks for the angry mob. wink

    I hate wasting a good pitchfork

    Use the pitchforks to roast marshmallows over the torches.

    --------------------------------

    But yes, please withhold judgement as this is - as Rob said - clearly a work in progress so we need to see what we actually get at the end, or at least bear in mind that the things that seem undesirable may already be intended to be modified further on.

    Post edited by Richard Haseltine on
  • outrider42outrider42 Posts: 3,679

    Private build log:

    Forwarding application instances now wait to send messages to the primary instance (and subsequently exit) in the event that it is still starting; addresses multiple application instances being launched in rapid succession

    Public build log:

    Added support for “-instanceName” CLI option; the token/arg immediately following the option is stored as the instance name; an instance name can contain alpha-numeric and underscore characters (all other characters are automatically stripped); named instances use unique application settings; only a single instance of a named instance, per release channel, is allowed to run at a time; any number of named instances can be defined

    So they are doing something. But I am not sure what that means. If what gerster said is right, that doesn't sound too great either.

    This is what I would like to know: Why? All we have here are suppositions and guesses, but I have seen not an actual statement as to exactly why this change is needed in the first place. Can we get this? I would really like some cold hard details here. Exactly how many people have had an issue to warrant this? I'd like to see an actual number. Something. This program has a 20+ year history and now, only just now, it decides to make this change. Why is it that this was not a big enough problem all these years, and now suddenly it is? What is different from 5 or 10 years ago?

    Can't we have some transparency here? If it could be explained in detail, then maybe I would understand a little. But we do not have a concrete answer to why this is needed.

    Otherwise, I don't see why my suggestion would be a problem. That suggestion being to make this a toggle in Studio's options, with great big huge popups warning the user to NOT use multiple instances and that doing so may cause them problems.

    "Using multiple instances of Studio may cause conflicts in Studio. Studio may become unstable and crash, and using multiple instances is not recommended, nor will support be guaranteed. Common side effects of multiple instances can be skin irritation and/or dry mouth. In rare cases some users may get rabies. If you experience any of these issues, please stop using Daz Studio immediately and talk to your doctor."

    However, the user can choose to enable multiple instances and continue to use Daz Studio like previous builds before 4.12.1.16 and assume the risk it may involve. I do not understand why this has to be a problem that must be solved like it is.

    Please listen. This is a very big deal. This directly effects how I use Studio, and I am not the only one, far from it. Like I said earlier, Studio has too many features to just be a one instance program. There has got to be a better answer for this.

  • RayDAntRayDAnt Posts: 1,120
    edited October 2019

    @outrider42 see the bit of this post about implementation. Daz Studio has never had a fully coherent multi-instancing mechanism. Based on the build log so far that is about to change. Which is a good thing for people who use/need multi-instancing since it means you will be able to do more with less risk of conflicts.

    Post edited by RayDAnt on
  • outrider42outrider42 Posts: 3,679
    That is a big maybe. If additional instances have certain plugins disabled because they only work in a single instance, that could pose issues as well and greatly restrict the point of instances in the first place. So I'm not quite sold on this idea yet until I see it actually released and working.

    I personally have not run into any issues with how I use Studio. I have run out of memory and crashed Studio a couple of times using instances, in which case I am well aware that was my own fault for running out of memory, not Studio. I see people mention conflicts it MIGHT cause, except I still haven't seen the exact conflict in question. I saw one that said temporary memory might get deleted, but I load new scenes all the time across multuple instances. I want to see the data behind it. A help log demonstrating it. You know...proof. So far we are just being told there is a problem. Who is having this problem???

    And its not just me alone here barking in the wind, there are numerous users here talking about doing this stuff with no issues. I would like to understand the specifics behind this, from Daz themselves, for the reasons behind it, and exactly what their solution intends to do.

    Lets not play it close to the vest, please. I believe this aspect is deserving of discussion, because the stakes are pretty high. I know for some people will probably roll their eyes at that statement like I am being dramatic, some probably roll their eyes just seeing my name. But this is important, and will greatly effect how I and others like me use this program in the future. If using instances becomes a problem, or becomes ridiculously difficult, then I might be forced to look at alternatives. This is just that serious. That's why I'm not letting this go. I've invested too much time, energy and money into this program to just let it go. Of course if they make it better, then fantastic. I'll sing their praises. I'll sing Frozen at top of my lungs and scare the children. I am not all doom and gloom. I was the one cheerleading RT cores for like a year here before we got their support.
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 96,849

    I suspect that we are getting this piecemeal because theya re wanting to make sure that each step works - limiting DS to only oen of each sntacne, and checking that there are no issues via the public beta, then they add the ability to have differently named isntances so that you can have more than one of a given channel running and make sure there are no issues with that, then perhaps we will get the next stage (perhaps a UI, perhaps there will be more steps before then - I don't know). This seems to be a case of proceeding carefully with a fairly big change.

  • outrider42outrider42 Posts: 3,679
    Richard Haseltine said:

    I suspect that we are getting this piecemeal because theya re wanting to make sure that each step works - limiting DS to only oen of each sntacne, and checking that there are no issues via the public beta, then they add the ability to have differently named isntances so that you can have more than one of a given channel running and make sure there are no issues with that, then perhaps we will get the next stage (perhaps a UI, perhaps there will be more steps before then - I don't know). This seems to be a case of proceeding carefully with a fairly big change.

    That's fine but...this is still speculation.

    I received a response to the support ticket I filed. They said they are following the thread and our concerns "are being heard". They also said to keep an eye on the forums for updates. However they didn't give any more information nor hints to what those plans may be.

    That is still extremely vague. I really wish somebody could just come out and say it. I appreciate the response, but saying a concern is being heard is standard PR speak. I can't count how many times I've heard that exact phrase in other places.

    So we'll just have to see what happens.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 40,571

    ...I just hope it doesn't happen "Daz soon."

  • lancelmartin_cf51987037lancelmartin_cf51987037 Posts: 133
    edited October 2019

    The primary reason I use two instances is to render in one and pose in the other.  If a render is going to take 30 minutes or so, a separate instance can be scaled down (remove all the unneccessary scene items and shaders), get the figures posed, and then saved as pose presets to be loaded into the original scene for the next render

    Not being able to open more than one instance would obviously wreck that workflow

    Post edited by lancelmartin_cf51987037 on
  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,714
    Richard Haseltine said:
    nicstt said:
    gerster said:
    RayDAnt said:
    gerster said:

    The private beta channel got an update:

     

    Added support for “-instanceName” CLI option; the token/arg immediately following the option is stored as the instance name; an instance name can contain alpha-numeric and underscore characters (all other characters are automatically stripped); named instances use unique application settings; only a single instance of a named instance, per release channel, is allowed to run at a time; any number of named instances can be defined

    http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/change_log

    Well, it looks like that we have to create for each instance we need an own DAZ 3D Desktop Symbol with an extra argument for the instance name.

    If I understand it right, settings (like scripts, viewport configuration) are not shared between the instances. So you have them to keep manuelly in sync.

    For me this is still a bad solution.

    1) I need sometimes up to 8 instances... so I would need to prepare up to 8 DAZ 3D Instances

    2) Settings are not synced automatically. So if I add a new script in the menu, I'll have to do this for all the instances manuelly.

     

    It would be better if there would be an option that instances would be created automatically if needed with autmatic generated instane name (instance-0001, instance-0002, instance-0003), and the settings are copied everytime from the "main" instance, if such an instance is created/started.

    I would highly suggest withholding judgment on this until after the first Beta with it arrives. So far, the build log only speaks to new core functionality being added - not implementation of said features. Which is what ultimately matters. And even then - not until its released for public evaluation.

    What? But I already organized all the torches and pitchforks for the angry mob. wink

    I hate wasting a good pitchfork

    Use the pitchforks to roast marshmallows over the torches.

    Good idea!

  • FishtalesFishtales Posts: 6,043
    edited October 2019

    I just started two Studio 4.12 and did simultaneous renders. Scrub that it is 4.12.0.86 I used blush

    Click on image for full size.

    two-studios-002.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 242K
    Post edited by Fishtales on
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