Review System
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Am I going nuts, or didn't this site used to have a review system? I, for one, would welcome our new alien overlords a well-though-out review system on this site. Can't see what it would hurt, and I think it would help a lot.
I make heavy use of reviews on that other site whose name we do not mention, as well as Amazon, B&H, and I'm not going to list the rest.
I haven’t read through all this but obviously reviews would only be for people who actually bought the product so if @Ati doesn’t use fantasy products he wouldn’t be able to review them. And if someone thinks an outfit is too skimpy for their use, they shouldn’t buy it. If there was a review system that required a screenshot render and explained exactly what you like and don’t like (like what @Novica does in her thread) that would be useful. If people had to fill out a form with pros and cons and include a render showing issues or positive results, that would be awesome!
I don’t think there should be a rating system though, that could skew things. But a link to reviews on the product page as described above would be helpful just like @Novica’s thread has been useful but there is usually only one review of each product there. It would be great to be able to read a bunch of reviews with pros, cons, and screenshots demonstrating how the reviewer came to their conclusion...
As long as items aren't ranked in the store by rating, I don't see the harm in them. But you should need to put in a few words backing up that rating, as is the case at Rendo. Just keep in mind that English is not the first language of a lot of people who make and buy 3D assets, so there may be misunderstandings occasionally.
There's nothing stopping people from doing this even now.
Aye. With your Daz Deals (link for Chrome extension) add-on you can see any post in which the product has been linked. But a lot of people don't bother to provide links when they post to praise or complain. And newcomers, the ones who would benefit most from the experience of others, are the least likely to have the add-on installed.
What we also do in my Art Studio thread is to ask questions when we see promos for which we want more clarifications and explanations. Latest example, the barn that was just released. As a horse owner and previous barn owner, I had questions about the loft and exterior, as there were no shots of the latter. Someone then rendered it and we got the answers. So anyone who has questions about a product BEFORE buying it can also post and we try to take a peek and see what the status is.
I also asked about the base materials for a gal, as I hate built-in blush, and that also got answered (and rendered.) There's no guarantee you'll always get a render (we all have our own priorities) but questions usually get answered unless it's something you could easily research yourself from the promos. One thing I do emphasize though- the culture of my thread is friendly, we do not bash vendors or use extremely harsh/derogatory remarks. If you don't like something, we encourage "in my opinion..." and "because..." follows.
From a customer standpoint, I actually prefer the system they have over at Renderosity. If something is broke with the product, I can write in the review the specific issue(s) with the product and contact the PA. If it gets fixed, I update the review; if not, I leave it as is and either get a refund or try to work around the issue. Usually if I find a workaround involving adjustments, I'll add it to the review for others to try. I've already seen a product pulled from there by the PAs because they either couldn't fix it or didn't have the time due to working on a bunch of new releases. Sure, I see the occasional silly review where the complaint with the product was obviously due to user error, but nothing that would warrant nuking the whole review system. My only gripe about it is that a good number of the people that post reviews don't know how to write one. Telling me a product is "great" consisting of a short one-line sentence doesn't tell me much.
Daz 3d has never had a review system and I for one hope they never get one. I have said this in other threads on this subject, and I will say it again here. Do you know that people get paid for writing reviews? People say how good the Amazon review system is, for example, but I got totally fed up with the amount of emails I was getting from sellers at Amazon telling me that they had found my email on an Amazon best reviewers list, and would I like free products in exchange for writing reviews. I won't bother telliong you how I dealt with that but I certainly no longer get those sort of emails any more and Amazon seemed to have cleaned there act up a bit.
I do actually accept free gifts from my main internet Grocery supplier in exchange for reviews, but I only accept gifts that I will use, and I do give fair reviews, rather than give "nice" reviews just because I got a free product to review.
This is a fairly small community compared to Amazon, though. Bad reviewers will get a bad reputation quickly. It's also very easy to return something and people could mention misleading reviews with their support ticket. Conversely, allowing informative user information can reduce the number of returns by providing essential information not included in the description. What's more, Daz, like Renderosity, knows if someone has made a purchase, and can restrict reviewing privileges to customers registered for 60 days, or whatever to avoid fairy dust being sprinkled on new items by mercenaries or bots.
If Daz was in charge of it and restricted reviews to people who actually purchased the item and required them to fill out a form with pros, cons, general review and screenshots demonstrating why the review was positive or negative, I don’t see why it wouldn’t work. I doubt someone would pay for a product just to give it a positive or negative review if they didn’t want the actual product. Of course, if they genuinely hate it, they could return it within the 30 days. And users could read all reviews and make an informed decision. Like if someone complains that’s it’s another pretty white girl, (which is stupidly obvious) that would not deter people who like pretty white girls... And if they don’t like pretty white girls, they wouldn’t buy it in the first place, so couldn’t write a review.
The Oculus store has a great review system and you can’t write a review unless you actually purchased the app and others can rate your review by how helpful it is...
So if it adds $2-3 to the price of every item you buy in order for DAZ to pay the salaries of the employees to verfy that reviewers have actually bought the produce and reject the ones that haven't filled out the form completely or neglected to include screenshots, you'd be fine with that? 'Cuz SOMEONE's gonna have to do it and it ain't gonna happen for free. (BTW, if it does happen, I nominate you to be the mod who has to handle all the "DAZ is censoring my reviews" complaints on the forum.
)
(And if someone can't tell that it's another pretty white girl by looking at the promo pics, they obviously lack the mental capacity to write a meaningful review in the first place.
)
I'm pretty sure scripts do that. I wouldn't think the huge chain stores have people sorting through millions of purchases to see who bought it. It's an automated email and it takes you only to the product you bought. And if you didn't, you don't get the option to review. I could be wrong.
Yeah, I doubt Oculus has people check who bought what. It's automated. All purchases are in the system. If set up correctly, it would run on its own. But Daz may not want bad reviews of products but it could help CS where products could be fixed before tons of returns are requested... It could almost be set up like writing a ticket where you put what version of DS you're using and maybe what graphics card and RAM so people with lower systems would know what products to avoid and this would prevent unecessary returns.
Generally it's always the same vendors who do the same high, medium or low quality content. When you find them there is no surprise.
For example, I can buy Stonemason products without thinking, it's always high quality.
But there are other vendors I won't get their products because they are expensive but not polished, almost like a raw conversion from TurboSquid OBJ to Daz Studio.
At this point I don't care if people like these items or not.
Renderosity gets a Reviews/Like/Product Gallery system but nobody use it.
CGBytes gets a Rating system but nobody use it.
Yeaaaaaah, its gonna be a no from me
Why?
:gestures at the everything listed in this thread:
Great points on the cons, guys, I have nothing to add :)
Yeaaaaah, absolutely, we are. Because many people are not honest, fair or objective. Some are trolly, nasty and mean spirited. All one needs to do to fear a review system, is look at the forums for 30 min. And as if the mods dont already have enough on their plate, here comes moderating reviews!
But tbh, the rammifications are far more reaching than just that. I could sit here and list all the myriad of problems it would have, but fortunately, the thread has already done that for me :D
nothing to add
Well...it is illegal to post reviews without disclosing you received the product for free. That's all that needs to be said about that.
Daz is a niche software, which is in a market that is niche itself. A niche inside a niche. There are only so many people around, both PAs and customers. It is crazy to make any comparison between a niche site like Daz and the world's largest retailer. Amazon is a large target. Literally the largest target, so of course people selling on Amazon might be tempted to take any shortcut possible.
Of course there are going to be bad reviews from people who don't know what they are doing. Most logically thinking people reading reviews are going to spot that very quickly. And besides, the products that are legit good are going to get more positive than negative reviews.
But apparently, the answer is we have zero faith in the Daz customer base. That is what this comes down to. Apparently Daz customers are just too stupid for a review system. Because there is a chance that somebody might leave a bad review that could be unwarranted, we therefore must abandon all hope of using a review system. Logic! Somehow this terrible fate has not stopped many other stores from having a review system. Strange.
That is a real shame.
Novica's thread is nice, but she doesn't buy every product in the store, and some reviews can still leave questions.
Lets take a moment to remember that the Daz forum search is terrible. If you expect customers to use the forums you must assume that every user is able to search them with alternative means. 100%.
ATI's add on is fantastic, but only a scant few use it. Many people don't even know it exists. And there are people who might be using browsers that don't support it. Also, ATI's add on doesn't work on mobile, where a good many people are these days.
New users jumping into this are going to be clueless. Daz has changed since 99% of you started using it. There is a lot more to this app than before. While many of you got to learn these new features as they were released (like dforce, then dforce hair, or Iray Dual Lobe), brand new users have to figure ALL of this stuff out. There is a lot of stuff on their plate, and they are expected to know what is what. Oh, and they are expected to know the difference between Victoria 4 and Genesis 8, or the previous 7 generations of Genesis. Oh wait, there is no Genesis 5-7. But there is Victoria 5-7? What is this? You are telling me that Genesis 8 can't just wear Victoria 5 shoes??? You are telling me these light I bought are not actually for Iray? I thought Iray was Daz? <.<
Even though Daz itself is somewhat easy to use, there is still a long learning curve. This learning curve isn't just for the software, it is for the store too! Customers have to learn how to use this store as well as the software, because this store is...lets just say this store is "unique".
So the answer is to just throw them at the wolves and hope they don't get burned out (or eaten). IMO, this is what is holding you back from becoming more than just a little niche. New users can be very easily intimidated by not just the software, but the store and the forums itself. I really wonder how many new users quit Daz Studio because they become frustrated trying to learn what to do. And again, not just the software, but this crazy store. A new user buying a product that they cannot figure out is not good for anybody.
Your thread has become a powerhouse of its own, on a whim I just googled if my own youtube video will pop up or not....guess what, your thread is on the top 3. ^_^
This:
But apparently, the answer is we have zero faith in the Daz customer base. That is what this comes down to. Apparently Daz customers are just too stupid for a review system.
Then this:
New users jumping into this are going to be clueless. Daz has changed since 99% of you started using it. There is a lot more to this app than before. While many of you got to learn these new features as they were released (like dforce, then dforce hair, or Iray Dual Lobe), brand new users have to figure ALL of this stuff out. There is a lot of stuff on their plate, and they are expected to know what is what. Oh, and they are expected to know the difference between Victoria 4 and Genesis 8, or the previous 7 generations of Genesis. Oh wait, there is no Genesis 5-7. But there is Victoria 5-7? What is this? You are telling me that Genesis 8 can't just wear Victoria 5 shoes??? You are telling me these light I bought are not actually for Iray? I thought Iray was Daz? <.<
Even though Daz itself is somewhat easy to use, there is still a long learning curve.
These two fit together if you remove the problem being 'stupid customers' and instead use the fact that 3D is challenging and it would be many of those 'challenged' who would be leaving reviews.
Reviews because auto-fit failed. Do you blame the software or blame the outfit?
Reviews because the Deforce thing exploded. Do you blame your settings or the dress?
Reviews because a figure has terrible skin. Do you blame the HDRI or light rig or the PA who made the character?
Reviews because of a long render time. Do you blame the software/render settings/your machine or blame the product?
All these issues get handled in a long thread where people can reply and address complaints and issues. If it's mostly a star system, how do you get to the reasons behind a star?
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So far I see two even sides. For every PRO there's an equally powerful and compelling CON. I see how easy it is to list - all the hurdles and costs that Daz would have to overcome to implement a proper system.
How much risk is involved of things going badly.
What I haven't seen is anybody name a benefit for Daz using a rating system.
Explain or show how it's costing sales NOT having one or, or explain/show how a rating system will increase sales.
That would be real swaying power.
You're not wrong here!
I don't think it's a good idea to call out people by name here, especially customers.
Lots of people only leave good reviews because they believe in not saying anything at all if they can't say something nice. That's not my policy, but different strokes and all.
Reviews are being used on shopping sites all over the internet. Basically, the main objection boils down to "We don't want people to say anything about our product. It's bad enough the forums exist".
Its really not that cut and dry. We dont want people to WIELD it.... and thats an entirely different thing.
"OH, I dont like this, it has skulls all over it!!! <<<not a fair review
"OH this should have been made for all the figures" <<< not a fair review
"OH, This should be for the males and not females <<<not a fair review
"OH this doesnt have the color/option I want" <<<not a fair review
"OH I cant make my render look exactly like the promos!" <<<not a fair review
"OH this has high heels and I HATE high heels" <<not a fair review
"OH this is fantasy and I HATE fantasy < not a fair review
"OH this armor wouldnt actually protect anyone!! <<not a fair review
"OH look how ridiculously big this armor/sword is!!! <<not a fair review
Get my point yet??? If not, Im sure I could dig up somemore.
And thats just some of what I see being griped about on a daily basis on the forums. The mods would be modding that ALLL DAY LONG.... along with the forums.
When there is a legitimate problem (ie: something is broken) you submit it to CS. They contact us. We fix it. Or you can return anything youre not happy with. I dont see the need for a review system that would potentially be abused.
That's not reviews at all, just personal opinions and complaints, and I'm pretty sure 95% of people can see that for themselves and that such things are irrelevant in a review. So no need to moderate here IMO. Plus because someone expresses that they hate high heels it's very unlikely that it will affect anyone who do's opinion of the product (I don't like high heels and I'm not going to change my mind and purchase some just because someone says "oh, those heels are cool!" in a review (and vice versa), etc. etc.
).
Yeah that's exactly my point, yet, that's the kind of reviews we'd end up with. Because while many are responsible with reviewing, a fair amount are not. Having to moderate all that would create goads of work for the mods and Daz... and to what end??
What exactly would be the benefit of having a review system? Coz as it stands, I see none. I mean, we already have a forum where people can post their opinions. Unless this is more about those opinions being able to have more of an affect on vendors. In which case, I'd like to refer to my comments about wielding reviews
I rest my case
I'm still strongly favouring rating/review/star whatever system, that gives customers more options. I don't really understand other customers, that are against review system, since it's so easy not to use it. But let's be honest, that's the real mentality here. If *I* don't like it, others shouldn't have it, even if it does not impact my experience at all. It was the same exact mentality in the thread asking neutral light for at least 1 promo pic, but apparently that was too much for some too.
On the other hand, I do understand why lower quality PAs are against it. There's a big chance review system would lower their sales, since reviews might show the weaknesses that promo shots did not show. That would force PAs to spend more time with their products before release, and even more time for fixing bugs. Then again, those "superstars" that are already creating high quality products might actually profit from this. Lots of positive reviews more than likely mean more sales.
I don't know about the rest of the customer base, but I usually have limited amount of money to spend on Daz. If I can choose, I'd rather spend it on products, that most people like already and left a positive review. I don't like to be a beta tester, and report issues to CS, and hope that they some day manage to contact PA and wait if/when they have time to fix the product. Some PAs are active on the forums, and some times you get help from the PA directly ( my hat off to those brave ones
), but most of the time you have to struggle with CS. Also, I buy most of my stuff from sales, and usually I don't have time to test them all within 30 days, so while Daz return policy sounds great, it's not really working for me. Even if I manage to return a product in 30 days, then I have to wait to get my money back, and I can't use it to buy better products.
Finally, forum is not really a review system. I think it has been said million times already, but most Daz customers don't use forums. Some probably don't even know that they exist. So if Daz forum is the only place to find more information about a product, that is pretty sad. If review whatever system is too much, at least add a direct link from product page to forum thread...oh, except most of the products don't even have a forum thread. I rest my case.
Nor would most products have any reviews.
So in my case it's not about a 5-star review feature but more about customer voices for one product. A system where the shop page points directly to a forum thread where users can talk and share opinions about a certain product would suffice here. True, as an experienced user of the forum and the shop I got around to understand how to search the forums for information I want but the process seems counter intuitive to me. And also, such a system is not necessarily to prevent sales. For instance, I have purchased some products after reading user feedback in the forums, like the MMX hair shader. Not sure if I would have bought it without the forum discussion.
This works both ways.
"If I want it, I should get it, even though it could negatively impact the pa's, esp ones who are new and trying to build a name and may not be well rounded yet, even though it could negatively impact the moderators and cause them extra work. I want it anyway.... even if Daz has to reroute it's web resources away from more needful maintenance, to put in a completely superfluous review system, which would require its own database and tables to be implemented into an existing store with thousands of customers and product and then spend all its time babysitting unruly users who abuse said system. Because you know what?? I want it"