Review System
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For every valid reason to implement a rating system, there's an equally valid reason not to.
What's funny about that is that most of the arguments against a review system primarily fall into the category of "I don't like review systems" and "This is what would "likely" be the result if you tried to implement one". While the second may be a valid argument, it's still based on the assumption of a negative outcome; and would apply to any and all review systems.
One problem is that people are kind of making a review system synonomous with a ratings system. A review system can rate a product, but doesn't necessarily have to. It merely has to tell you the facts about the product leaving it up to the buyer to decide for themselves. The biggest problem is that not everyone is equally qualified to review a product; and this is what you most often come across with sites like Amazon, but be that as it may, people still depend a great deal on Amazon's "flawed" review system. Everybody is not stupid -- contrary to popular opinion and most are capable of thinking for themselves.
Let's be honest a lot of products don't have a lot of or enough info about them for a potential buyer -- especially a new user -- to make an informed choice, and that is the best reason why some type of review system could be very beneficial. For an example of what I consider a review system would look like check out some of Dreamlights product reviews on Youtube. There aren't ratings, they simply demonstrate what the product is and what it can do.
I can already see the 0-star excuses:
"Bad, the textures are bland and the windows are black" (on a pre-iRay product)
"Do not buy, this outfit clips everywhere, shoes don't fit at all!" (on every Victoria 4 outfit)
"This outfit didn't show up in my Smart Content" (on add-on textures for some actual outfit)
"These buildings kept giving some error about Veu path not found on installation! Will not buy again from this artist!"
"This figure doesn't have any genitals, I want my mothers' money back!" (on every figure that's not purchased in a pro-pack or is clearly of minor age)
I'm sure many people can figure out way more "ratings" from "experienced users".
And even then, some set may turn out perfect for one user, and totally unfit for another. I personally love the I13 bundles, simply because they're very versatile in their use. I rarely use those scenes "as they are", but do use the props, outfits and poses everywhere. They can be great as they are, especially considering their general pricepoint, but some people might still find them too limited or too much of a hassle to use (since many aren't iRay). Does that make them bad products? No, they're probably just not what the purchaser wanted or expected out of them, which is something different.
The reasons to not have a review system far outweigh the benefits. I know saying this will be unpopular.
1) Review systems are easy to brigade one way or the other (overwhelming positive reviews done by the PA, or overwhelming bad reviews by one motivated customer)
2) Often emotionally driven, meaning they're rarely accurate or indicative of the product; on average reviews skew negative because fewer people are motivated to leave positive reviews.
3) User input has to be curated to avoid ad bots, slurs, or other non-relevant commentary, which is a non-trivial use of resources (I'd personally much rather Daz spend that effort on promotions and QC).
4) Amplifies imbalance between PAs (only the most popular PAs will get many positive reviews, making their products even more likely to sell, while lesser known PAs can get completely sunk by a single bad review)
5) New PAs will struggle even more since they won't have any positive reviews to start
6) Once the first review is left, positive or negative, that review influences ALL further reviews on the product more than the actual product will
Yes, all of those problems happen with Yelp and Amazon and every other review system. Quite obviously in fact. The biggest culprit being Yelp -- the number of times I've seen a restaurant review outright lying about what's even on the menu or the health department score makes Yelp almost entirely useless for my area. I strongly suspect that Yelp reviews are only left by the restaurant's competitors. You also see very noticeable positive review brigading on Amazon, especially with technology products from Chinese companies.
With Daz, it's very simple with none of the above problems. You buy something, and if you don't like it for ANY reason, you just return it.
And if you really really hate the product, or really really love it, you can start a thread on it. It's simple. It's easy to manage. It's reliable.
Yelp doesn't work because it's not well curated and everyone complains about everything. I've tried it repeatedly before giving up; there's no signal, just noise.
Amazon reviews are useful for two reasons:
Large volume. Amazon has LOTS of customers. That means you get a bigger sampling size and can more easily look for trends not swamped by one grump or one pollyanna.
Curated. Amazon has deep pockets and can afford to have some quality control over reviews.
An automated one-click return option would be handy (some companies have it already). It would also save CS a lot of work, plus you could have your refund credited instantly. I don't see anything that speak against it other than the work involved in implementing it. Now that the encryption system is already in place they could also make the products encrypted during the first 30 days where a refund is possible, to prevent piracy. I never understood why people resisted so much against the 1 year encryption, I think it was a good solution, which would have benefited the PAs.
I find it pretty easy to tell fake Amazon reviews from real ones. Also, folk receiving free product to review have stopped giving such glowing recommendations as done in the past as they are finding it is major work to write a fake glowing review that is convincing so they just actually try & review the free product now. It's easier and actually less time consuming.
My own reviews can be pretty thorough on Amazon but if the product was what it was supposed to be I will give a terse but good review. It's the bad products that I review that can take up more of my time to review but those are pretty rare.
More problematic are my attempts to get Amazon to remove products that are clearly 100% fake lies such as people selling "Blue Rose Seeds" or any sort of rose seed as that's not how roses are sold as they can never come true to the claimed hybrid type of rose the rose seed seller is claiming. Use much caution buying plants at Amazon.
I review every single thing I buy on Amazon. Everything. I don't buy much but over now 16 years I think the number of products bought at Amazon.com, Amazon.co.uk, and Amazon.de have added up to quite a few reviewed products. As I don't hesitate to say if I don't like a 'revered book' I sometimes get thumbs down from review reviewers. You'll notice that Amazon in fact has removed the thumbs down ability from review reviewers just because of such 'fan-boy' type people trying to falsely promote their own opinions on products and demote others views on products. A totally bizarre way to spend one's time really: "Let me go to Amazon today so I can demote people's non-glowing reviews of my favorite mass media entertainment titles!"
I have to agree with ArtAngel, it would be a big help to us beginners and as long as the reviewer is not anonymous (stops most trolls) it would help great creators shine
Very well said and I very much welcome your input, thank you!
As for the forum serving as a review system, how many of DAZ 2.000.000+ users visit the forums and are aware of that? If the product page has a review section, everyone buying a product will be aware of it.
I don't believe the comparison to Amazon works very well here. Because with Daz we're talking about tools that creative hobbiests use to make art. The knowledge and skill level of the person doing the review will play HEAVILY into their perception of the product. We're not buying clothes or electronics which have objective criteria about whether they work or not.
And anyone who has researched consumer behavior knows how much more likely an unhappy customer is to submit a review than a happy one.
So, you're going to end up with (mostly) people who dislike something posting more than those who like it. And the reason they may dislike it is because they don't understand it. Or they have unrealistic expectations for the products they buy. Which the PA will then likely have to respond to (just like on Yelp) taking up their time which could have been spent on making a new product rather than defending their current ones against uninformed consumers.
If a consumer WANTS to be informed before they buy, it isn't that hard. A Google search on the product name is probably going to tag all sorts of threads here in the forums talking about the product. And if they're really concerned and don't want to "risk" Daz's money back gurantee, they can always ask.
And if you really want to post a review of something that you like (or dislike), the forums work for that too. Case in point is the thread I started and am working on expanding in regards to Slosh's and Matty's latest shader packages.
I agree mostly with JonnyRay. However I shop at Amazon, and before I buy any product I do look at reviews. I don't believe the ones I read are fake, but I realize that's comparing apples to oranges, but having a review system is a good thing is what the point is. For any world, real or 3D.
Who's gonna bitch about a product they like? Most ppl don't bother. You're going to hear from them when a product is so confusing or they don't understand. Then they're asking for help in forums. Mostly replies and help come from other customers who have a grip on it it and how to use it, Then the vendor may pop in and say, oh, do this, then do that, my intention was this. Well, then make a detailed pdf, even if it's 1. do this, 2. do that, etc. Pretend it's kindergarten and we aren't intuitiive and can't read your mind about do this and that.
I've done google searches for products and it usually gives me a link back to a thread here that may or may not be helpful.
I still believe a review system is a good idea.
I disagree.
What beginners lack is experience; a review can't give them that insight. You'll learn far more from buying, trying and returning if you don't like it; time spent reading reviews can be better spent testing out a product you might like, and there is the forum.
Daz reviews Amazon-style: Downloaded in seconds. 5 stars!
The gallery and the forum are a kind of review system in particular if you use Daz-Deals which adds the links on the product page.
I use the forums to find out more information as much as possible, but I also shop a lot of older content for which there is no forum information (the acquired RDNA items are particularly unenlightening).
As far as buying and then testing and then (in theory) returning; that so doesn't work for me! I buy things for an extensive number of projects, but some of them are months (or years) away. If I can't find an answer, I don't buy. I've never returned anything - I figure if I made an error in comprehension or judgement, that's my problem, and if I find a problem, it's usually a couple months after the fact. ( I have several plug-ins I never did get to work. Just gave up, eventually, and now I avoid the big-ticket toys.)
A review system wouldn't necessarily help with the kinds of questions I have (honestly, better descriptions in the actual products would solve a lot of problems, but I can see how some things would be low priority for improving the listings on.) Basically, I think Daz needs better database management, but their money's in the new and shiny, not the backlist. On Renderosity, I find that if I post a question to the product, the vendor is usually pretty quick to give me the answer I need. Alternatively, I can often find what I need in the gallery (usually a 'does this work with Daz' kind of question). It has a high level of shopping comfort going on for me. I didn't even notice the Forums here until this year... for some reason, they do not stand out. I barely use the gallery. However, I shop here, so something must be working... maybe only my acquisitiveness. :-)
The Play Store shows only a little over 1k users for that excellent extension, while far more than that visit the site every day. It's a huge help in making purchasing decision, and I'm not sure why Daz isn't building the extension's functionality directly into the store, galleries and forums themselves, since they seem to be okay with it existing at all.
I once bought a product from this store that included a cave. I zoomed into the inside of the cave where I planned on putting my characters and rendering them. That's when I noticed the creator of the product had put a copyright notice in the cave that appeared in the render. I complained about that in the forum. I was promptly called an idiot who didn't know how to properly use the product. I could have easily demonstrated that I was right but Richard Haseltine locked the thread so the people calling me an idiot got the last word and I didn't get to defend myself. Meanwhile, people can say, "It's great! Instabuy! He's done it again!" all they want without any censorship. I also once bought a product at Renderosity that had a bad file path so it didn't work. Even the product creator acknolwedged the problem (and fixed it too). That didn't stop the creator's buddies from posting three reviews that said it worked great before the fix. As long as people can't speak negatively about a product as much as they can speak positively about it, the forum is not an adequate review system. And the forums have too many people who will just automatically say a product is great.
I've seen my share of bad reviews on Amazon and other places. Notably, a woman was reviewing an early hard drive DVR that I had purchased and she gave it one star, complaining that it had poor video quality if you set it to the lowest video quality setting. I also saw a review on C-Net by a paid C-Net employee who claimed a video camera had no manual focus, even though I had the camera in my hands and was able to focus manually with it.
So yes, reviews can be good and bad. But forums can too. I think because forum posts come and go, a review system would be better. There may be improper reviews but at least all of the information would be in one place. And I think people would be able to filter the bad reviews because they would be saying obvious things like, "it has bad video quality when I set the quality to bad".
And that 30-day return policy is only good if you discover the problem within 30 days. A lot of product makers get over by making products that last longer than 30 days before their flaws show.
I agree that you can't really go by the forum 100%, and some products get no mentions at all. One thing I like to go by, although this doesn't work with brand new products, is to see how many gallery entries contain the asset. Good products tend to get used more often. That's another point in favour of the Daz-Deals extension.
Unfortunately it doesn't work in all browsers. When I'm not actually working in DAZ Studio on my Windows 10 PC, I access the internet on my Mac. I have a Macbook Air (6 years old) which overheats if I use Chrome so I stick with Safari. That extension doesn't work with Safari (not sure about Firefox but I don't use that for other reasons).
I give this thread 4.5 stars, that it has continued for 3 pages and has not gotten off track, or into an argument. Kudos!
Sometimes users have a bad experience because they lack some knowledge or misunderstand the product. Sometimes, they have expectations of what they'll be able to do with the product and it falls short, not because the product was bad, but because the user expected it to do more. If the reviewer is diligent, they may fully explain, others will simply declare the product disappointing, flawed or worthless. These poor ratings may be completely incorrect or poorly communicated and so people don't buy based on this because users who liked the product didn't make the choice to rate it. Stars only are even worse as there is nothing to relate what made the user rate it the way they did. Some people may be harsher with how they rate and you have no way of knowing that.
I've had products, for instance on Second Life, where people put in bad reviews and what they were was frustrated because they didn't understand something and instead of reaching out to us, vented negatively. On many occasions when I was able to reach out to these customers, they changed their minds. They even recanted, but then it depended on what reviews new customers came across whether they saw that reversal or made the connection it was the same person. And if a star system averages all input, the rating is still being pulled down even if there was a recant.
As to Amazon, products there are mostly physical and so they can differ in manufacturing so that one person gets a klunker and another gets a good one. I recently bought a Cintiq and had I gone by the reviews, I'd never have bought. Nothing but trouble, lag, parallax problems, connection troubles. Then I saw a video of a Japanese anime artist using it and decided to get it. I love this tablet.
Discussing the products in the forum allows for elaboration, questions on the input, imagery examples and the ability for the creator to either help or get feedback that prompts an update. It works far better, imo, than a rating system which has far too many flaws that can hurt my sales.
The flaw with that is that most people use products because they had an image in mind while some get inspired by the product to make an image. Sometimes customers love a product (or many products), but haven't decided on an image which would employ it.
I don't think any method is without flaws, though. You can't tell from forum posts whether someone has actually bought and paid for the item or not. I've seen people comment or give advice on items they obviously have no direct experience with.
But yeah. There's one product where all the gallery images linked are mine, since I enjoy using it. And I know some things just get used a lot because they came with the V8 pro pack, like the Voss Hair, which also happens to be a really, really nice item in its own right. Sometimes the PA is bad at promos, or it's an old item, but if I see the item looking good in a gallery image, I'll still buy it.
I do think daz should have a review tab for those who bought a product to be able to give a review on it . not so much a rating system because thats is subjective. But rendos review tab are helpful to me because a lot of times questions i would have on a products like compatibilty or text maps, bugs that should be adressed, or questions like does this this poser item wrok in daz? is all very good information to know as a customer looking to buy a product. . ect A daz product review tabs I believe would be as helpful to customers here . I do agree a rating system is subjective , because people do have their favorite artist.
Personally, I think this thread is a good indication of why it wouldn't work; folks disagree and for different reasons.
Reviews don't really reflect that unless perhaps there are an aweful lot - even then they will not suit all. It is so simple to return; if cash is an issue, return it to the card - as one doesn't have to have credit.
Then just ignore the ratings. There, that was easy.
I don't necessarily care about stars and such, I care about what people write. For example: I bought a product on Rendo after reading the product description. The description did not mention that items which you would expect to be individual items (chairs and desks in a classroom are actually just one object. You can't pull a chair away from a desk, or re-arrange the desks and chairs into a different configuration. So I left a review stating such. I gave it 3 stars instead of 5 because I thought that was a significant issue.
Another example: I bought a hair product here recently for Genesis 8 female. It renders beautifully, looks gorgeous. But, it's a ponytail, and there is VERY little control over the tail. Can't curve it, can't lay it over a shoulder, etc. I would like to leave a review about it, but can't in any meaningful way.
But stars or numbers without explanation are useless, I would agree there.
Agree wholeheartedly. For those who don't like reviews, just ignore them. Pretty simple.
I disagree that it provides no real advantage. As with anything, people will abuse it, as they do with refunds, I'm sure.
But, there is no way to communicate with a vendor here that I have found. In an example I gave about a hair product having very little control, a review might prompt the creator of the item to update it at some point. Yes, my review would then be out of date, but it would seem a simple matter, programmatically, to identify the product version in the review. Even if there is no review, a way to contact the vendor would be helpful.