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I was thinking of raiding the couch cushions myself ;)
Laurie
actually, 1080tis over here are in the region of £900-1000; I'd probably have bought at least one but for the RAM issue, but W7 should solve that RAM problem for rendering... And I can wait, I'd sooner have the cash I've saved up stay in my bank account. :)
what I wonder, is how good this would be for rendering: https://www.scan.co.uk/products/16gb-pny-nvidia-quadro-p5000-pascal-2560-cores-gddr5x-256-bit-288-gb-s-89-tflops-4x-dp-14-dual-slot-
Samsung just started production last month on their new ASIC chip, so hopefully reliefis on its way soon! The chip is designed for crypto work.
For me, I put zero fiat into cyrpto, I started by earning bitcoin through doing small tasks, then traded. I got lucky with a few. I never earned a whole lot, though when the price was near 20k for one bitcoin, that little bit turned in to almost 800.00 usd. not too bad for something that most think is bunk.
I wish I had the money a year ago, 1070s were I think around 400.00 and 1060 6gig models were 250 to 300.00
...the MSRP for the 1070 at release was 379$. Nvidia still offers the Founders edition for 399$ through their in house store (of course dependent on if they will be back in stock again).
...well Quadros are geared towards CG production and rendering. 16 GB should pretty much guarantee scenes will stay in VRAM as all Quadro and the new Titan cards (Xp and V) also allow for switching WDDM off for rendering purposes (so all VRAM would be available under W10). Considering what 1080 Ti's are going for today, may not be a bad deal if you have the resources.
True they fewer cores, but Quadros tend to be more efficient for CG production work and consume less power (180 W, same as for the 8 GB 1070 Ti).
It's a lot to spend to find out it isn't suitable; but I can put up with not as fast as the 1080ti as the 1080ti sucks at cpu rendering. :)
...the major advantage is a more robust card and higher VRAM. If you are into creating large very involved scenes (particularly rendering in large resolution output), more VRAM is preferable to more cores. Quadros use a different driver set than GTX cards which make them more well suited to CG work.
In anticipation of this new cryptocurrency, I have purchased the world's supply of squirrels and set up a wonkel mining operation. I have a few extra squirrels I can sell to interested parties for just $12,000.99 each, or for just 120 wonkel apiece.
You can hook up ~20 GPUs to a single machine right now. Look at the link below. But doing that with CPUs is not at that level yet. Also GPUs are still vastly superior to CPUs for certain tasks. I very much doubt there'll be a CPU shortage any time soon.
https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA7RD6FC1190&nm_mc=OTC-FroogleCA&cm_mmc=OTC-FroogleCA-_-Motherboards+-+Intel-_-ASUS-_-9SIA7RD6FC1190
...yeah, the Summit Supercomputer being built for Oak Ridge Labs uses Volta Tesla 100 compute units (16 GB HBM 2 at 6 per module) and custom NVLInk boards along with IBM's new Power9 CPUs. Yes, arrays of GPUs with high stream processing core counts can crunch numbers far faster than CPUs.
Sadly, given the link above, for us it means the more cryptomining (basically little more than the latest "get rich quick with little work" scheme) is being supported by manufacturers, the less chance we will see affordable GPU cards for our needs anytime soon as that is now where the big profits are.
Looking more seriously at recertified Dell workstations with dual high core count Xeons and high memory (64 GB or more) to set up a rendering network and just sticking with CPU rendering.
I had $$$ set aside for a new card after Christmas when they were $800. Now the price has doubled due to price gougers. No thanks. I'll wait.
There is an Iray bench here https://www.migenius.com/products/nvidia-iray/iray-benchmarks-2016-3
The P5000 should be comparable to a 1070 in term of performance.
Thanks for that.
Quadros are faster on Double Precision operations and when using the special features on the boards (Bus Mastering, and on new Quadros the onboard deep learning circuits). Iray is single precision and will not see any speedup when used for DS on a Quadro, so you've got an expensive GeForce at that point. nVidia IS adding deep learning to Iray that will use the Quadro's circuits, but AFAIK that is not publicly available yet (and even when it is, DS isn't likley to use it).
Kendall
...though with twice the VRAM
Not true. Nvidia has actually advocated their board partners to give gamers preference over miners when possible. This is their statement:
"For NVIDIA, gamers come first. All activities related to our GeForce product line are targeted at our main audience. […] To ensure that GeForce gamers continue to have good GeForce graphics card availability in the current situation, we recommend that our trading partners make the appropriate arrangements to meet gamers’ needs as usual."
Basically they have asked retailers to limit the number of cards people can buy in a purchase, in an attempt to at least slow down miners a bit.
The card makers do not like mining. It detracts from their true core audience. Miners work cards very hard, and thus they fail much more than normal. That means miners are abusing warranties. When Nvidia made an attempt at selling cards made just for mining, they only gave them 3 MONTH warranties. That should tell you just how much they see miners returning cards under 3 year warranties. And while card prices have gone up at retailers, Nvidia and AMD are not the benefactors of market changes as they still sell their cards to retailers at the same price.
Mining is truly hurting PC right now. And it is not slowing down. The market cannot keep up with demand, and that is not going to change anytime soon. They cannot just suddenly increase production because of many other limitations, like the shortage of RAM chips. The RAM shortage has also been going on for quite a while. The RAM markers have other priorities: smart phones and similar devices. And then there is an additional issue: This new demand is not at all guaranteed to continue. Crypto markets have been highly volatile, and it is entirely possible for it to crash. And then what happens? You have ramped up production of video cards that will not sell. It would be a huge gamble for manufacturers to just increase demand strictly based on mining. That is why this situation is different. Mining truly is cancer. Mining is setting up the market for a massive crash. And when the market crashes, it will hurt a lot of people as well. If GPUs suddenly take a nose dive, then the new generation of cards might be greatly impacted and not sell as well, which will hold up innovation and progress.
This whole thing started when AMD was unable to supply enough cards. AMD cards have consistently been better at mining for a long time. But AMD has very serious production problems. So while AMD is preferable for miners, they cannot keep up with demand, thus the miners turn to Nvidia. I personally do no believe that AMD will ever be able to keep up with demand until the actual mining boom itself dies. And while Nvidia has openly spoke against miners, AMD has been far more receptive of them. I believe this is mostly due to their market position. They are simply desparate to sell their hardware, and so they are more willing to support them. If AMD could produce cards faster, things would change for us Iray users who need Nvidia.
I do not believe Samsung will have any impact at all on the market. They would need to mass produce these cards, and I have no reason believe that is the case. Plus, miners would have to desire them. The biggest reason miners buy regular gaming GPUs is exactly because they are regular GPUs. They can resell them to hungry gamers. The mining cards Nvidia made seem to have flopped, and it is in large part because they have no resell value. I very much doubt Samsung's cards will have demand at all, unless they are absolute beasts at hash rates. Otherwise they are doomed to be flops as well.
BTW, those mining cards have made me wonder how well they would work for Iray. They have no video ports at all. So does that mean a mining card would not be effected by Windows 10 reserving VRAM? That would be an interesting prospect for a secondary Iray GPU. As far as I can tell, the Nvidia mining cards were all based on 1060's. Of course that 3 month warranty is major buzz kill. But I am just curious how Windows treats them.
This should also act as a warning to people here using GeForce cards for heavy rendering. THESE CARDS ARE NOT DESIGNED TO RUN FULL OUT FOR EXTENDED PERIODS OF TIME. I you are doing a lot of renders that run your cards for hours then you should be looking at Quadro's which ARE designed to run for extended periods.
Kendall
I think most people that use Daz wont be rendering on their GPUs for that long. As long as you have one of the later Geforce models, renders should not take that long. I quite often play games for longer periods of time in one sitting than any one render would take. If your renders are taking that long, you are either using old/low end GPU, or you are rendering massive scenes at huge resolutions, which most people around here do not
in
...Yes Quadros are better for rendering, but most of us don't have comfortable five and six digit incomes to afford them. The lowest priced "useful" Quadro, the 8 GB P4000, has an MSRP more than twice that of the 1070 (pre Crypoto rush) yet does not offer the same rendering performance. Most people I see requesting help in selecting a new system are working with a budget that is under 2,000$ A year ago that got you a pretty decent system which most likely would have a 1070 or 1080 Ti, 32 GB of memory a 500MB SSD, a 2 - 3 TB HDD and an 6 - 8 core CPU. A single "new" P5000 retails for 1,999$ (Nvida store), effectively costing as much as it takes to build an entire system even with a 1070 at today's ridiculous prices.
Even the most avid 3D enthusiast comes no where near to torturing a card like Cryptomining does. The average GPU render job takes maybe an hour at best, longer if it is an extremely complex scene. When it's done one goes off to work on another scene while the card sits idle, at the most, running the displays. For one we, at least I believe a good number of us, don't overclock our GPUs like gaming enthusiasts do to get improved frame rates. Meanwhile miners push these cards well beyond their normal operating parameters and force then to run at those levels 24/7 for months and months on end, often in less than ideal operating conditions. If anything, it is the miners with dreams of big payouts who should be the ones using Quadro and Tesla cards (Nvidia has a limit of 5 per customer for those).
I've had to ditch Iray and go back to 3DL because I cannot afford 900$ - 1,200$ for a 1070, which would be able to support 75% maybe 80% of my scenes, and frankly am wary of super long CPU render times hammering my 5 year old air cooled first generation i7. 399$ for a 1070, the price at the Nvidia store, I could handle, and was saving for one before prices shot into the ionosphere. The downside they are sold out all the way up to the new 3,000$ Titan V. A 4 GB 1050 Ti won't cut it, a 6 GB 1060 (priced at around and in some cases even higher than where a 1070 should normally be) is barely borderline. I'm better off just hanging on to what I already have put away until prices come back down to earth or Nvidia notifies me they have 1070s in stock again (whenever that may be).
It should also serve as a warning for people buying used cards. The odds that they have been heavily abused have risen.
...excellent points. Pretty much the way I am seeing the situation.
Like I mentioned, should he bubble pop, I have no intention to consider the used market, even on my extremely tight budget, as those cards will have been pretty much trashed by the months and months of torture they've been put through.
The flame that burns twice as bright burns half as long.
--Lao Tzu
Well my 1070 never goes to more than about 55-60% fan speed (GPU temperature about 60° C, with a room temperature over 25°) when rendering so I'd expect there's room for a good deal more. I don't think they design the cards so that they burn out quickly when not even running at max temperature at any time. It costs a good deal of money (perhaps more than they earn from selling it) to replace a card that burns out and needs to be replaced under warranty which may be 3 or even 5 years. And NVidia, when licensing to DAZ and other 3D companies, should know that many of their cards will be used for rendering.
Another thing is that constant temperature shifts may be just as damaging as constant high heat because of the constant expansion and contraction of the materials the components are made from.
But since it's the temperature that's the problem, not how much the card is being used, the solution is just to keep the card well cooled. If you can keep all components on the card below 45-50° C permanently it can probably run constantly at full speed for years.
Indeed, which I have considered; waiting to see what happens with new products this year.
The cost of video cards went up cause the cost of RAM went up.
The cost of 11 Gigs of DDR5 RAM went up $500-700.00?
I'm no expert on manufacturing costs, but I kinda doubt that.
Kendall - I'm about 50-50 on this. The two key items are "extended periods of time" and "full out". I don't think here's a problem with 90%+ GPU utilization provided that the card is not running near the thermal limits, and as long as the render is under an hour or so. But I agree that trying to push the Geforce cards to thermal limit and do production-level pipelining is a sure-fire way to an early death for them.
"For the average system, our rule of thumb at Puget Systems is that the CPU should run around 80-85 °C when put under full load for an extended period of time. We have found that this gives the CPU plenty of thermal headroom, does not greatly impact the CPU's lifespan, and keeps the system rock stable without overdoing it on cooling. Lower temperatures are, of course, better (within reason) but if you want a target to aim for, 80-85 °C is what we generally recommend."
https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Impact-of-Temperature-on-Intel-CPU-Performance-606/
There's no reason to believe that this should not be true for GPUs also as it's the same technology, so if your GPU is at just 60° C during full load, it would probably not affect its lifetime much. Mine, which is factory overclocked, hardly gets over 60° C at any time, no matter how long time I render.
The problem may more be with other components on the card, but as there usually are no temperature sensors for these it's hard to tell how hot they get.
0% agree. Nothing in the CGU says "cannot be used continuously 24/7". Buy a card. Render 24/7 with it. If it fails then return it under warranty because the product is defective
..and mining even more so.