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ENOUGH Sexy Bikini Women

FauvistFauvist Posts: 2,290
edited July 2017 in The Commons

Can't you create clothing that wrinkles like normal clothing?  Clothing that reacts to ordinary body movements instead of being smooth and stiff no matter what position the figure is in.  We all have enough sexy babes and skimpy oufits.

And please don't tell me that it's all that sells.  If you created normal reacting clothing it would sell too.

Post edited by Fauvist on
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Comments

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 109,502

    You are, I think, confusing two issues - secy clothing, which does sell better than plain clothing, and realistic draping, which is very hard going on impossibly to do in a static model with morphs.

  • Daywalker DesignsDaywalker Designs Posts: 3,586
    Richard Haseltine said:

    You are, I think, confusing two issues - secy clothing, which does sell better than plain clothing, and realistic draping, which is very hard going on impossibly to do in a static model with morphs.

    It can be done, but takes much more work to pull off successfully.

  • BlueIreneBlueIrene Posts: 1,318

    I've got a vague recollection of reading somewhere that bikinis are the first thing that a lot of PAs create when a new base is released because it helps them get a handle on the figure - a bit like the modeling equivalent of 'Hello World' when taking on a new programming language. Not sure why so much of it would end up in the store though.

  • FauvistFauvist Posts: 2,290
    Richard Haseltine said:

    You are, I think, confusing two issues - secy clothing, which does sell better than plain clothing, and realistic draping, which is very hard going on impossibly to do in a static model with morphs.

    I bet you that normal clothing, like shirts and suits and pants, that wrinkle like real clothes, would outsell bikinis.  Draping is not wrinkling.  Draping is caused by gravity and wind etc.  Wrinkling is caused by compression or twisting or extension etc.  I've given up on drapable clothing from DAZ.  Why not try wrinkleable clothing?

  • AscaniaAscania Posts: 1,855

    Because wrinkling still uses the same mechanisms as draping with the same issues Richard already mentioned.

  • FauvistFauvist Posts: 2,290
    edited July 2017

    I don't understand.  Why can you make morphs to wrinkle a forehead, but not a shirt?  https://www.daz3d.com/xtreme-forehead-wrinkles-hd-for-genesis-3-male-s

    https://www.daz3d.com/aging-morphs-2-for-genesis-2-female-s-v6-hd

    Post edited by Fauvist on
  • AlmightyQUESTAlmightyQUEST Posts: 2,006
    You can't bend your forehead in the middle the same way you can bend at the elbow or waist. It is very complex to get that to look believable. And "everyday" clothes are often judged on a different standard than "sexy" clothes, often you will see when a set like that is released, there will be threads with some folks listing all the reasons they won't be buying it, because it doesn't open 40 different ways, because the wrinkles look wrong from a certain bend of the waist and wrist together, and so on. Then vendors go back to what sold before. I still appreciate and look for exactly the kind of clothing you are asking before, but I understand why we get what we get from seeing that happen since years ago.
  • FauvistFauvist Posts: 2,290
    AlmightyQUEST said:
    I still appreciate and look for exactly the kind of clothing you are asking before, but I understand why we get what we get from seeing that happen since years ago.

    Can't it be done with displacement or normal maps.  Look - if I can do it in 5 minutes surely it can be done.

    wrinkles.png
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  • ChangelingChickChangelingChick Posts: 3,381
    Fauvist said:
    AlmightyQUEST said:
    I still appreciate and look for exactly the kind of clothing you are asking before, but I understand why we get what we get from seeing that happen since years ago.

    Can't it be done with displacement or normal maps.  Look - if I can do it in 5 minutes surely it can be done.

    Wrinkles done with normal maps or displacement wouldn't move with the position of the clothing. They'd be permanent. You could have an arm stretched out straight and the clothing would be wrinkled like it was bent. Yes, wrinkles in clothing *can* be done, but to make them look correct in every position is, as Richard stated, nigh impossible in a static mesh. You'd have to model wrinkles in *every* position possible. So, can it be done-- yes. Is it practical? Not with a static mesh. Certainly not at a price people would be willing to pay.

  • EcVh0EcVh0 Posts: 535
    Richard Haseltine said:

    You are, I think, confusing two issues - secy clothing, which does sell better than plain clothing, and realistic draping, which is very hard going on impossibly to do in a static model with morphs.

    I can imagine the amount of JCMs you need to put onto the clothes, it will probably take just as long to develop a piece of clothing as a DAZ figure lol

  • EcVh0EcVh0 Posts: 535
    ChangelingChick said:
    Fauvist said:
    AlmightyQUEST said:
    I still appreciate and look for exactly the kind of clothing you are asking before, but I understand why we get what we get from seeing that happen since years ago.

    Can't it be done with displacement or normal maps.  Look - if I can do it in 5 minutes surely it can be done.

    Wrinkles done with normal maps or displacement wouldn't move with the position of the clothing. They'd be permanent. You could have an arm stretched out straight and the clothing would be wrinkled like it was bent. Yes, wrinkles in clothing *can* be done, but to make them look correct in every position is, as Richard stated, nigh impossible in a static mesh. You'd have to model wrinkles in *every* position possible. So, can it be done-- yes. Is it practical? Not with a static mesh. Certainly not at a price people would be willing to pay.

    Simply add the math in, assuming each joint rotation can be stimulated by one JCM, and each joint has 3 rotations (bend, twist, side to side), and you have like what, 30+ joints on the body?

    That would make it at least 90 JCMs to make, not only it takes literally forever, but also it's gonna make your file size HUGE

  • EcVh0EcVh0 Posts: 535
    Fauvist said:
    Richard Haseltine said:

    You are, I think, confusing two issues - secy clothing, which does sell better than plain clothing, and realistic draping, which is very hard going on impossibly to do in a static model with morphs.

    I bet you that normal clothing, like shirts and suits and pants, that wrinkle like real clothes, would outsell bikinis.  Draping is not wrinkling.  Draping is caused by gravity and wind etc.  Wrinkling is caused by compression or twisting or extension etc.  I've given up on drapable clothing from DAZ.  Why not try wrinkleable clothing?

    Would you buy it if someone put up a $30 T-shirt that does what you want?

  • LeatherGryphonLeatherGryphon Posts: 12,235

    I was going to come in and shout "Dead Horse" but even that has become old.  So, instead of expired equines, I'll interject "Sacred Cows".  You can't muck with the sacred cow of the catalog.  Without them you'd lose 80 percent of the artists.  surprise

  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 2,904
    ChangelingChick said:
    Fauvist said:
    AlmightyQUEST said:
    I still appreciate and look for exactly the kind of clothing you are asking before, but I understand why we get what we get from seeing that happen since years ago.

    Can't it be done with displacement or normal maps.  Look - if I can do it in 5 minutes surely it can be done.

    Wrinkles done with normal maps or displacement wouldn't move with the position of the clothing. They'd be permanent. You could have an arm stretched out straight and the clothing would be wrinkled like it was bent. Yes, wrinkles in clothing *can* be done, but to make them look correct in every position is, as Richard stated, nigh impossible in a static mesh. You'd have to model wrinkles in *every* position possible. So, can it be done-- yes. Is it practical? Not with a static mesh. Certainly not at a price people would be willing to pay.

    +1

    The extra time to develop all the morphs needed, and all the JCM's to control the morphs (like EcVh0 noted) would make a very expensive product. You would also probably see constant complaining in the forums because the product simply didn't look right in this pose or that pose that the vendor never thought anyone would use.

  • FauvistFauvist Posts: 2,290
    EcVh0 said:
    Fauvist said:
    Richard Haseltine said:

    You are, I think, confusing two issues - secy clothing, which does sell better than plain clothing, and realistic draping, which is very hard going on impossibly to do in a static model with morphs.

    I bet you that normal clothing, like shirts and suits and pants, that wrinkle like real clothes, would outsell bikinis.  Draping is not wrinkling.  Draping is caused by gravity and wind etc.  Wrinkling is caused by compression or twisting or extension etc.  I've given up on drapable clothing from DAZ.  Why not try wrinkleable clothing?

    Would you buy it if someone put up a $30 T-shirt that does what you want?

    Basic mens clothing - a t-shirt, a short sleeve sports-shirt, a long sleeve dress shirt - if they looked real and wrinkled naturally, I would pay $30 for each - because you can use them a million times in different renders.   A knee only bends one way, and so does an elbow.  Compression wrinkles only happen along the length of a sleeve or pant.  I spend HOURS painting wrinkles and folds in Photoshop and Painter over the top of DAZ clothing. 

     

  • FauvistFauvist Posts: 2,290
    ChangelingChick said:
    Fauvist said:
    AlmightyQUEST said:
    I still appreciate and look for exactly the kind of clothing you are asking before, but I understand why we get what we get from seeing that happen since years ago.

    Can't it be done with displacement or normal maps.  Look - if I can do it in 5 minutes surely it can be done.

    Wrinkles done with normal maps or displacement wouldn't move with the position of the clothing. They'd be permanent. You could have an arm stretched out straight and the clothing would be wrinkled like it was bent. Yes, wrinkles in clothing *can* be done, but to make them look correct in every position is, as Richard stated, nigh impossible in a static mesh. You'd have to model wrinkles in *every* position possible. So, can it be done-- yes. Is it practical? Not with a static mesh. Certainly not at a price people would be willing to pay.

    Wrinkles done with displacements maps can be dialed in at different strengths.  A 25%  bent elbow and a 80% bent elbow can be done with the same map dialed in at different strengths.

  • FauvistFauvist Posts: 2,290
    edited July 2017

    I also make a lot of use of Poser's cloth room to make dynamic clothes look normal, then export them as static props to DazStudio - but it's all really really time consuming.

     

    Poser Dynamic Cloth in DAZ.png
    630 x 776 - 132K
    Post edited by Fauvist on
  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 40,586

    Virtual World Dynamics

    found elsewhere

    nail all the item and it conforms and wrinkles with bends

  • FauvistFauvist Posts: 2,290
    th3Digit said:

    Virtual World Dynamics

    found elsewhere

    nail all the item and it conforms and wrinkles with bends

    I thought that product was forbidden or something?

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 40,586
    edited July 2017
    Fauvist said:
    th3Digit said:

    Virtual World Dynamics

    found elsewhere

    nail all the item and it conforms and wrinkles with bends

    I thought that product was forbidden or something?

    no that's another thing a script

    this is fine but an off site commercial product and there are forum TOS against linking and promoting non-DAZ3D products

    well at least they apply to me

    I see off site links everywhere but I cannot make them

    Post edited by WendyLuvsCatz on
  • ChangelingChickChangelingChick Posts: 3,381
    Fauvist said:
    ChangelingChick said:
    Fauvist said:
    AlmightyQUEST said:
    I still appreciate and look for exactly the kind of clothing you are asking before, but I understand why we get what we get from seeing that happen since years ago.

    Can't it be done with displacement or normal maps.  Look - if I can do it in 5 minutes surely it can be done.

    Wrinkles done with normal maps or displacement wouldn't move with the position of the clothing. They'd be permanent. You could have an arm stretched out straight and the clothing would be wrinkled like it was bent. Yes, wrinkles in clothing *can* be done, but to make them look correct in every position is, as Richard stated, nigh impossible in a static mesh. You'd have to model wrinkles in *every* position possible. So, can it be done-- yes. Is it practical? Not with a static mesh. Certainly not at a price people would be willing to pay.

    Wrinkles done with displacements maps can be dialed in at different strengths.  A 25%  bent elbow and a 80% bent elbow can be done with the same map dialed in at different strengths.

    Different strengths, yes, but not different positions. An elbow bent at 25% doesn't have the same wrinkling as one bent at 80%, or if it's above the head or below, or if the shoulder is bent as well. 90 JCMs would be just for the single joint morphs. When you start adding in the changes that would occur because the other joints are in too... it gets very complicated very fast. 

     

    Fauvist said:
    th3Digit said:

    Virtual World Dynamics

    found elsewhere

    nail all the item and it conforms and wrinkles with bends

    I thought that product was forbidden or something?

    It even has Carrarra and DS bridges available.

  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 2,904
    ChangelingChick said:
    Fauvist said:
    ChangelingChick said:
    Fauvist said:
    AlmightyQUEST said:
    I still appreciate and look for exactly the kind of clothing you are asking before, but I understand why we get what we get from seeing that happen since years ago.

    Can't it be done with displacement or normal maps.  Look - if I can do it in 5 minutes surely it can be done.

    Wrinkles done with normal maps or displacement wouldn't move with the position of the clothing. They'd be permanent. You could have an arm stretched out straight and the clothing would be wrinkled like it was bent. Yes, wrinkles in clothing *can* be done, but to make them look correct in every position is, as Richard stated, nigh impossible in a static mesh. You'd have to model wrinkles in *every* position possible. So, can it be done-- yes. Is it practical? Not with a static mesh. Certainly not at a price people would be willing to pay.

    Wrinkles done with displacements maps can be dialed in at different strengths.  A 25%  bent elbow and a 80% bent elbow can be done with the same map dialed in at different strengths.

     

    Also, you would not only need wrinkles for bends, but also for joint twist and side slide. So it would become increasingly complex to get a really good product.

    I've spent most of my life doing geospatial work (mapping, remote sensing, modeling of the earth's surface, etc.) and 3D is very similar. the more accurate/detailed the data/model, the more expensive and time consuming it is to create. The expense isn't a linear scale either, it's more like a logarithmic scale. Where 80% accuracy/detail may $xxx, 90% accuracy/detail typically will be 20-40 times (or more) the cost/investment of the 80% version. so for a vendor to regain the investment on that uber realistic t-shirt, the cost to the user may well be in excess of $200.00, which of course would dramatically reduce the number of buyers, and the vendor may not ever recover the cost of development.

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715
    Astracadia said:

    I've got a vague recollection of reading somewhere that bikinis are the first thing that a lot of PAs create when a new base is released because it helps them get a handle on the figure - a bit like the modeling equivalent of 'Hello World' when taking on a new programming language. Not sure why so much of it would end up in the store though.

    It sells. cheeky

  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,905
    Fauvist said:
    Richard Haseltine said:

    You are, I think, confusing two issues - secy clothing, which does sell better than plain clothing, and realistic draping, which is very hard going on impossibly to do in a static model with morphs.

    I bet you that normal clothing, like shirts and suits and pants, that wrinkle like real clothes, would outsell bikinis.  Draping is not wrinkling.  Draping is caused by gravity and wind etc.  Wrinkling is caused by compression or twisting or extension etc.  I've given up on drapable clothing from DAZ.  Why not try wrinkleable clothing?

    since Daz3d sells both pants, tee-shirts and bikini's, there is a chance that they have sales numbers on each?

  • MendomanMendoman Posts: 404

    Hmmm, I think OP didn't really mean draping morphs like from VVW or Blender, or that they follow gravity if your character is standing on his hands, but rather simpler wrinkles to make the piece of clothing look more real. Maybe something like here: https://www.daz3d.com/wetlook-outfit-for-genesis-3-female-s

    I'd love to have wrinkle dials like that product on all my clothing items, and I would be willing to pay few extra bucks for those. They really do make a difference.

     

  • TaozTaoz Posts: 10,299
    edited July 2017
    th3Digit said:
    Fauvist said:
    th3Digit said:

    Virtual World Dynamics

    found elsewhere

    nail all the item and it conforms and wrinkles with bends

    I thought that product was forbidden or something?

    no that's another thing a script

    this is fine but an off site commercial product and there are forum TOS against linking and promoting non-DAZ3D products

    well at least they apply to me

    I see off site links everywhere but I cannot make them

    As I understand it, they are not allowed if they are unsolicited. If someone asks where they can find this or that product it's OK to link to another store that has it (at least I haven't had any problems with it).

    Post edited by Taoz on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 109,502
    Taoz said:
    th3Digit said:
    Fauvist said:
    th3Digit said:

    Virtual World Dynamics

    found elsewhere

    nail all the item and it conforms and wrinkles with bends

    I thought that product was forbidden or something?

    no that's another thing a script

    this is fine but an off site commercial product and there are forum TOS against linking and promoting non-DAZ3D products

    well at least they apply to me

    I see off site links everywhere but I cannot make them

    As I understand it, they are not allowed if they are unsolicited. If someone asks where they can find this or that product it's OK to link to another store that has it (at least I haven't had any problems with it).

    Correct

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,830
    edited July 2017

    Well that offsite commercial script that is NOT VWD doesn't seem to work anymore with the latest DAZ Studio Beta and the author didn't answer a request for whether they have validated their script for the latest version of DAZ Studio Beta.

    As far as the bikini women & such products why not just filter and sort by Top Sellers according to different genres and artists to see what really sells?

    Here is the Top 24 with only products that include clothing as part of the product:

    Top 3 clothing only items ranked as top sellers:

    9th : Genesis 8 Female / Victoria 8 Lingerie

    11th: Genesis 8 Female Shool Sports Outfits

    20th: Genesis 8 Female Mega Wardrobe

    Of course there are bundles that include clothing:

    1st:  Victoria 8 Pro Bundle

    5th:  Morpheus Bundle (not exactly a sexy charming lot)

    10th Pretty Base Next Generation Bundle

    13th: Michael 7 Pro Bundle

    16th: Lainey Bundle for Genesis 8 Female

    23th: Gianni 7 Pro Bundle

    24th. Victoria 7 Pro Bundle

    1st item on the Top Sellers that is strictly a men's only clothing item is:

    61st: Desperado HD Clothes for Genesis 3 Male(s)

    although bundles with some clothing are at

    45th: Detective Bundle (includes building set and such non-clothing items)

    53th: Leo 7 Pro Bundle

    Post edited by nonesuch00 on
  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 12,022
    edited July 2017
    EcVh0 said:
    Richard Haseltine said:

    You are, I think, confusing two issues - secy clothing, which does sell better than plain clothing, and realistic draping, which is very hard going on impossibly to do in a static model with morphs.

    I can imagine the amount of JCMs you need to put onto the clothes, it will probably take just as long to develop a piece of clothing as a DAZ figure lol

    I wonder if something like that could be done with a full body suit - and then there can be a line of clothes based on that body suit (basically retexturing of the body suit to create shirts, pants, tank tops, etc)?

    Post edited by 3Diva on
  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,649
    edited July 2017

    Ah, the dead horse rises from its grave again, lol.  I'm going to comment once, and then I'm not coming back to this thread because it will be the same people as always yelling at me for not doing the thing that they want.

    Clothes with wrinkles take longer to make.  Time is money.  This has some realistic folds, took nearly a month to make with getting all the morphs and JCMs done, and has so far sold 278 copies and my cut has been about $1600.  $1600 in a month (before taxes) will not cover my mortgage and car payment, let alone internet, phone, gas, food, etc.  Fortunately for me I had something else out in that same time period, and Daz put some things on sale that boosted my catalog sales.  I did all right, but I can't afford to do that often unless I bust my butt to also get a smaller product out in the same timeframe.  And I don't even have kids to support, just a whiny cat.

    If I made a whole suit, with multiple pieces and enough morphs for me to consider it finished, and it's possible that I may, it will probably cost $30 because it could easily take two to three months to get made and through QA.  This is not an exaggeration.

    And then I will be competing with Daz Originals that cost less than $10, go on sale all the time, and have limited folds and wrinkles (because the artist had to get them done super fast, not because they're not talented).  Then thousands of people buy the cheaper one and complain instead of the more expensive one that took longer.  And I have no incentive to ever make any larger clothing set because it takes too long.  The entire reason I did loincloths and not a suit to begin with is that rigging sleeves/pants is harder and takes longer, and people will buy the skimpy thing.

    This is why I mostly don't make clothes any more.  I need a product out every 1-2 weeks.

    Post edited by SickleYield on
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