Loading...
> >

3D Print

135

Comments

  • MarcCCTxMarcCCTx Posts: 945

    Important note: if your work area is cold the plastic seems less likely to stick to the bed. (Humidity may also have something to do with this.) It's cold and rainy outside.

  • kaotkblisskaotkbliss Posts: 2,914

    Do you have a heated printbed?

  • MarcCCTxMarcCCTx Posts: 945

    Yes, and I have been having great luck until last night, nothing would stick. Change the tape, raised the heat, lowered the heat, nothing. I finally found an old glue stick to make it work.

  • kaotkblisskaotkbliss Posts: 2,914

    I've found that hairspray works really good. I've also heard of some people using superglue LOL

  • wizwiz Posts: 1,100
    Chohole said:

    Think about it,  you are a PA,  you have just spent 3 months totally building a fantasy figure from scratch and now it is being sold to Daz customers as a totally original figure,  then somebody comes along,  buys one copy while it's on sale and promptly runs of an amount on his cheap home 3d printer and flogs them at the local fleamarket,   Are you going to be pleased that someone else is coining in money based on your 3 months work and completely destroying the originality of your figure.

    Describe how the tiny figure output of a "cheap home 3d printer" which can barely be recognized as human, let alone as a particular figure, destroys "the originality" of a figure, while large graphical images that show the form and texture in extreme detail do not "destroy" said "originality".

    Chohole said:

      before you have even recouped a fraction of the expense?     

    Again, how are the 3d prints any different than the 2d images?

    Chohole said:

    And by expense I mean the fact that thsi has taken 3 months labout,  3 months with nothing coming in until the sale is a done deal.

    Sunk costs.

    I've yet to see anyone make a cogent business case for excluding 3d prints from the existing licensing scheme.

    • A 2d image (painting, engraving, movie, etc) may sell for a high price in a small quantity (possibly a single unit).
    • A 3d image (sculpture, 3d print, cast bronze, etc) may sell for a high price in a small quantity (possibly a single unit).

    Or either may make a decent profit for the artist by selling in much larger quantities at a much lower price (graphic novel, figurine, etc.)

    Or either may bomb.

    In any case, from a product and marketing standpoint, there's not a smidgen of difference.

     

  • wizwiz Posts: 1,100
    jestmart said:

    I think the problem is what nemesis10 alluded to, how to write an agreement allowing 3D prints that doesn't create a loophole for people to 'steal' the mesh rights.

    Ever had a look at an STL or .gcode file? You can't "steal" the mesh rights from them.

  • jestmartjestmart Posts: 4,449

    It isn't about the format, it is about the wording.  Wording in legal documents most also be 'water tight' so someone can't claim that they have permission when they don't.

  • ValandarValandar Posts: 1,417

    If you're using PLA, something that works even better than hairspray (even in cold areas) is glue stick. Sadly, it has to be Elmer's glue stick, the other brands are such garbage they don't stick well - the PLA doesn't stick, and the glue actually peels off in a sheet from the bed.

    Just rub the stick across the bed, making sure all of it gets covered but also that you don't cake it on. It gives the bed a rough enough surface that prints stick to it, but also is super-easy to clean up after a few prints - the gluestick is water soluble.

  • kaotkblisskaotkbliss Posts: 2,914
    jestmart said:

    It isn't about the format, it is about the wording.  Wording in legal documents most also be 'water tight' so someone can't claim that they have permission when they don't.

    I think I'm understanding what Chohole was trying to say now. I always read water tight as the physical build of the model (i.e. such as no openenings from the outside that lead to the inside, such that if you were to place the model in a liquid, the liquid couldn't get inside)

    but your comment sounds like water tight is a term used specifically for 3d printing rights.

  • ValandarValandar Posts: 1,417

    Both have to be watertight - the prints, and the wording on useage rights.

  • DzFireDzFire Posts: 1,473

    Again, Daz3D sells/brokers the rights for 2D prints or animated prints. 3D physical prints are something new that Daz3D was getting into but we haven't come to any agreements on how it should be sold. There are other sites that sell the limited rights for such prints. It really falls under copyright issues.

  • VoltisArtVoltisArt Posts: 212
    edited March 2017

    I don't understand why this restriction against commercial 3D prints is in place.  Sure, disallow sharing files publicly or with another vendor, but to restrict DAZ customers who have printers from selling prints?  That seems more being selfish than protecting intellectual rights.  DAZ is a content company, not an end product company.  Its vendors sell content, not end products.  Where's the competition that needs to be scared off?  Somebody buying a desk ornament is not taking away from anything any of us digital designers makes.  Even a massive print is not a reasonable way to translate and recreate the original digital mesh, so that argument shouldn't be a factor in this.

    As for DAZ getting into 3D printing...okay, that's fine, but even so is it really helpful to monopolize a particular print market, rather than encourage more 3D printing vendors to join us and buy in to DAZ software?  Will we also have this licensing problem when holography becomes the new fad?

    People are already selling 2D images of posters, signs, packaging, book covers and TV commercials.  How does making any of this in plastic string, (or sand – let's not forget the color 3D prints,) rather than photons or ink particles, make a difference?

    Dz, since you said you're selling prints of your models, perhaps you can clarify on this.  Would restrictions on default poses and props/vehicles (as the only thing being printed) seem a reasonable compromise?  You being a mech designer, I can see how this would be an issue for you, particularly if you want to sell prints of your own designs.  What about one of your mechs in an action pose, within a scene including things you didn't make and would have to purchase in order to recreate, yourself – what would be the reasoning behind restricting that?

    I have yet to sell any of my models, but I don't see a problem with people printing and reselling those prints.  I'd be terribly flattered, even if I was also selling prints.  This is nothing like copying an image from the internet and printing it to sell, because the original artwork is not duplicated.  It might even increase sales as more people become aware of the design.

    Post edited by VoltisArt on
  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,781

    Well restricting the rights so that people can't sell 3D prints is really arbitrary, not logical from a business perspective. No one is going to get anywhere near an accurate printout of a DAZ model to scan back in with a 3D scanner and it be the same as the original digital form for electronic resale. LOL, you can't even round-trip a DAZ format model for editing in DAZ Studio as FBX file without loosing alot of the original DAZ format specifications. 

    That said if you were to create a successful book or graphic novel where you used DAZ to create illustrations or covers and decided it made good business sense to sell figurines of the characters and scenes and such based on the book or that book series then you'll probably have earned more that enough to farm out that task to a professional 3D modeler using Blender, Maya, 3DS Max, or what have you. DAZ makes it possible for you to do what you are paying them to do, very true, but you needn't short change yourself because of DAZ's restriction on 3D printing.

    That said, if you want to really sale 3D prints of characters, but really haven't the business case, ie you are speculating, just learn the basics of modeling and texturing to use MakeHuman & Blender. All these tools are making it so much easier to create so many 3D models without successful IP behind them are rather like commodities such as wheat and corn. Looks are fine but those characters still have to get from point a to point b or the exess is more like chaff than wheat. LOL, although you can consider them gold if dawdling around with them keeps you out of trouble.

    However, if a book has successful IP behind it than those mostly worthless models become very valuable. A figure make of china I bought in Zurich when I lived there (explaining some of the ridiculous price) cost like 125 Swiss Francs over 15 years ago. It was one of those Disc World figurines from Terry Prachett's IP if you are curious. I considered collecting them but stopped at that 1st one give how expensive they are. I think they are actually cheaper now since the whole 'Disc World' fad is now so passe.

    Personally, 3D printing is very interesting to me from my 'nerd' perspective but the 3D printed objects are too flimsy, too expensive, and no supporting IP to consider 3D printing for myself now from a speculative stance.

  • dawhittington87dawhittington87 Posts: 18
    Where is the line drawn though? Say I take the base geniuses 3 female and morph it until until it's unique and visual appearance is unlike anything published in the store expect for the fact that it resembles a human. Now say I export the file obj and so on to be worked on in another program altering the figure further. There's nothing left of the skeleton I've lowered my poly count my mesh is altered. It can't be reversed back into the original geniuses form all likenesses are gone. Using daz as nothing more than a base reference for the human anatomy. At what point does my endless hours of work constitute as my own design.
  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 12,846
    dawhittington87 said:
    Where is the line drawn though? Say I take the base geniuses 3 female and morph it until until it's unique and visual appearance is unlike anything published in the store expect for the fact that it resembles a human. Now say I export the file obj and so on to be worked on in another program altering the figure further. There's nothing left of the skeleton I've lowered my poly count my mesh is altered. It can't be reversed back into the original geniuses form all likenesses are gone. Using daz as nothing more than a base reference for the human anatomy. At what point does my endless hours of work constitute as my own design.

    When you start with your own mesh and not anything made by DAZ or a PA

  • Subtropic PixelSubtropic Pixel Posts: 2,388

    I'll make it simple for DAZ and our beloved PAs; no word salad necessary:

    I'm ALREADY slowing down my purchases partly BECAUSE the 3D printing thing still hasn't been worked out.

    I am slowing down my DAZ purchases, and this is one of the top-3 reasons why.  Sure, I'm only one person, but I'll bet I'm not the only one. 

    What the heck, you haven't done anything on this, DAZ.  I stopped using Hex and Bryce because of inaction, and NOW my store purchases are down because this is a big issue and it hasn't even been touched.

    Stop procrastinating, DAZ.  Fix this so that everybody can do their thing and so that the PAs can still be profitable.  You're wasting valuable time and opportunity.

  • dawhittington87dawhittington87 Posts: 18
    FSMCDesigns said:
    dawhittington87 said:
    Where is the line drawn though? Say I take the base geniuses 3 female and morph it until until it's unique and visual appearance is unlike anything published in the store expect for the fact that it resembles a human. Now say I export the file obj and so on to be worked on in another program altering the figure further. There's nothing left of the skeleton I've lowered my poly count my mesh is altered. It can't be reversed back into the original geniuses form all likenesses are gone. Using daz as nothing more than a base reference for the human anatomy. At what point does my endless hours of work constitute as my own design.

    When you start with your own mesh and not anything made by DAZ or a PA

    I understand your point but would it not be a different mesh at that point, what say someone imports the mesh into blender, deletes and rearranges vertices into a perfect sphere? If I melt down a gold ring, and cast it into my own design it wouldn't be infringing any kind of copyright. It be incredibly hard for the previous jeweler to make a case for it.
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 108,785
    dawhittington87 said:
    FSMCDesigns said:
    dawhittington87 said:
    Where is the line drawn though? Say I take the base geniuses 3 female and morph it until until it's unique and visual appearance is unlike anything published in the store expect for the fact that it resembles a human. Now say I export the file obj and so on to be worked on in another program altering the figure further. There's nothing left of the skeleton I've lowered my poly count my mesh is altered. It can't be reversed back into the original geniuses form all likenesses are gone. Using daz as nothing more than a base reference for the human anatomy. At what point does my endless hours of work constitute as my own design.

    When you start with your own mesh and not anything made by DAZ or a PA

     

    I understand your point but would it not be a different mesh at that point, what say someone imports the mesh into blender, deletes and rearranges vertices into a perfect sphere? If I melt down a gold ring, and cast it into my own design it wouldn't be infringing any kind of copyright. It be incredibly hard for the previous jeweler to make a case for it.

    If you want to start from scratch, do so. If you use someone else's work (in this case Daz') then you are bound by their terms.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,090

    You are free to think someone is being unreasonable, or even stupid. You aren't free to unilaterally change the terms of using their stuff.

     

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,781

    Really, given the costs of printing in 3D and the lack of quality no one should honestly be speculating by printing out a run of characters in 3D. If you create a character in DAZ Studio that is wildly popular in some graphic novel or something you're just either going to have to hire somebody to recreate it from scratch outside of DAZ Studio or ask DAZ Studio if you can print a run in 3D. Honestly if you have a character that popular it is likely that it would be smarter to hand over the design & manufacture to toy companies that have a lot of experience in such matters anyway.

  • dawhittington87dawhittington87 Posts: 18
    Say this started as a daz figure geniuses 3, and this star is the the end result. I can publish this star in my book, but I may not 3d print this star and sell it. But no two vertices are in the same space time. I understand owning the rights to pattern of vertices. But you cant own the concept of vertice being an individual point in a 3 dimensional space.
    A4uql.png
    1925 x 1047 - 342K
  • dawhittington87dawhittington87 Posts: 18
    Fair use act: In its most general sense, a fair use is any copying of copyrighted material done for a limited and “transformative” purpose, such as to comment upon, criticize, or parody a copyrighted work. Such uses can be done without permission from the copyright owner.Apr 4, 2013
  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,781
    dawhittington87 said:
    Say this started as a daz figure geniuses 3, and this star is the the end result. I can publish this star in my book, but I may not 3d print this star and sell it. But no two vertices are in the same space time. I understand owning the rights to pattern of vertices. But you cant own the concept of vertice being an individual point in a 3 dimensional space.

     

    If you truly started with a Genesis 3 character then you still can't use that star for a commercial 3D print. That is what the EULA says. 

  • dawhittington87dawhittington87 Posts: 18
    Though some of you find my questions annoying they are important. A lawyer would be asking the same question. As for 3d printing not being there yet. I highly disagree with sla and dip printers being under $1000 now anything is possible
    unnamed.png
    640 x 480 - 224K
  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,781
    edited May 2017
    dawhittington87 said:
    Though some of you find my questions annoying they are important. A lawyer would be asking the same question. As for 3d printing not being there yet. I highly disagree with sla and dip printers being under $1000 now anything is possible

    Well then you should discuss those things with a lawyer and not with forums members that have no access to the law libraries a lawyer would have access to or your business plans.

    Post edited by nonesuch00 on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 108,785
    dawhittington87 said:
    Fair use act: In its most general sense, a fair use is any copying of copyrighted material done for a limited and “transformative” purpose, such as to comment upon, criticize, or parody a copyrighted work. Such uses can be done without permission from the copyright owner.Apr 4, 2013

    None of which appear to apply here. Fair use is a lot less inclusive than many people realise.

  • tj_1ca9500btj_1ca9500b Posts: 2,057

    Just leaving this here:

    https://www.copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html

    The pundits here can dissect this.  As to whether the Daz EULA overrides the 'fair use' concept is another matter.

    The question I have is, how much did Stephen Colbert's production team have to pay Daz (and the appropriate content providers) to use the Minotaur?   I'd argue that that is a MUCH more commercial use of the 3D model than someone cranking out a mini minotaur on their own printer to personally use in their , group's D&D game.  And this particular use (a Daz product being used on broadcast televsion) isn't something that a game developer license really applies to (you aren't using the figure in a game...), although for all I know the GDL might cover use of Daz models in movies, etc. outside of gaming.

    Daz's competitors have obviously been a bit forward thinking on this.  At the very least Daz should look at a licensing program for anyone that wants to produce 3D models commercially based on a Daz model, that compensates the content providers accordingly.  Sure it's a bit of work for the legal team, but 3D printing is very much upon us at this point.  And maybe a 'very affordable' license for people printing stuff for their own use only.

  • DAZ_RawbDAZ_Rawb Posts: 817

    As far as printing for your own personal use, we do have a 'very affordable' license available right here in the current EULA, included with every purchase for the low-low price of $0.00:

    The creation of three-dimensional physical representations (3D-print, molded copy, CNC-routed copy, and the like)
    of Content or any three-dimensional art derived from the Content is permitted only for personal, non-commercial
    use by the User. Additionally, the user may not grant other entities or individuals the right to produce such physical
    representations of the Content except for the sole purpose of providing the print to the User for their personal use.

    So, if you want to create 3D prints of any content you bought from Daz for your D&D game, please do. Also, send pictures because that would be cool. 

  • PetercatPetercat Posts: 2,321

    Okay, so let me see if I've got this straight...
    3D printing of DAZ scenes for resale is impossible under the current terms.
    If I have, say, a clothed figure and a background, since 3D printing, as said above, is part of the PAs
    business model, to get it printed, I would have to:
    Separate out the parts made by each PA.
    Send those parts to the PAs who created them, to be printed in 3D.
    Glue them all together after I got them back.
    Yeah, kind of rough if the figure is clothed. Rougher if I've kitbashed the outfit.
    PAs want to make money off of 3D printing? Not going to happen under the current terms.
    Change the terms. Each PA could offer a limited license to print their items for resale.
    Then they'd start making money. Like, right away. With no extra labor on their part.
    Unless the license is $1000.00 or so.
    Make it cheap, we are talking about individual artists making limited runs, not MegaCorp.
    You'd probably sell more originals, as well.
    But right now, under the current terms, you're making zero. And will for the forseeable future.
    Because few people will want your figures. We, and our fans, want our interpretations of your
    figures, outfitted as we make them, in environments and scenerios that we chose.
    I don't want a 3D print of Andrea for Genesis, and neither do my readers.
    We want a 3D print of my (Andrea-based) creation Teresa, with clothes, hair and backgrounds from my webcomic.
    So change the terms and start making some extra money, already!

  • PetercatPetercat Posts: 2,321
    tj_1ca9500b said:

    And maybe a 'very affordable' license for people printing stuff for their own use only.

    You don't need a license to print stuff for your own use.

This discussion has been closed.