3D Print

Oso3D

Oh duh, I forgot to keep it in my sig when I updated last. Ha.

Still at http://willbear.deviantart.com/ !

 

FSMCDesigns

Petercat said:

Well, this whole issue is ridiculous. 3D printing is a fast-growing market, and right now nobody is making any money off of it. DAZ should come up with a solution, because the most popular items at present would probably be figurines printed from works of artists who have created popular characters in webcomics and other art venues.
They won't print them to sell because of the EULA restrictions, and DAZ can't print them to sell because they are derivitave works, and thus, the copyright belongs to the end creator.
I wish someone at DAZ would come up with a licensing plan that would allow individual artists to profit from their work, because under the current rules, no one is.
Which is, as I said, ridiculous.

In a perfect world maybe. There are already quite a few stores online selling all kinds of copyrighted 3D printed figurines, including DAZ assets unfortunately. Since there are way too many people that obviously will do as they want, it probably is in the best interest for DAZ to come out with a licensing plan for 3D printing sooner, rather than later.

Petercat

timmins.william said:

Oh duh, I forgot to keep it in my sig when I updated last. Ha.

Still at http://willbear.deviantart.com/ !

 

Thanks. I've watched you now so I'll be able to find you easily. Sometimes I just need a bit of day-brightening.

Valandar

I've been holding my tongue up to now, but those demanding the right to manufacture 3D prints for money from DAZ content, this is the scenario you are proposing:

Multiple PA's spend anywhere from a week to a few months working on each, individual product, making sure the geometry is right, the textures, the rigging, all of it. They upload it to DAZ with theknowledge that their work will be used by artists and hobbyists to make utterly awesome pictures and animations.

Someone buys the products, assembles them, then says "I'mma sell this after I print it!", when they did not do the vast majority of the actual work involved.

Perhaps, PERHAPS, a license similar to the game content license could be offered, specifically for 3D printing. It would assume the user understands the requirements for 3D printing (such as watertight meshes, manifold surfaces, etc). But that's for someone in the Legal department to decide, not a lowly PA.

Oso3D

Valandar: how is that argument any different than the current situation with 2d art?

Anyone can grab content, slap it together, and sell posters.

This is without any animosity or frustration, I honestly don't understand the distinction being drawn.

Male-M3dia

timmins.william said:

Valandar: how is that argument any different than the current situation with 2d art?

Anyone can grab content, slap it together, and sell posters.

This is without any animosity or frustration, I honestly don't understand the distinction being drawn.

I think it falls down to reuse; you generally can't reuse parts of a poster, but you most certainly can use parts of a mesh, especially when distributed. 

Oso3D

The topic is selling stuff you've 3D printed, not trading meshes.

 

Male-M3dia

timmins.william said:

The topic is selling stuff you've 3D printed, not trading meshes.

 

The same thing applies, that's probably the part that you're missing. Anything that involves the possible manipulation of the mesh (such as preparing it for 3D printing) would involve a licence. Also the using 3d prints from a brokerage where they don't own all the content a person may want to print would be an issue, like using content for games.

Oso3D

Are you claiming I can't alter a mesh, render and sell the image?

Chohole

An image is not likely to be just an image of one model rendered onto a plain background.   An image for sale, tbh is going to need to be a complete picture.  Scenery, background, props, lights good composition, camera setting etc etc.

Male-M3dia

timmins.william said:

Are you claiming I can't alter a mesh, render and sell the image?

You can't alter someone else's mesh for commercial use. That's in the EULA. That issue then spills into 3D printing.

EDIT: If you're talking about 2D images and not distributing the phyiscal mesh itself you're fine. 3D, you can't.

kaotkbliss

timmins.william said:

Valandar: how is that argument any different than the current situation with 2d art?

Anyone can grab content, slap it together, and sell posters.

This is without any animosity or frustration, I honestly don't understand the distinction being drawn.

I have to agree

A PA spends months painstakingly working on creating the perfect mesh and sells it on Daz. With the current licensing, anyone could take that mesh and create a hit comic, or video game (Using 2d animated sprites) and make a whole lot more than the pa made off his mesh and really I think the market for comics and games is much bigger than the random figurine market. and even if it weren't, the pa wouldn't lose any sales off their mesh because someone was printing them. People would still buy them just the same to create their own art. If anything the pa's market would increase due to people wanting to get the mesh to print it.

The only exception I can see is the one pa who mentioned that they also sell 3d prints, but then at the same time, what they are selling and what someone else would create and print would be completely different figures with completely different looks.

 

Male-M3dia

kaotkbliss said:

timmins.william said:

Valandar: how is that argument any different than the current situation with 2d art?

Anyone can grab content, slap it together, and sell posters.

This is without any animosity or frustration, I honestly don't understand the distinction being drawn.

I have to agree

A PA spends months painstakingly working on creating the perfect mesh and sells it on Daz. With the current licensing, anyone could take that mesh and create a hit comic, or video game (Using 2d animated sprites) and make a whole lot more than the pa made off his mesh and really I think the market for comics and games is much bigger than the random figurine market. and even if it weren't, the pa wouldn't lose any sales off their mesh because someone was printing them. People would still buy them just the same to create their own art. If anything the pa's market would increase due to people wanting to get the mesh to print it.

The only exception I can see is the one pa who mentioned that they also sell 3d prints, but then at the same time, what they are selling and what someone else would create and print would be completely different figures with completely different looks.

 

The only way a PA would make money from this is if you have a specific commercial 3D printing licence with that PA, just like you would with a game license. We see no money in the manner with you describe. You're thinking we would get a cut from DAZ, which we wouldn't.. separate products, separate licensing.

Oso3D

Chohole: a fair amount of my paid work is actually a single figure on a simple backdrop (texture, color, transparency)

Props, certainly, but Id expect that to be true of, say, '3D print minis ' that were at all financially viable.

I can understand some arguments to limit 3D printing, particularly the arbitrary and slow nature of legal stuff.

I can somewhat get the not sending files to 3D print services/mesh argument.

But 3D printing something at home and selling it being fundamentally different than 2d prints/images? I don't see it.

kaotkbliss

Male-M3dia said:

 

 

The only way a PA would make money from this is if you have a specific commercial 3D printing licence with that PA, just like you would with a game license. We see no money in the manner with you describe. You're thinking we would get a cut from DAZ, which we wouldn't.. separate products, separate licensing.

I was talking about sales from meshs, selling the products in Daz store and that was exactly my point, Pa's don't get a kick-back when we make games (using 2d animated sprites) or a comic, or a poster or whatever and none of that hurts a pa's sale. 3d printing a figure (which would have to be posed, clothed edited to add thickness in paces that are too thin and painted before being sold) also would not take away from a pa's sales.

The only problem is if a customer sends the mesh to a company to be printed rather than home printing, at which point the mesh is being shared which is against the EULA, unless there were some special "3rd party printing" license kind of like the game licenses for making 3d games.

And of course, the problem with that is, how is anyone to know if the model was printed at home or sent to a 3rd party to be printed.

Oso3D

That problem exists for 2d, though it's an open argument whether an obj file is more or less 'useful' for 2d images than a mesh file would be for 3d. It's also FAR easier to do it in 2d (I mean, Export. Done)

 

Male-M3dia

kaotkbliss said:

Male-M3dia said:

 

 

The only way a PA would make money from this is if you have a specific commercial 3D printing licence with that PA, just like you would with a game license. We see no money in the manner with you describe. You're thinking we would get a cut from DAZ, which we wouldn't.. separate products, separate licensing.

I was talking about sales from meshs, selling the products in Daz store and that was exactly my point, Pa's don't get a kick-back when we make games (using 2d animated sprites) or a comic, or a poster or whatever and none of that hurts a pa's sale. 3d printing a figure (which would have to be posed, clothed edited to add thickness in paces that are too thin and painted before being sold) also would not take away from a pa's sales.

The only problem is if a customer sends the mesh to a company to be printed rather than home printing, at which point the mesh is being shared which is against the EULA, unless there were some special "3rd party printing" license kind of like the game licenses for making 3d games.

And of course, the problem with that is, how is anyone to know if the model was printed at home or sent to a 3rd party to be printed.

But the mesh is in a form that it can be altered and reused in another product, hence the issue and licensing.. So yes a PAs can incur a loss if that mesh is used for other than printing. but the issue is thorny enough where there hasn't been much movement on 3D priniting licencing issues other than personal use.

dawhittington87

wsterdan said:

dawhittington87 said:

ghastlycomic said:

I'm holding off on getting a 3D printer until the quality improves. Right now the technology is at 1970's dot matrix printer level. I'll wait at least until it gets to the 1990s inkjet printer level.

Had lots of people ask me if I'd sell figurines of my Lolo Hai chibi figure. I told I will as soon as 3D printers can make them look as good as the Iray renders.

Please. I'm looking at buying the printer that printed this. I don't understand why people cant understand this simple concept we have moved beyond plastic filament. These machines are running $800-$5000. Affordable. Highly Detailed can print 25 micron layers. Lasers and resin.

Looks good, is that from an $800 printer or closer to the $5000 one?

-- Walt Sterdan

The ones I'm looking at are just under $2,000 price point. Though $2000 isn't cheap it's affordable compared to what they used to cost. It's about what I spent building my pc. I've seen a few for around $500 but it's safe to say results would be sub par. There are some getting pumped out of kick starter around $1000 that do make some really nice prints. One thing I learned about filament printing which could likely apply to sla is that software can be more Important than the physical components. Most filament printers have a nozzle .4 mm, and contain similar step motors. But where the difference in quality can be found is in The execution. How it slices how the print head behaves. I plan to buy shortly after Xmas, as the prices continue to drop rapidly.

Oso3D

Im intrigued but most of my budget for such things is consumed by my computer and, well, Daz. ;)

kaotkbliss

Male-M3dia said:

But the mesh is in a form that it can be altered and reused in another product, hence the issue and licensing.. So yes a PAs can incur a loss if that mesh is used for other than printing. but the issue is thorny enough where there hasn't been much movement on 3D priniting licencing issues other than personal use.

How is a physically printed model in a form that can be altered and reused? Sure, I could take an xacto knife and chop the head off, or cut the arms and legs and reposition them, but how does that apply?

nemesis10

kaotkbliss said:

Male-M3dia said:

But the mesh is in a form that it can be altered and reused in another product, hence the issue and licensing.. So yes a PAs can incur a loss if that mesh is used for other than printing. but the issue is thorny enough where there hasn't been much movement on 3D priniting licencing issues other than personal use.

How is a physically printed model in a form that can be altered and reused? Sure, I could take an xacto knife and chop the head off, or cut the arms and legs and reposition them, but how does that apply?

This is a situation where there are a lot of things in play:

1) you may make 2d images and use them in a way that is pretty much unencumbered; you have contractually agreed to do so and no assets are transfered,
2) you can print for yourself 3d models for your own use; Daz grants this and no assets are transfered,
3) you may not print 3d models for sale; you have contractually agreed not to do and you do not have rights to distribution i.e.. the difference between watching a movie with your friends and renting a theatre and charging people to see the same movie,
4) you may not send out out 3d models for others to print: again, you have contractually agreed to do and you do not have rights to distribution as well as assets being transfered from you to the printer.

The rule is that you have the rights to the stuff that is contractually agreed but anything outside the contract is excluded as opposed that you can do anything tha isn't mentioned in the contract.

Male-M3dia

kaotkbliss said:

Male-M3dia said:

But the mesh is in a form that it can be altered and reused in another product, hence the issue and licensing.. So yes a PAs can incur a loss if that mesh is used for other than printing. but the issue is thorny enough where there hasn't been much movement on 3D priniting licencing issues other than personal use.

How is a physically printed model in a form that can be altered and reused? Sure, I could take an xacto knife and chop the head off, or cut the arms and legs and reposition them, but how does that apply?

The transferred file itself, not the result. The licensing issue would be due to the multiple PAs and DAZ content... like game content, not everyone is signing off its use.. and ultimately it's their product, not DAZ's.

dawhittington87

I think they are worried if people sell 3d prints that others will buy and scan the 3d prints back into a digital for sell copy's. But that's a poor reason. The figurine market wouldn't be able to handle the saturation they would sit and not sell. And also they would be left with just a mesh and no rigging or textures, not exactly worth reverse engineering.

kaotkbliss

nemesis10 said:

kaotkbliss said:

This is a situation where there are a lot of things in play:

1) you may make 2d images and use them in a way that is pretty much unencumbered; you have contractually agreed to do so and no assets are transfered,
2) you can print for yourself 3d models for your own use; Daz grants this and no assets are transfered,
3) you may not print 3d models for sale; you have contractually agreed not to do and you do not have rights to distribution i.e.. the difference between watching a movie with your friends and renting a theatre and charging people to see the same movie,
4) you may not send out out 3d models for others to print: again, you have contractually agreed to do and you do not have rights to distribution as well as assets being transfered from you to the printer.

The rule is that you have the rights to the stuff that is contractually agreed but anything outside the contract is excluded as opposed that you can do anything tha isn't mentioned in the contract.

I know what the current EULA is and what is/is not allowed, which is why we are discussing if there is a possible way and the reason's that 3d printing is currently not allowed with the home 3d printing becomming more common place

 

Male-M3dia said:

The transferred file itself, not the result. The licensing issue would be due to the multiple PAs and DAZ content... like game content, not everyone is signing off its use.. and ultimately it's their product, not DAZ's.

But I don't have to transfer any files. I have a kinda decent Qidi Tech x-one printer right next to me...

But I do understand that if I didn't, I would have to send the mesh to a printing company which is clearly against the EULA, printing aside, it still violates the sharing meshes part. That part I understand and even though a printing company is super unlikely to do anything with the meshes sent to them, I understand that part of it.

It just really stinks that there's nothing I can do as a 3d printer owner except make novelty prints for myself.

 

dawhittington87 said:

I think they are worried if people sell 3d prints that others will buy and scan the 3d prints back into a digital for sell copy's. But that's a poor reason. The figurine market wouldn't be able to handle the saturation they would sit and not sell. And also they would be left with just a mesh and no rigging or textures, not exactly worth reverse engineering.

I don't think they are worried about someone getting hold of a 3d model then making a 3d scan of it because #1 - the quality would be very poor, #2 - it would have no rigging or weight maps so all that would have to be done, and #3 - there are no textures so those would have to be created as well as all the UV maps. Plus, depending on the model pose, many parts would have to be remodeled like fingers and toes as they would all be 1 piece after the scan instead of seperate digits, eyes, mouth would have to be remodeled, etc.

With all that work, might as well just buy the 3d figure.

Male-M3dia

kaotkbliss said:

It just really stinks that there's nothing I can do as a 3d printer owner except make novelty prints for myself.

If you make your own meshes and sculpts, you could make as many prints as you want. If you are relying on the work of others, you would have to abide by their licenses until they find something that works for both the PAs and the customers. 

FSMCDesigns

kaotkbliss said:

 

It just really stinks that there's nothing I can do as a 3d printer owner except make novelty prints for myself.

There is lots you can do, grab a modeling program and make your own meshes. I have quite a bit of meshes I have made over the years and I am on the brink of getting a 3D printer, but quality and cost have made me pause several times already. I have a buddy I know from a game studio I did work for and he has a Formlabs form 2 resin printer and i tried a few aircraft, a ship and even took some makehuman figures, posed them and added some armor I made to them and they came out pretty nice, so I am also waiting for a 3D printing license from DAZ to see what new options I might have when I decide to get a printer.

My buddy printed an Abrams tank he developed for a game his studio was working on and added more detail to it, and it is amazing looking and sits on his book shelf.

DAZ assets aren't the only game in town, they are just the easiest and of a higher quality which is why they should have a special license to use them for commercial 3D printing.

kaotkbliss

Male-M3dia said:

If you make your own meshes and sculpts, you could make as many prints as you want. If you are relying on the work of others, you would have to abide by their licenses until they find something that works for both the PAs and the customers. 

Yeah, I tried sculpting at one point, my human head looked like a bad Salvador Dali painting...

dawhittington87

kaotkbliss said:

nemesis10 said:

kaotkbliss said:

This is a situation where there are a lot of things in play:

1) you may make 2d images and use them in a way that is pretty much unencumbered; you have contractually agreed to do so and no assets are transfered,
2) you can print for yourself 3d models for your own use; Daz grants this and no assets are transfered,
3) you may not print 3d models for sale; you have contractually agreed not to do and you do not have rights to distribution i.e.. the difference between watching a movie with your friends and renting a theatre and charging people to see the same movie,
4) you may not send out out 3d models for others to print: again, you have contractually agreed to do and you do not have rights to distribution as well as assets being transfered from you to the printer.

The rule is that you have the rights to the stuff that is contractually agreed but anything outside the contract is excluded as opposed that you can do anything tha isn't mentioned in the contract.

I know what the current EULA is and what is/is not allowed, which is why we are discussing if there is a possible way and the reason's that 3d printing is currently not allowed with the home 3d printing becomming more common place

 

Male-M3dia said:

The transferred file itself, not the result. The licensing issue would be due to the multiple PAs and DAZ content... like game content, not everyone is signing off its use.. and ultimately it's their product, not DAZ's.

But I don't have to transfer any files. I have a kinda decent Qidi Tech x-one printer right next to me...

But I do understand that if I didn't, I would have to send the mesh to a printing company which is clearly against the EULA, printing aside, it still violates the sharing meshes part. That part I understand and even though a printing company is super unlikely to do anything with the meshes sent to them, I understand that part of it.

It just really stinks that there's nothing I can do as a 3d printer owner except make novelty prints for myself.

 

dawhittington87 said:

I think they are worried if people sell 3d prints that others will buy and scan the 3d prints back into a digital for sell copy's. But that's a poor reason. The figurine market wouldn't be able to handle the saturation they would sit and not sell. And also they would be left with just a mesh and no rigging or textures, not exactly worth reverse engineering.

I don't think they are worried about someone getting hold of a 3d model then making a 3d scan of it because #1 - the quality would be very poor, #2 - it would have no rigging or weight maps so all that would have to be done, and #3 - there are no textures so those would have to be created as well as all the UV maps. Plus, depending on the model pose, many parts would have to be remodeled like fingers and toes as they would all be 1 piece after the scan instead of seperate digits, eyes, mouth would have to be remodeled, etc.

With all that work, might as well just buy the 3d figure.

That was kind of my point, no one is trying to rip off PAs by distributing prints.... no one has given a good reason, daz refuses weigh in on the matter. Their lazy and just don't care they are already making money. The easiest thing they can do is leave the Eula the way it is right now. Or they are waiting to strike a some kind deal or have one already with the right printer printing companies that desire exclusive right to printing.

Cris Palomino

As all views seem to have been expressed and are now covering the same ground, we are locking the thread.