Not good, not good at all....

24

Comments

  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 12,855
    hphoenix said:
    RAMWolff said:

    I'm a techo happy person . Right now I'm listening to the radio using the Amazon Tap.  What a great device.  I just ask it what the wheather is and I get a run down of the weather, then ask it to play me SomaFM Secret Agent Radio and on it comes... So if some where to hack this.... hey as long as I can listen to my radio I'm happy.  Have at it!  lol

    Until someone hacks your playlist, changes it to nothing but Justin Beiber, and sets it to read-only..... wink

    Oh the horror!!!! crying

  • exstarsisexstarsis Posts: 2,128
    edited October 2016
    hphoenix said:

     What if someone stole your phone?  Hacked that network.  Turned off the lights just as you were stumbling downstairs half-asleep so you fall and injure yourself?  Turn everything in every room except your bedroom on after you go to bed and off again before you wake up so your electric bill skyrockets and the power consumption risks electrical fires.  Lots of possibilities.

    These things do NOT need that kind of network connectivity.  Being able to monitor your security cameras from your phone is great, until you realize that if the 'bad' guys got access to it, they could turn them off while they rob you.  Being able to control your thermostat while not at home is great, until some hacker decides you annoy them and they set it so you come home to a house that is freezing in winter and boiling in summer, just because they can.  Being able to see what's in your refrigerator from the store is great, until a bug in the control app (or a hacker) decides to cause all such refrigerators to set the temp to 70F so that you (and thousands of others) come home that evening to a refrigerator full of spoiled food.

    I like the quote from Jurassic Park....."Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should."

    These are all possibilities suggested by (I suspect) somebody who has never been hacked. Mischief-hacking is rare, and pretty easy to track down. What hackers actually do with 'smart' things is log into your account and try to use your Paypal account to send themselves a gift card--and that's done by an automated script, not personal targeting. They want your money, one way or another. Smart stuff unconnected to a money account is unlikely to ever be hacked in a way that personally affects you. Even the OP was about those devices being hijacked to perform DDOS attacks against major targets (or at least targets who can pay ransoms). And what a DDOS does is spam a website until it's nonfunctional. You might have a DDOS botnet running on your computer right now if you have low security or malware, and all you'll notice is that your computer is kind of laggy. If your smart thermostat is hacked, it's going to be far too busy yelling at <target of the week> to misbehave at you. If they made it misbehave at you, why, you'd just unscew it and go back to what you had before, and they'd lose a fragment of their weapon's power.

    BTW, the big thing at risk doesn't seem to be smart thermostats. It's cameras. 

    PS: it takes more than a couple hours without power for food in a closed fridge to start going bad. Youi'd come home, you'd notice, you'd be annoyed, you'd take steps. Nobody is STUCK with their smart devices. They all have manual interactions. I can turn off my smart light _by hand_. I can replace a smart bulb with a normal one. I can replace a broken thermostat.

    Post edited by exstarsis on
  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,381
    edited October 2016
    hphoenix said:
    RAMWolff said:

    I'm a techo happy person . Right now I'm listening to the radio using the Amazon Tap.  What a great device.  I just ask it what the wheather is and I get a run down of the weather, then ask it to play me SomaFM Secret Agent Radio and on it comes... So if some where to hack this.... hey as long as I can listen to my radio I'm happy.  Have at it!  lol

    Until someone hacks your playlist, changes it to nothing but Justin Beiber, and sets it to read-only..... wink

    Oh the horror!!!! crying

    Gag me with a spoon!  HAIL NO!  lol

    Post edited by RAMWolff on
  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 3,955

    "How do you think they survived without fridges in the past. They cured all their meats and fish so it will stay good for a very long time."

     

     

     


    Refrigeration is a modern technology that  covers much more than
    the personal food supply of "consumers"
    please consider its uses in medicine and science
    "smart" refrigeration is a good thing as it protects millions of dollars
    of insulin and other perishable meds  from a catastrohpic  loss via online monitoring.

  • fixmypcmikefixmypcmike Posts: 19,718
     

    As for self driving cars, that is a catastrophe waiting to happen, LOL.

    As opposed to the catastrophe of people-driven cars, which we've had for years.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,114

    The biggest problems self-driving cars have run into is that they follow rules too well and drive too well, so they end up stuck as all the humans around them cut them off and do other obnoxious stuff they won't do.

     

  • Chohole said:

    I live in an old fashioned house.  It was built back in the 1830s.  No way this is ever going to be a smart house. Heck even wireless is almost a no no here, as the walls are 18'-24" think and built of stone.  My radio controlled clocks I have to put on a windowsill the night of clock change, to ensure that they do change.

    When I was a very young child we didn't have a fridge.  Milk was delivered to the door daily, and stored in the coldest room in the house (the larder), standing in a bowl of cold water which was itself stood on a an old piece of marble. A cloth was draped over  the top of the ,ilk bottle with the corners trailing in the water.  Elegant it wasn't, but it did work.  Meat was kept in a meat safe in the larder, which was airconditioned ( one window had a wire grid instead of a pane of glass  smiley )  Washing was done by hand and put through the mangle before being hung on the washing line.

    We survived.

    Never heard a wringer washer called that before (if that's what you're referring to), but I can see why; my mom got her hand caught in one once.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 33,604
    Chohole said:

    I live in an old fashioned house.  It was built back in the 1830s.  No way this is ever going to be a smart house. Heck even wireless is almost a no no here, as the walls are 18'-24" think and built of stone.  My radio controlled clocks I have to put on a windowsill the night of clock change, to ensure that they do change.

    When I was a very young child we didn't have a fridge.  Milk was delivered to the door daily, and stored in the coldest room in the house (the larder), standing in a bowl of cold water which was itself stood on a an old piece of marble. A cloth was draped over  the top of the ,ilk bottle with the corners trailing in the water.  Elegant it wasn't, but it did work.  Meat was kept in a meat safe in the larder, which was airconditioned ( one window had a wire grid instead of a pane of glass  smiley )  Washing was done by hand and put through the mangle before being hung on the washing line.

    We survived.

    Never heard a wringer washer called that before (if that's what you're referring to), but I can see why; my mom got her hand caught in one once.

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Cast-Iron-Mangle-Painted-/152251475741

  • JimbowJimbow Posts: 557

    My point is that we like having our modern life because it makes life better, easier, more secure, etc.

    Not if your smart-home gets hacked devil

  • Stryder87Stryder87 Posts: 899
    Scavenger said:

    I'm just saying.. you people and your enslaved Roombas will be the first against the wall when the robtos take over.

    Oh man... I'm sooooo inspired to do a render of that!!!  Now to try to find a Roomba I can use for this......

  • Chohole said:

    I was close; here in the Colonies, we would call that a wringer, of course. And I do think my mom might have seen one when she was growing up.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 42,308
    ...hacking of a device is one matter. The bigger threat is ransomware whereby a device or computer can be effectively bricked unless you comply with a payment by a given deadline. So suddenly that 1,500$ fridge in your kitchen becomes a giant paperweight (or that 30,000$ car in the garage).
  • The biggest problems self-driving cars have run into is that they follow rules too well and drive too well, so they end up stuck as all the humans around them cut them off and do other obnoxious stuff they won't do.

     

    I'm envisioning the return of highway robbery:

    Man steps into the road in front of your car, knowing that the car will stop and won't let you hit him. His partner comes up beside you with a gun and demands money.

  • CypherFOXCypherFOX Posts: 3,401

    Greetings,

    I decided I'd take a try at the IoT stuff, and picked up a few HomeKit enabled power plugs for lights in my house.  (What happens if it gets hacked, they make my house a disco? ;) )  Specifically HomeKit, because to get the 'HomeKit' label, Apple has requirements for security that are a lot more stringent than the 'do whatever!' that IoT products were using before it.

    My wife and I discovered that it's REALLY damn convienient to say, 'Hey Siri, turn off the downstairs lights', when we're about to go to sleep.  Or any of a half-dozen other equivalent things we've discovered.  Now we don't use a centralized server yet, so they're only available on our home network, etc., but yeah...it's really useful, especially with (1) kids, and (2) lights where the switch is broken.  I'm not sure I'd go with an IoT deadbolt on the house, but the odds are if someone broke in they'd do it by breaking the back door when we're not home anyway.  Home theives are rarely so sophisticated as to crack electronic locks, and sure as heck not in our neighborhood.  They knock, if there's no answer, they go around the house, and if they don't see anybody they smash and grab.

    I admit, I don't see the need for a camera in the fridge, it's not so well organized that we'd be able to see anything anyway, but I'm open to the idea that something could be so useful it would convince me.

    But a wireless temperature/moisture monitor, so I know how cold the freezer is?  So I know whether condensation is forming where I can't see it?  Or a wireless heat monitor, so I know my oven is actually at the temperature I need it to be at?  Hells yes.  A doorbell camera, so I can see who's at the door from work, and maybe even answer it?  Yes, please.  (See above about knock-first home intruders...)  These are all IoT objects.  These are the result of broadly networking things that you might not otherwise have thought was networkable.

    What I really want from IoT though, is a networked scarecrow.  With a squirt gun.  Or just an IR camera on a rotating pole with an electronic squirt gun.  So when the raccoons come out at night and start digging in my yard, I can play a video game 'Squirt the Mask', and scare them off. :)  It'd be fun AND helpful!

    --  Morgan

     

  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 12,855
    CypherFOX said:
     

    What I really want from IoT though, is a networked scarecrow.  With a squirt gun.  Or just an IR camera on a rotating pole with an electronic squirt gun.  So when the raccoons come out at night and start digging in my yard, I can play a video game 'Squirt the Mask', and scare them off. :)  It'd be fun AND helpful!

    --  Morgan

     

    a .22 with a night vision scope would do a better job and be more fun, LOL

  • hphoenixhphoenix Posts: 1,335
    hphoenix said:

     What if someone stole your phone?  Hacked that network.  Turned off the lights just as you were stumbling downstairs half-asleep so you fall and injure yourself?  Turn everything in every room except your bedroom on after you go to bed and off again before you wake up so your electric bill skyrockets and the power consumption risks electrical fires.  Lots of possibilities.

    These things do NOT need that kind of network connectivity.  Being able to monitor your security cameras from your phone is great, until you realize that if the 'bad' guys got access to it, they could turn them off while they rob you.  Being able to control your thermostat while not at home is great, until some hacker decides you annoy them and they set it so you come home to a house that is freezing in winter and boiling in summer, just because they can.  Being able to see what's in your refrigerator from the store is great, until a bug in the control app (or a hacker) decides to cause all such refrigerators to set the temp to 70F so that you (and thousands of others) come home that evening to a refrigerator full of spoiled food.

    I like the quote from Jurassic Park....."Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should."

    These are all possibilities suggested by (I suspect) somebody who has never been hacked. Mischief-hacking is rare, and pretty easy to track down. What hackers actually do with 'smart' things is log into your account and try to use your Paypal account to send themselves a gift card--and that's done by an automated script, not personal targeting. They want your money, one way or another. Smart stuff unconnected to a money account is unlikely to ever be hacked in a way that personally affects you. Even the OP was about those devices being hijacked to perform DDOS attacks against major targets (or at least targets who can pay ransoms). And what a DDOS does is spam a website until it's nonfunctional. You might have a DDOS botnet running on your computer right now if you have low security or malware, and all you'll notice is that your computer is kind of laggy. If your smart thermostat is hacked, it's going to be far too busy yelling at <target of the week> to misbehave at you. If they made it misbehave at you, why, you'd just unscew it and go back to what you had before, and they'd lose a fragment of their weapon's power.

    Agreed, I used the worst-case scenarios.  However, if you think the only people hacking these things are the organized, money-oriented criminal groups then you are sadly mistaken.  That's usually less than 30% of hacking activity that takes place.  The rest are script-kiddies and individuals with axes to grind.  They aren't profit-oriented, they are in it for bragging rights or to send a message.  The person who kills your electric bill using the above maybe the teenage boy who got rejected by your teenage daughter now seeking revenge.  There are plenty of hackers (and groups of hackers) who do the same activities and with the same skills, but for very different motives.

    DDoS attacks are usually common ways to derail someones website.  It's all about silencing the person/people you don't like (or the message you disagree with.)  Money-Oriented hackers aren't looking for DDoS systems.  They are looking at the internal router/switch vulnerabilities to gain root or ring-1 access on the device, so they can then use it to tunnel to a more significant device as a trusted client, or set it up with a port-sniffer to just capture and relay packets outside the internal network.  This is how CC numbers and logins get compromised.

    BTW, the big thing at risk doesn't seem to be smart thermostats. It's cameras. 

    I'd argue it's not just cameras.  It's any device that is connected to a local network.  Put in a port-sniffing relay, and let it feed out to a server somewhere for later pattern-matching software to pull out CC numbers, sessions hashes, and more.  They could be sniffing and relaying the network data for weeks or months before anyone notices.  And it probably wouldn't even be noticed, unless you actually checked your IP data logs and saw stuff going to an odd address you didn't recognize all the time......


    PS: it takes more than a couple hours without power for food in a closed fridge to start going bad. Youi'd come home, you'd notice, you'd be annoyed, you'd take steps. Nobody is STUCK with their smart devices. They all have manual interactions. I can turn off my smart light _by hand_. I can replace a smart bulb with a normal one. I can replace a broken thermostat.

    I didn't say 'without power,' I said they set it to 70F, so it was on, but simply wasn't cooling.  And if they set it that way, you wouldn't notice until stuff got warm.....probably either when one got home from work, or in the morning.  But since nobody is STUCK with these devices, there is no inherent NEED for them to be internet-enabled.  I never said that they couldn't be networked.  Then if you enable an outside access through a single point on your main server, you acknowlege the risks.  But my microwave doesn't need to be 'web-enabled', my lawn-mower doesn't need to a smartphone app to 'drive' it by remote.....anyone can come up with edge cases where such things COULD be useful.  But in general, for the VAST majority of people, these are just additional features, added with very inexpensive (and insecure) hardware, just to charge a disproportionate price for.

     

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 12,058

    Maximum Overdrive. ...Just saying. :P

  • Maximum Overdrive. ...Just saying. :P

    HAH!

    +10 pts. to diva for the 80's movie reference of the week. yeslaugh

  • exstarsisexstarsis Posts: 2,128
    hphoenix said:
    hphoenix said:
    Agreed, I used the worst-case scenarios.  However, if you think the only people hacking these things are the organized, money-oriented criminal groups then you are sadly mistaken.  That's usually less than 30% of hacking activity that takes place.  The rest are script-kiddies and individuals with axes to grind.  They aren't profit-oriented, they are in it for bragging rights or to send a message.  The person who kills your electric bill using the above maybe the teenage boy who got rejected by your teenage daughter now seeking revenge.  There are plenty of hackers (and groups of hackers) who do the same activities and with the same skills, but for very different motives.

    DDoS attacks are usually common ways to derail someones website.  It's all about silencing the person/people you don't like (or the message you disagree with.)  Money-Oriented hackers aren't looking for DDoS systems.  They are looking at the internal router/switch vulnerabilities to gain root or ring-1 access on the device, so they can then use it to tunnel to a more significant device as a trusted client, or set it up with a port-sniffer to just capture and relay packets outside the internal network.  This is how CC numbers and logins get compromised.

    BTW, the big thing at risk doesn't seem to be smart thermostats. It's cameras. 

    I'd argue it's not just cameras.  It's any device that is connected to a local network.  Put in a port-sniffing relay, and let it feed out to a server somewhere for later pattern-matching software to pull out CC numbers, sessions hashes, and more.  They could be sniffing and relaying the network data for weeks or months before anyone notices.  And it probably wouldn't even be noticed, unless you actually checked your IP data logs and saw stuff going to an odd address you didn't recognize all the time......

    Ahem. So... the article in the OP specifically mentioned using DDOS attacks as a form of ransomware, and specifically listed a particular brand of camera as the current vulnerable point. :-) 

    In any case, having worked in IT Operations for most of my adult life, I continue to be unworried about mischief implemented through my connected devices. 

     

  • Man I don't even own a mobile phone !!!

  • ANGELREAPER1972ANGELREAPER1972 Posts: 4,758
    edited October 2016

    this could become a future product for real then Talky Toaster does anyone want any toast?"

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src=" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    Post edited by ANGELREAPER1972 on
  • Stryder87Stryder87 Posts: 899

    When Roomba Attack!!

    When Roomba Attack.jpg
    1024 x 819 - 552K
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 42,308

    this could become a future product for real then Talky Toaster does anyone want any toast?"

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src=" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    ...yes

  • shadowhawk1shadowhawk1 Posts: 2,211

    I do not understand the reliance on start phones, cars, fridges, thermostats and TV’s. How hard is it to look in the cabinets, fridge and pantry to make a list BEFORE you go shopping? Why do I need to connect a coffee maker to the internet? All this does is make people more and more dependent on a technology that is becoming easier to interrupt. How many people know how to change the oil on their cars anymore? Or change a shock or alternator? How many people can go out and hunt and fish to put food on their families table in the event of an economic or social collapse due to a failure of the internet everyone has becomes so dependent on? Thanks to smart phones there is a decline in human interaction in my opinion. Yes the internet has given us instant news, which is not always correct at times. To me an increased reliance on a service is unhealthy and will lead to serious repercussions if/when it fails on a global scale. My personal opinion is that people have become so wrapped up with the internet, they no longer see the danger it can pose. 

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 42,308
    edited October 2016

    ...the sad thing with getting your news outside the Net is most mainstream broadcast sources are very biased these days and more into providing "infotainment" than information and facts.  Even the "printed" sources (those which remain) have slipped more into sensationalism and opinion than actual straight news reporting.

    With the demise of the print medium, people would actually be far less informed and more aisly manipulated as all they would have to depend on are the commercial electronic broadcast sources like the 3 big networks, CNN, and Fox.

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • PetercatPetercat Posts: 2,324
     


    PS: it takes more than a couple hours without power for food in a closed fridge to start going bad. Youi'd come home, you'd notice, you'd be annoyed, you'd take steps. Nobody is STUCK with their smart devices. They all have manual interactions. I can turn off my smart light _by hand_. I can replace a smart bulb with a normal one. I can replace a broken thermostat.

    But if your refrigerator is hacked and put into defrost mode, it can get pretty warm inside that insulated box. You'd come home, find a refrigerator full of warm food, you couldn't fix the fridge, what steps would you take? Throw everything away and buy an unconnected fridge?

    I'm handicapped. I don't need any of my equipment connected to the internet to serve my needs. My shopping list, for example, is a PDA (Palm Lifedrive) with a microphone and voice recognition software that does a pretty good job of transcribing my dictation. I don't need anything more shiney.

    My niece wants me to wear a monitor so that if I have problems, someone will know. The heck with that, the price is too high for me.

  • PetercatPetercat Posts: 2,324

    this could become a future product for real then Talky Toaster does anyone want any toast?"

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src=" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    I remember when self-checkout machines were first put into use, they would announce what every item was as it was scanned. One instance of a loud "ONE DOZEN MAXI-PADS, SUPER ABSORBANT" was enough to kill that idea.

    Personally, I find the machine voices to be annoying. One desirable option that is missing is "Would you like me to shut up?"

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715
    Petercat said:

    this could become a future product for real then Talky Toaster does anyone want any toast?"

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src=" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    I remember when self-checkout machines were first put into use, they would announce what every item was as it was scanned. One instance of a loud "ONE DOZEN MAXI-PADS, SUPER ABSORBANT" was enough to kill that idea.

    Personally, I find the machine voices to be annoying. One desirable option that is missing is "Would you like me to shut up?"

    Hell yes!

    I like smart objects; I'm still waiting for the first to arrive.

    Objects I can interract with, sure, they could be useful.

    Folks don't change their password on their router, or their wifi password; the thought's of all the vulnerabilities in a smart-house is scary. Not because something is likely to happen, but if it does, it is pretty damn inconvenient at best, and takes little time or effort to do.

    Cameras are the worst imo; block them all, tape over em perhaps. They (whoever the hell they are) don't look for individuals as a rule, but for low hanging fruit; don't be low hanging fruit.

  • Stryder87Stryder87 Posts: 899
    nicstt said:

    ... don't be low hanging fruit.

    It's the same rule I tell my friends when we go hiking:  When you encounter a bear, you don't have to be the fastest runner, just don't be the slowest!!

    Unfortunately that point would be moot anyways as I'd be the slowest runner... so I'm lerning to fight the bear!!  laugh

  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 12,855
    Stryder87 said:
    nicstt said:

    ... don't be low hanging fruit.

    It's the same rule I tell my friends when we go hiking:  When you encounter a bear, you don't have to be the fastest runner, just don't be the slowest!!

    Unfortunately that point would be moot anyways as I'd be the slowest runner... so I'm lerning to fight the bear!!  laugh

    LMAO! too true!

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