Vendors, Please Stop Including Mesh Lights

2

Comments

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 13,316
    edited September 2016

    If you are using Iray, using a beauty canvas can help prevent blowouts; you have a lot of tone mapping control without some of the banding problems you get at 8 bit.

    I find this particularly important with scenes showing direct sun (because the range of sun to ground is extreme) or dimly lit/candle-lit rooms.

     

    Post edited by Oso3D on
  • https://www.dropbox.com/s/dmik0s45h56jhhg/Switch off emissive lights.zip?dl=0

    I haven't tested as thoroughly as I would like - I'm not sure which sets are affected - but if someone wants to give this a trial run please do. I have found that the option to select emissive surfaces is touchy, no idea why, but the zeroing seemed to work for me.

  • CybersoxCybersox Posts: 6,068

    There's nothing wrong with including emmisive lights if that's what the vendor wants to do, and as someone who's had to recreate massive arrays of lights for some very elaborate sets that were originally intended for Poser only, I'm really glad for those who take the time to do this.  And honestly, if you don't like the ones that are supplied, it really doesn't take that long to delete the included ones... especially compared to the time required to recreate them for something like a stadium or massive outdoor set. 

     

  • CybersoxCybersox Posts: 6,068

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/dmik0s45h56jhhg/Switch off emissive lights.zip?dl=0

    I haven't tested as thoroughly as I would like - I'm not sure which sets are affected - but if someone wants to give this a trial run please do. I have found that the option to select emissive surfaces is touchy, no idea why, but the zeroing seemed to work for me.

    Oooh.  Nice and thank you!  I already have V3D's Light Manager, but I'll give this a shot once I'm back in the States and see how it plays with the other toys. 

     

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 30,435

    ...there are also times as well when maybe you don't want all the lights in the scene turned on. As I (and i"m sure many others) usually have the scene tab always open when working, it would make more workflow sense if we could turn them off from there like in 3DL.

  • CybersoxCybersox Posts: 6,068
    kyoto kid said:

    ...there are also times as well when maybe you don't want all the lights in the scene turned on. As I (and i"m sure many others) usually have the scene tab always open when working, it would make more workflow sense if we could turn them off from there like in 3DL.

    But isn't that really less of a Vendor issue and more of a DAZ Studio issue in general? Really, the way Iray lights are currently handled is pretty hamfisted and my guess is that we'll see something similar to like Iray Light Manager Pro fully integrated into DS 5.  In the meantime, though, asking a vendor not to include something that they feel is the best way to acheive something is kind of like asking them to not include textures on their sets or figures.  Yes, the odds are pretty good that I'm going to alter or completely replace at least some of them with something else, but sometimes you just want the convenience of plug and play.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 30,435

    ...I agree. I'm more with the camp of having a simpler way to turn them on or off, or have the lights as a separate load function (especially for those who use still 3DL).

  • DivamakeupDivamakeup Posts: 8,714

    As a newbie I appreciate when PAs include lights in their scenes. However I have no idea if a "mesh light" is different from a regular light. So perhaps the issue is the mesh light part and not that it's a light? I'm a bit confused. 

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 30,435

    ...mesh lights are 3D objects that have an emissive (eg. Iray) or glow (eg. Carrara) shader applied to them.  They not only glow, but can cast light as well.

    Any item in a scene, even a figure can be turned into a light soruce .

  • DivamakeupDivamakeup Posts: 8,714
    kyoto kid said:

    ...mesh lights are 3D objects that have an emissive (eg. Iray) or glow (eg. Carrara) shader applied to them.  They not only glow, but can cast light as well.

    Any item in a scene, even a figure can be turned into a light soruce .

    Oh ok, well I LIKE those! heheh I'm not sure why people wouldn't. :D Saves me some work! lol

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 30,435

    ...well, if you use 3DL they flat won't work or if you use Reality/Lux or Octane, they have their own system for creating mesh lights.

  • Wendy_CarraraWendy_Carrara Posts: 20,621
    edited September 2016

    Shaders are harder to find and a script indeed handy but actual mesh surely the PA can group them as I said so the user can at least find and replace if desired rather than omit, I actually prefer them as a separate load so can use with Octane where I have to change their shaders anyway.

    Mostly I am using the 3Delight set too for that minus lighting.

    Post edited by Wendy_Carrara on
  • AllenArtAllenArt Posts: 4,219
    xyer0 said:

    I bought this for... for just such an emergency. Of course, it's useful whenever you go crazy with lights.

    HOW did I miss that? Holy cow, that looks useful ;). Wishlisted :).

    Laurie

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 30,435
    edited September 2016

    ...thinking the same thing.  Wishlisted (someday, someway I'll have money again).

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 8,239

    The easiest way I've found to turn them all off is to select everything in the scene, then select everything in the materials tab.

    Then change Emission Color to Black.

    Turning them back on again is a pain, however, reloading the items works, as does loading in the subset that one previously saved after tweaking it.

    An option to turn them on and off would be great; not having them seems crazy.

  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 2,309

    "But isn't that really less of a Vendor issue and more of a DAZ Studio issue in general? Really, the way Iray lights are currently handled is pretty hamfisted and my guess is that we'll see something similar to like Iray Light Manager Pro fully integrated into DS 5.........."

    This ^yes


    As someone who does not render any Finals in Daz studio I  am not directly affected by the issue raised in this particular thread.

    I would add however, that large scene management is one of the areas where DAZ studio needs major improvement.
    Yes it is great that Richard is willing to volunteer his time to "patch" this shortcoming with a script  however this is something that Daz should have already addressed the minute they started adding "Pro" to the Application title.


    Daz Studio (like poser) in many ways still seems to be designed based on the old "Single figure in an empty universe for a still portrait" mindset

    The Iray light manger referenced earlier should be purchased outright  and built in to the next version of Daz studio.

    Here is the light lister We have maxon Cinema4D
    A critical time saver.

    light manager.jpg
    1265 x 689 - 228K
  • wizwiz Posts: 870
    AllenArt said:
    xyer0 said:

    I bought this for... for just such an emergency. Of course, it's useful whenever you go crazy with lights.

    HOW did I miss that? Holy cow, that looks useful ;). Wishlisted :).

    It's on sale for the next 3 days (I think) as V3Digidime's wet skin stuff is in the PA sale. Ends up costing $9.98 if you get two other items from PA vendors or two new releases. ;)

    And it should be on sale again at the end of the PA sale on "catch up day".

  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,240
    wolf359 said:

    "But isn't that really less of a Vendor issue and more of a DAZ Studio issue in general? Really, the way Iray lights are currently handled is pretty hamfisted and my guess is that we'll see something similar to like Iray Light Manager Pro fully integrated into DS 5.........."

    This ^yes


    As someone who does not render any Finals in Daz studio I  am not directly affected by the issue raised in this particular thread.

    I would add however, that large scene management is one of the areas where DAZ studio needs major improvement.
    Yes it is great that Richard is willing to volunteer his time to "patch" this shortcoming with a script  however this is something that Daz should have already addressed the minute they started adding "Pro" to the Application title.


    Daz Studio (like poser) in many ways still seems to be designed based on the old "Single figure in an empty universe for a still portrait" mindset

    The Iray light manger referenced earlier should be purchased outright  and built in to the next version of Daz studio.

    Here is the light lister We have maxon Cinema4D
    A critical time saver.

    I'd just like to point out that Cinema4d costs $3,000. Studio does not. Unfair comparisons abound.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 13,316

    I sometimes wonder how much Daz Studio would 'cost' if one added up all the bits one considered necessary.

    Probably still way cheaper than most alternatives.

     

  • FaveralFaveral Posts: 387

    This scene is completely unretouched, straight Iray render. Light is coming from the outside through windows on the right, and from candles and fireplace (emissive materials) for the rest. No other light.

    I couldn't possibly offer a scene like this without emissive materials and expecting customers to set up 50 or so point lights.

    As for some previous comments stating that to brighten the scene, if you push the brightness of the emissive meshes, they become increasingly blurry, this is true.... But if you want to brighten the overall scene, just play with exposure in the render settings. This acts pretty much like ambiant lighting in 3dlight. The lower the value of exposure, the brighter the scene will be, without having that blurring effect on emissive meshes.

    Another thing is.... While it's possible in 3dlight or poser to "fake" a lit candle by pushing the ambiance of a mesh and setting a point light nearby, in Iray, we don't have the option to do it. Ambiance is not an option in material settings.

    script14.jpg
    1780 x 882 - 425K
  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 2,309
    edited September 2016

    "I'd just like to point out that Cinema4d costs $3,000. Studio does not. Unfair comparisons abound."

    The Iray Light Manager does not add $3000 the the cost of Daz studio
    Only about $15 USD( sale price)
    So the total cost of C4D is not relevent regarding this one feature. 

    Also FYI  the one I am using in C4D was  freebie plugin given away years ago over at CGsociety.org so it did not even add to the cost of C4D.
    ...unrelated price comparisons abound.angel

    "I sometimes wonder how much Daz Studio would 'cost' if one added up all the bits one considered necessary.
    Probably still way cheaper than most alternatives."

    I Sort of did that in another thread recently and DAZ studio is certainly the hands down winner  ,Compared to poser ,even with the non sale cost of Adding AniMate2 ,GraphMate,Keymate the decimate plugin and the Dyncreator cloth plugin and mimic live.

    Post edited by wolf359 on
  • Faveral said:

    This scene is completely unretouched, straight Iray render. Light is coming from the outside through windows on the right, and from candles and fireplace (emissive materials) for the rest. No other light.

    I couldn't possibly offer a scene like this without emissive materials and expecting customers to set up 50 or so point lights.

    As for some previous comments stating that to brighten the scene, if you push the brightness of the emissive meshes, they become increasingly blurry, this is true.... But if you want to brighten the overall scene, just play with exposure in the render settings. This acts pretty much like ambiant lighting in 3dlight. The lower the value of exposure, the brighter the scene will be, without having that blurring effect on emissive meshes.

    Another thing is.... While it's possible in 3dlight or poser to "fake" a lit candle by pushing the ambiance of a mesh and setting a point light nearby, in Iray, we don't have the option to do it. Ambiance is not an option in material settings.

    I would be heartbroken if vendors did not include this.  I am actually very grateful when the emmisives are already done. I know how to do it myself and I know how to change things if I want or need to.  But one of the reasons I buy sets and am willing to put out my hard earned money is because it comes with.  I have a very limited amount of time I can actually get into Daz Studio and make things and this kind of thing is a huge time saver for me.

  • wizwiz Posts: 870

    I sometimes wonder how much Daz Studio would 'cost' if one added up all the bits one considered necessary.

    Probably still way cheaper than most alternatives.

    Starting a list...

    • 50 Dynamic clothing control
    • 50 Look at my hair
    • 25 IRAY light manager

    $125, so far.

     

  • NyghtfallNyghtfall Posts: 495
    edited September 2016
    Faveral said:

    This scene is completely unretouched, straight Iray render. Light is coming from the outside through windows on the right, and from candles and fireplace (emissive materials) for the rest. No other light.

    I couldn't possibly offer a scene like this without emissive materials and expecting customers to set up 50 or so point lights.

    At least one exception to your thinking on that secod line started this thread.  Why not just save the scene without any lights, first, and then save a ready-to-render version, and include both versions in the same package?

    Post edited by Nyghtfall on
  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 2,309
    edited September 2016

    Starting a list...
    50 Dynamic clothing control
    50 Look at my hair
    25 IRAY light manager
    $125, so far.


    Ok I found my other list of the cost of an enhanced Daz studio for animation:


    Daz studio: -$0 USD
    Keymate (Dopesheet):-$20 USD
    Graphmate:-$20 USD
    aniMate 2 (Full version)-$60 USD
    and assuming a person insists on using Genesis 3 lets throw in Dragonstorms G2 to G3 retargeting
    script for experienced users who have invested in Graph& keymate as you will need them to fix those frames where G3 inevitably refuses to obey the Dragonstorm script:-$25 USD

    Also lets throw in the very basic, but usable ,Cloth dynamics script from" rendo" that allows us to use our own non"optitex"meshes for basic draping and works for animated characters in DS-$10 USD.

    DAZ studio has basic lipsinc for speaking characters but its 32 bit version only and no phoneme editing options so lets add Mimic live for -$50 USD

    So for $185 USD total we have basic Character animation with decent motion creation and nonlinear motion mixing,key frame editing, a spline graph with auto clamping, basic cloth dynamics and export to major industry standard formats such as MDD+.obj and FBX.
    But alas you have no actual character physics options or dynamic hair and the foot pinning Ik system in Daz studio is basicly rubbish for animation purposes
     

    ALL of the above mentioned THIRD PARTY additions can easily be made USELESS by updating your Free Daz studio Core application or even moving to the next generation figure just as the aniMate2 is not usable for genesis 3 

    Still ,consider that you do not have to model or rig anything
    and could theoreticly get started on your  animated visual story telling with the included "starter essentials" and whatever freebies you harvest from "ShareCG" and other sources.

    Also if you do own a "high end" Program like C4D,
    you can treat that $185 USD outlay as an investment in a pretty decent& versatile premade Character/creature/android  resource addon for C4D or Lightwave etc.with animated figure content imported from Daz with relative ease.

     

    Post edited by wolf359 on
  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 3,525
    Nyghtfall said:
    Faveral said:

    This scene is completely unretouched, straight Iray render. Light is coming from the outside through windows on the right, and from candles and fireplace (emissive materials) for the rest. No other light.

    I couldn't possibly offer a scene like this without emissive materials and expecting customers to set up 50 or so point lights.

    At least one exception to your thinking on that secod line started this thread.  Why not just save the scene without any lights, first, and then save a ready-to-render version, and include both versions in the same package?

    It's already been noted. Double work, double QA, same price. Generally things are done when it is financially feasible. Unfortuanately your suggestion isn't, particularly when it's easier to remove what you don't need than make customers add their own settings.

  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 2,309

    Poser for comparison:

    Poser 11: $500 USD(non sale price)
     Spline graph editor included but not updated since 1996 has no Clamping function requiring manual solutions to correct splinegraph  "over shoot"

    Keyframe pallet or "dopesheet" included but again not updated since 1996 and very poorly designed for access to mutiple animation channels

    Animation "layering" system very primitive for adding motion on top of existing motion
    but not useful for true nonlinear motion clip creation and reordering.

    Includes a rigid body bullet physics engine for destruction& object collapse types of animation.

    Includes a soft body Simulation solver for "jiggly part" animations

    Includes a Cloth dynamic engine with Constraints for pinning parts of clothing and can Do hybrid Dynamic/conformed clothing items.
     

    Includes Dynamic hair but IMHO not very realistic when animated.
    Animated figures can be exported to FBX but no viable option for dynamic cloth and hair exportnot sure if Bullet or soft body simulation can be baked for export 
    to other programs.( citation needed)

    Includes "talk designer" lipsinc program for speaking poser native Characters

    There was an optional Ragdoll physic plugin for poser 
    ( p6-p2012 era) it is quite good and I still use it for my work today- $50 USD.

    Advantage; ALL of the above features of poser(excluding the ragdoll physics plugin )
    will never become nonfunctional by updating poser, as they are part of the poser core application.
    Consider that you do not have to model or rig anything
    and could theoreticly get started on your  animated visual story telling with the included poser content and whatever freebies you harvest from "ShareCG" and other sources. 

  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,240
    wolf359 said:

    "I'd just like to point out that Cinema4d costs $3,000. Studio does not. Unfair comparisons abound."

    The Iray Light Manager does not add $3000 the the cost of Daz studio
    Only about $15 USD( sale price)
    So the total cost of C4D is not relevent regarding this one feature. 

    Also FYI  the one I am using in C4D was  freebie plugin given away years ago over at CGsociety.org so it did not even add to the cost of C4D.
    ...unrelated price comparisons abound.angel

    "I sometimes wonder how much Daz Studio would 'cost' if one added up all the bits one considered necessary.
    Probably still way cheaper than most alternatives."

    I Sort of did that in another thread recently and DAZ studio is certainly the hands down winner  ,Compared to poser ,even with the non sale cost of Adding AniMate2 ,GraphMate,Keymate the decimate plugin and the Dyncreator cloth plugin and mimic live.

    Hardly.

    When one is comparing the features of a quite costly application with the features of an, essentially, free application that was always designed to be supported by plugins, one has to to accept that the comparison is going to be skewed or one is simply being disingenous.

  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 2,309
    edited September 2016

    "When one is comparing the features of a quite costly application with the features of an, essentially, free application that was always designed to be supported by plugins, one has to to accept that the comparison is going to be skewed or one is simply being disingenous"

    Respectfully disagree
    By the above is logic any discussion about the cost and value  of
    Autodesk Maya,Max or C4D & Lightwave is "skewed" or Disingenuos"
    because many of the high end features of those apps exist in the Free Blender 2.7x

    ...Zero sum thinking abound cool

    Post edited by wolf359 on
  • FixmypcmikeFixmypcmike Posts: 17,301
    Nyghtfall said:
    Faveral said:

    This scene is completely unretouched, straight Iray render. Light is coming from the outside through windows on the right, and from candles and fireplace (emissive materials) for the rest. No other light.

    I couldn't possibly offer a scene like this without emissive materials and expecting customers to set up 50 or so point lights.

    At least one exception to your thinking on that secod line started this thread.  Why not just save the scene without any lights, first, and then save a ready-to-render version, and include both versions in the same package?

    Because if there's any rework done along the way it has to be done to both versions.

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