SubService Stream Daz content for $29.99 a Month
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Keep in mind that the PA's are also customers. But I can tell you what my issue (as a customer) is with subscription services--they can disappear. Without a moment's notice, the company offering the subscription service closes it's doors (or decides to shutter the sub service). All the content you've been using for YEARS goes poof, and you have literally nothing to use for your art anymore. Is it likely? Meh... it's happened to me 3 times now (not with 3D services), so yes, I'm pretty against sub services, particularly when it comes to content for software. It was with great reluctance that I only recently upgraded from CS 5 to Photoshop CC for just this reason (and I kept my 5 installed), but there were tools that I needed that just weren't available. The only sub service I've ever seen that I actually like is the one Substance Painter has.
It not just philosophical reasons or "fear" I would imagine.
Its more practical.
For a business ,who needs to stay current , the subscription model actually makes good business sense
In my prior 20 year carreer as Graphic Designer for print in the Greater Washington DC area ,I remember the problem of working for some smaller shops who tried to avoid the upgrade costs of vital page layout programs Like Quark Xpress only to be forced to do so by counter parties who submitted design files in the latest versions that you had to be able to open and edit on your end to print them.
A subscription would have been perferable in those days as we would pay the monthly or annual fee to Adobe or Quark inc. and get the latest version as soon as every one else did.
Lets be honest... really.. how many users here have an actual $$business$$ driven need to have the latest shoes & hair for the G3 female???and how much of that "need" is purely emotional and based on some irrational fear of being left behind the other "hobbyists"??.
Just for perspective, I am also an Amateur Radio operator, and I can entirely relate to how expensive it can be; 3D art is cheap by comparison if the truth must be told.
The fear I was talking about was about DRM. And yes, I understand that our prices are very low for the industry and that it takes a lot of work to make an individual product. However, I'm close to being priced out of a hobby that I've been doing for 17 years and I sit here unable to make what I want because it would cost me $100 in textures and clothing to make a single picture that I would make no money from. PAs do not understand this, they didn't when I was one and they still do not now. I think ideas like this need to be floated and talked about if we are going to grow as a community and bring in more potential new customers and PAs.
In order to allow any type of subscription, many features of DS would have to be removed. An especially big one would be OBJ export. Also the Bridges to Hexagon, Bryce, and zBrush would have to go. Anything that exposes the mesh to copying would have to be removed to keep the item from being copied. Then you'd need to consider textures. The images there are copyrighted as well. You'd likely lose the ability to modify the default textures.
It's not that it can't be done, but after all of the limitations are introduced, is it still worth the price that would need to be charged?
Kendall
Have you considered making your own content? I'm not trying to be rude, you have clear ideas about what you want and need.... you should start generating your own textures and outfits. You can start with hexagon and blender... you are already using photoshop. You can do A LOT with that.
At least you're not shooting the idea down immediately, so thank you for that. For me, it would still be worth it, but perhaps not for many more. I also would not want DAZ to change into a subscription-only plan, I would want it to be an additional option. If I want to export the files or edit the textures, I would buy the product as always. For making images where I need something once, I would want a subscription.
And don't a lot of the things you mention make it easier for PAs to make content than what it used to be? I seriously doubt they would want to go backwards just to possibly gain more customers.
I totally get it. When I first started, I couldn't afford to buy most of the stuff that was being released. So know what I did? I became a vendor to feed my hobby. And then, somehow, serendipitously... it turned into a job. There are ways around it, if one is truly serious about keeping a hobby they love. The solution isn't really to force vendors to making it so they can't make a living anymore.... because then who will make all this lovely content?
But there is still stuff priced low... its not all out of reach. There is a fair amount of it, actually, and things like platinum club make it even more affordable for those on a tighter budget.
Also, let me ask you this. How much content have you purchased in the past that you have never used? Lets be honest here.... if I couldnt afford another thing, evar... I have enuff content to still make images a thousand times over. Sure, its stuff I may have used before... or maybe not (you'd be hard pressed to find a person who hasnt bought something they never used... its a disease of the 3D artist lol) but its still there, nevertheless, to fulfill the urge to make an image. With a little creativity and kitbashing, you could even mix it with other things. Re-texturing it, could make it like new, even.
PA's understand more than you realize... but we also understand this is a job... this is how we pay our bills, and support our families. If we're being too generous to you, we are starving our children. Its just how it is, we are naturally at odds.
Look at it from the content creaters perspective.( Forgive my bluntness)
Prolific PA's or those who make really high value products that enhance the base figures far beyond their original functionality
( Zevo& DraagonStorm for example)
well..such producers would have little incentive to invest in the R&D to produce such innovations as they would be not only be relegated to the same status as the mediocre "fly by nighters", but actually be put in the extraordinary&inexplicable position of subsidizing them for the sake of everyone being "equally compensated"
there would be a mass over night exodus of content creators were Daz to be so foolhardy as to implement such a model .
I've been thinking of ways to allow for "subscription" type things for DS for some time. It is doable. But, and this is a BIG but, a lot of the features than folks have come to rely on to make their scenes simply aren't practical in a subscription model. The giant question is whether the severely cut-down DS for subscription would bring in enough revenue to pay for the inevitable support. Then there will be the forever complaints about "why can't we have such-and-such feature in the subscription"?
Would the "bad blood" from those folks who were made unhappy poison the well for the full version? As others have said, this is a fairly small market with respect to other subscriptions, and would require a fairly substantial monthly fee. At what point does the payout for the subscription cost more than purchasing the content from the store for perpetual use?
Kendall
Including FBX which would put a draconian "walled garden" around Daz studio at the very time when Daz seems to be desperately trying to achieve the Exact opposite.
Yes, and I have always had trouble grasping how to model. It just doesn't come naturally for me and I don't enjoy it either.
I do understand this and for many years as you probably know, I was a strong supporter of PAs and always tried to make suggestions that I thought would help them - not that many of you ever listened. I've also seen things over the years that have made me less sympathetic towards PAs and their views. I suggested this idea earlier because I wanted to hear what DAZ thought of it, not what the PAs thought. DAZ doesn't seem interested in it either, so you don't have to worry.
PAs often brush off customer opinions because they have the sales numbers or they have the research on their side. That's fair enough, but I don't believe that you face the same artistic challenges that customers do and can't really put yourselves in their shoes.
What about an optional short-term use fee? Like to 'rent' a product for 14 days for a PC+ like price? I'm trying to find ways to avoid stifling artistic creativity, and something like that is probably doable (through DRM) and would at least allow artists to make what they want without struggling over whether to buy something or not - and there are surely many of us who would rather pass altogether on a $15 item if we think we might only use it in one image.
Well of course they prolly aren't. Not only would it be painful to implement (rehauling DS to be the host thereof and have certain functionality) it would cost money to do so using their dev resources, and in the end... would they make the money? Probably not. Couple that with the fact its not viable to PA's and they'd have them walking out en masse... and yeah, could totally see why they would be less than enthusiastic lol But its not like they haven't given you some form of a way to save money and still have a perpetual license, like with pc.
And yeah... we do have sales data. You could tell me that male content will do well if I just make it... and I have. I have the sales data to tell me there is a very small portion of you buying it vs female content. Ergo, I make female content, because it pays my bills. You could also tell me holey clothing, sexy wear and high heeled boots are bad, and I should make the exact opposite... but I can see in the store that stuff sells the best (my own data, not withstanding). We don't turn our nose up at everything you suggest. But you can't argue with data... nor with realtime proof. We're going to push what makes us money at the end of the day... a point which we PA's have tirelessly expressed. To ultimately be ignored and accused of not listening lol
And sadly, you guys are trying to take something non-tangible (like a movie, which can be streamed and removed thereafter) and turn it into 3D content. The biggest fail about that, is there is no way to proverbially "remove" that content from subber's hardrives when all is said and done. Assuming one could even make that work, it would undoubtedly require DRM... which so many have, in some cases with much venom, stated they are dead against.
How do I not face the same artistic challenges as a customer?
I was a customer before I was a PA. I produce artwork for myself. I use other people's products. I strive to improve, I enjoy post working my fun images. I'm always considering my customers when starting a new product... what would they like, what have I not done, what have they expressed interest in. I try not to stick to one style and vary my approach. I do tutorials.
I think I AM doing the same thing as any other customer does. AND I know that I surround myself with similar thinking PAs. They really work hard to make customers happy.
How do I not face the same artistic challenges as a customer?
I was a customer before I was a PA. I produce artwork for myself. I use other people's products. I strive to improve, I enjoy post working my fun images. I'm always considering my customers when starting a new product... what would they like, what have I not done, what have they expressed interest in. I try not to stick to one style and vary my approach. I do tutorials.
I think I AM doing the same thing as any other customer does. AND I know that I surround myself with similar thinking PAs. They really work hard to make customers happy. I also don't think we are as quick to brush things off as you may initially think. We are often tied to the rules of this business... they are not always super flexible.
Yes, and I wouldn't argue with that. I had hoped that DAZ might bring on more PAs that would consider making some of the things we don't currently have, but they've likely seen the same trend that you know well and will make the same things we've come to expect. That was probably wishful thinking.
Well I can't speak for you, but I find it highly doubtful that many PAs have to worry about whether they can justify buying an item for an image or two. I knew PAs who NEVER made images aside from promotional pictures and many others who bought products in order to better show off their own. I don't believe those merchants can understand the thinking of many customers.
Well, you know... that trend is one which customers set forth. The best way to get ppl to make diff stuff, is to buy it up when they do. Sadly, the vocal minority who wants it, isn't enuff to finance that trend to change. So yeah, moar ppl climb on the NVIATWAS train and ride it to margaritaville (IDK why there, seems as good a place as any)
On the second part, its true for me that I don't pointedly render these days... its mostly promotionally. But thats because this is my job, so instead of sitting here rendering and having fun, Im hauling butt and making content. When it becomes a job, it changes... it becomes full of responsibility and yes, even loathing at times. It doesn't mean I dont understand or comprehend your position... every vendor started out making pretty pictures. And there is a large majority who were in the same boat of "how can I afford this hobby, without going broke" Its just like I said... we are at odds. We will probably always be at odds, there, sadly.
No, I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see how "renting content" is in anyway cost effective for the customer. I'll rent you my entire catalog for 30 days for $20. Is that $20 before or after Daz takes their cut? If Daz is taking their cut then I'm charging $40. Now if you also have to rent the props, people, hair and clothing to use with my shaders and lights then you have paid quite a bit more than the outright cost of items in the first place.
Or you want to rent 1 item for $5 for 14 days? Again, is that before or after Daz takes their cut? I can sell one item and make more than $5 and certainly more than 2.50, so there is absolutely no incentive to me as a vendor. What if you don't get the render finished in the alloted time and have to pay another rental fee? The cost of your render just doubled.
I'm probably being very dense and missing something obvious, because I'm just not seeing the gain for the customer here.
I take issue at this last statement. The fact is ALL PAs started out as customers, we just didn't just start selling items or get accepted to sell at DAZ right off. I started off back in 2007 downloading DAZ Studio when I saw an article about Michael 4. My first renders were just badly posed M4s with a blank background and default lighting. But I took the time to learn and buy products, not to sell products, but to render pictures, much to the chagrin of a lot of my friends. I didn't start selling until a person that owned another Poser store prodded me to make some items after seeing some of the renders I make. I do make renders, but yeah, most aren't used for promos as they would give the art department a heart attack.
I continue to buy content now, not just for promos but for my own use. And I do weigh whether I want to buy an item as I have finite funds to go for bills, living expenses and prepaying trip expenses for my job (which can run several hundred dollars and take a month to get reimbursed back.. so I have to count my pennies in the meantime) I've also cut down on what I buy because I probably wouldn't use them in renders (since most of my promos involve just a 3 point light set and a background).
The fact is, we DO understand because we are customers, but we also need to pay bills so some things we can't do because at the end of the day it's not going to pay for expenses. Sometimes understanding does have to go both ways, and you can't ask vendors to do something that some customers seem to be unwilling to do as well.
When we purchase Daz Originals, we are not just purchasing
It is NOT the same. Netflix sub-leases its content to subscribers to for a defined period in only in accordance with the specific service agreement. The content in a 3D content store like DAZ sells content (user rights, not ownership) for perpetual use of the content by the end-user license holder as defined by the license agreement. This allows users to share and publish the content the content in bodies of work. AFIK you cannot include a clip of a netflix distribution in private art work, and certainly not in commercial or advertisement works. I believce you are only allowed to view the Netflix shows, and without the ability even to show it to a wider audience than your family residence or something like that. You cant even record movies and play it later. from what I understand. For DAZ to operate under similar principals, you would need to delete your art once you terminate the membership. The only way I could see that working if if they restricted to publishing ONLY in the DAZ gallery. I explored the concept somewhat...
Believe me, I spend every Daz Midnight drooling over the new releases. Wondering how much I can justify spending on background environments which I love. I get super tired of skankwear and like to change things up every now and again. My runtime is FILLED with products that are not practical for Promo Images but I love them anyways. I love fantasy wear and I've got a ton of it. I have tons and tons of room, outdoor scenes, fantasty environments, studio environments... why? because I love it all. So, you are really off base when you say that PAs don't get it. We do. And my little nightly midnight club looks at everything.... every night. Why? because we ARE customers too.
That's assuming that the customer will buy the item. I'll give you a real-world example.
I saw the product "Halfway Up the Mountain" and thought of an image I might like to try making using it. I can't pay $20 for it, so that's a sale FirstBastion will not get. It was recently on sale for 40% off, but I still wasn't sure if I could make the image I wanted, so I passed. Now if I could 'rent' it for $5 or $6, I probably would have just to see if I could use it in the picture I'm imagining. I know that it's worth more than that, and if I found it useful during the rental period, I might buy it outright. My single render might only be $2 or $3 for FirstBastion, but in this real world example, he doesn't even get that and I don't get to try his product.
The incentive for the customer, and the single goal that I would like to see made possible is for an artist to not be limited to making pictures using a small selection of items that he or she can afford.
That's fine, thank you for your honesty. My opinions are my own, although they're not likely to change on this subject.
As far as Im concerned, that statement just killed any sense of "conversation" we can have about this. Its obvious you want to feel how you feel about things, are unwilling to change that mindset, regardless whether its right or wrong... its just a waste of time now.
That is something we have to face every day as a customer and a promo producer for our products. I had to think about those exact same things when considering that product. In the end, I went for it because I can definitely see myself using it for the current set, and possibly others.
You talk about about how the prices have shifted but since you have been doing this for 17 years you should remember how a base figure was around $80. Things have gotten better. There is more detail and more work that is put into each model and character and the prices are still inexpensive. Just like anything else, you might have to save up for something.
Because the concept is a fail, and will not benefit customers, PA's or this store. That's why we are against it. If the concept benefitted both parties, then fine. But this rental idea will not work. The store and business model is not designed for it. First of all, to pay all the PA's you would need a certain guarenteed amount of people using the rental service. What about PA's that make more than others? How do you average that out? How do you keep track if individual product sales are no longer monitored? You cannot monitor these things if the structure is rental based because people will download a product just because they can. Also I don't think people would be fond of Daz automatically deleting content from their drives if membership of this service expires. Fear DRM? There will be a whole new fear of DAZ accessing your hard-drive. Cloud based? People fear that as well. Also that content will have to be 100% locked, no modification or duplicating. What about all merchant resources? How will that fit in? Will this rental service only apply to a few products? There is just way too much restructuring to happen for a suggestion that isn't really good to begin with in the first place, regarding this store and how it works..
I understand what you are getting at SS, and PA's are customers too. We don't get everything handed to us. We purchase just like everyone else. We actually are really high spending customers because our very business depends on constantly putting out new images with the latest figures. We don't have the luxury of rendering only when we feel like it for fun. If I look at a typical render of mine, for a promo, or any other reason, I will have routinely used up to 30 items in any given picture. If I am spending $5 per item used, that is a $150 picture and I better get it done in the rental time frame, which knowing my schedule, is not going to happen. I get the "try before you buy" idea. All I can say is Daz does have the 30 day refund policy. Feel free to try the item, and if it deosn't match your vision, you can return it.
The only way a subscription would ever work for Daz3d content is if Daz outright bought every item in the store.
THIS.
As well as DRMing said products even more restrictively than the DRM setup that is currently afflicting some products.
The DRM we have is offensive enough, the kind we'd have to suffer to support a subscription setup would be even worse.