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Effectively, I don't appreciate the constant "Buy this or these content items I don't want to get a decent price on content items I could use"
Yes, I will watch for sales as long as I need content items.
I am certain this thread will not alter anything.
Daz marketing might realize and think about NOT usng these types of sale promotions so often.
I will refrain from posting further on this thread.
Thank you to all the respondents for sharing.
.
I'm not sure the OP has a firm understanding of how much time goes into the models sold here.
I'm going to do some maths based on certain assumptions. Anyone in the know, please feel free to update these calculations with correct figures.
---
Let's say it takes a minimum of two weeks of full time work to make a detailed urban environment (I reckon it would take waaaaaay longer, myself, but for the sake of this calculation, let's say two weeks). A graphic designer working at an established medium-level salaried job would earn around $50k a year (again, an assumption just for the sake of the calculation).
So, that's $2k that the vendor needs to earn in order to break even. (And in the US, I understand you'd need to also factor in retirement savings, and health insurance and other workplace benefits, etc). So let's say the actual break even point is $2500.
If you price an item at $24.95, and then subtract DAZ's cut (I'm assuming 50%, but honestly have no idea what the DAZ cut is), you'd need to sell 200 units at full price to break even. If you assume that most of the sales occur in the first two weeks, when the item is discounted between 30-50%, that number jumps to 300-400 units. If that target isn't hit in that period, I imagine you'd be relying on future sales to incentivise purchase, and those sales would net you only about 15% of the full value of the item (figuring a 70% discount and a 50% DAZ cut from that).
I don't know how realistic those numbers are, but I know I'd be holding my breath every time I released a new product, hoping it came off okay. Especially if I'm not one of the highest-regarded most-established PAs.
And that's without factoring in the inherent risks of operating in a freelance context or the inconvenience of delayed paydays.
---
Now I'm not saying that content creators are necessarily entitled to earn the equivalence of a salary, but that would be the ideal, if we want to keep them making new content for us.
I'm afraid most of that is depressingly realistic.
OP, if you want to develop your skill set and understanding, I suggest going to the Freebie section and partake in the freebie contests :) It's an *excellent* way to develop your hobby without spending an arm and a leg.
I also second the other posters who suggested learning Blender and creating your own content. It's a great way to save money and a way to contribute to the wider community.
I literally cracked up at that myself. It normally takes me a minimum of two weeks to finish a SMALL product like the Genesis clones I just released (from start to QA, with the renders done). I'm no Stonemason, but I am fully supported by this job. I can't imagine what it would take to do something as incredibly detailed and elaborate as an entire huge set. If anyone reading this thread can make a full Daz-friendly set in two days, screw indie videos, you should be selling in this market yesterday. ;)
The thing to remember is that Daz is not out to offer a chance to get a discount on somehting else by buying x, y and/or z that you don't want, but to offer something you may want. If you don't, that doesn't mean the sale is bad, it just means it wasn't something you could use. In real life, there are stores that put things on sale all the time. Sometimes they are things you want, sometimes they are things you might not have considered, but with the discount, it was more appealing. I've seen offers for things I wanted but in colors I couldn't abide and so said no, but my friend bought it because it was their favorite color. It's all about what you want or don't. Personally, I see no reason to stop such sales; I've gotten some nice things for less because of it.
I ate a steak dinner just last month. But only because it was a cheap cut and had reached its sell by and was in the reduced cabinet (only way I can afford to buy groceries), and I did have to make two meals from it . . .
@ShaneWSmith I'd love to be able to turn out a set in 2 weeks. Heck, I'd love to be able to do it in 4 or 5. And that's before doing the promos! (Not all of us can afford uber twin-TitanX render rigs! My 4 year old i5 iMac can easily take 3 days to render out a promo quality Iray image of a complex set (or 10 minutes for the same image in 3DL or Carrara!), and if you need 6 or 7 of them, well that's just doubled the development time. Oh and then you spot an error and have to start again . . .) But otherwise, you seem to have a fair grasp on the economics.
No, it's definitely not a quick ticket to being rich. If it was, everyone would be doing it.
People often ask in threads what's required to create content, and there are many talents you need, like imagination, technical ability, etc. But I've always said that the most important of all is stamina. No single product will ever make anyone rich. You'll only begin to make money selling content once you have a large back-catalog. And to achieve that, you need to keep on thinking of new products to make (one of the more difficult aspects of this job), and actually making them. So look forward to a minimum of several years of work before you even smell a steak.
mac
Having been paid for 3D projects in the past, having built and textured models and knowing how long doing anthing halfway decent -- even for limited quality for limited usage -- I think, and have always thought, that Poser and DAZ content has always been very underpriced. We have been, and still are very lucky to be able to get this stuff as cheaply as we can (especially when on sale).
Everyone has their own personal budgets and needs; not everyone has work that will pay for the models, but that doesn't make the price "fair" or "too expensive".
The content in the store costs "$xx.xx". Each of us has to decide if this item, at this price, is something we're willing to pay; it may be that the cost is too high for what we want, need or can afford, but that doesn't mean the price is wrong. It just means that it's value to us is less than the current price.
I view every item in the store based on my wants, needs or budget at the time. If it's something I really want or need, it takes about two seconds to calculate how long it would take me to build it myself. So far, I don't remember a single item I've bought that I could have made that wouldn't have "cost" me more to build myself, even if I was only being paid minimum wage for time.
If you can throw some 3D boxes and planes together with some quickie textures in a day or two that would be good enough to suit your needs, great, I've done similiar things for background items that I couldn't find elsewhere, but consider this: assuming you spent a day (8 hours) doing that, at minimum wage you've probably invested about $60 worth of your time (minimum wages vary, I'm being conservative) for your product. Now take the item and imagine what you'd be able to charge for it in a 3D store. Probably not much... and as low as you'd try and sell it, I doubt you'd buy it when you looked at the quality and compared it to someone like Stonemason's. Conversely, you could have spent the same time working at McDonald's, made enough to buy two of Stonemason's products (or four or five if you wait for the right sale ) and still had enough for a Big Mac. ;-)
It's up to you to decide if a "day or two" of your time is worth $30... I know mine is. ;-)
-- Walt Sterdan
It is my experience that you will save either time OR money. Not both. A site like Daz has lots of content rigged, categorized and most of it seems to have been tested and is ready to go. And you pay more for it. If you go to ShareCG or other sites, you will spend your time hunting for what you want (and maybe even then, not find it).
As for Daz's business model -- it's obvious that Daz Studio was created to support the consumption of the content. Content comes first here, and software second.
The one point on which I wholeheartedly agree is that some of the really old content is very expensive. I would like to see a BIG sale (and I mean 80% off) on all the Version 3 (and older) content. Perhaps as part of March Madness? Hint, hint, hint.
For waht it is worth. I spent a number of years working with Autocad as a member of a hard pressed architecural desgin team.
We had to crank out a lot of work, fast. All my work was architectural, mostly commercial buildings. ---
Also we did interiors and exteriors in that time, because they had to work together.
We also had to dimension as we designed. We did top views and elevations as well. .
This was before the days of render farms.
No I couldn't produce the Urban Sprawl full content pack, but the buildings for sure in a couple deys.
It is pretty amazing what you can do when you work with an applicaiton every day for several years.
I do indie video as a hobby, afterall you have to call it a hobby when you work for free.
I do have a copy of Autocad 2012 on one of my computers, which I rarely use.
Don't kid yourself to thinking such detail cannot be done,
Cad programs have extraordinary tools to crank out work, macros, templates, etc.
Working on video and game animation projects takes a lot of time, producing scripts, animations, lighting, etc.
I appreciate high quality work, as Stonemason and others so I want to make it clear - I cannot do my work without them, because I choose not to do everything myself..
No question there. But having a mesh generated is only part of the process when you create a DS or Poser product (some even say it's the easy part). Once you have the mesh you need create all the materials (I suppose it's already UV-mapped there, if not that will be an additionnal step, and doing this right can be pretty time consuming), rig it if it's supposed to be a figure, save the various parts in DS / Poser format, create corresponding thumbnails, package ypu product, get it beta-tested (and fix it if needed), prepare the readme and content of product page, create all the promo images, then go through the QA process (which might require more fixes and/or changes, or creation of new product images), and I probably forget a few steps there.
The problem is of couse that the $42.95 is not the real price, it's the "manufacturer's suggested retail price". Nobody pays it that doesn't need a product for an emergency project. Essentially 30% off is the real price since anybody with a little patience can pick it up for that or less. If a PA wants to see $20-$25 for an item they have to price it at $43.
Added to the problem is since this is all digital content with no incrimental price per unit sale, it really comes down to how much in aggregate does the PA want to see for a product over its sales life. To use Stonemason as an example, he would probably be more interested in total sales for a project he spent a month on than much he sells each one for, ie, if you spend 160 hours (one month) developing a product, you need to see $3,200 as your sales commission from it over the life of a month if you price your time at $20 per hour. (all numbers are for illustration only, I have no idea what Stonemason values his time at, or how many hours it takes to do the bigger projects)
Whether you get that number from 100 sales at $32, or 200 sales at $16 makes no difference to you, as long as those sales come in a month's time.
Whether you are willing or capable of spending that amount of money for the art is another matter, but I wouldn't get stuck on the $43 price tag. It's based on the artists expectations on spending the time making it, not your utilization of it. If prices get out of line in general, it decreases the number of sales, and the one thing I am sure DAZ is gearred for is to get the maximum of (price x number of sales) where price is the variable they control.
If a Stonemason (or anybody else's item) sells for $20 in real price, it's because that is pretty much the place where price x sales is maximized.
but If some of us are in urge of a building or a set of buildings and no money, use Sketchup, download some houses, even cars, export to Keyshot for obj cleaning and import to daztudio, money invested on assets...$ 0.00
Hello. I read this whole thread and everybody's reply. And I think everybody has missed the problem entirely. What your supplier charges you is only the left half of the balance sheet. Can it be that the OP isn't charging enough for his own work?
Imagine it this way: You're paying for raw materials. And not getting paid for your work, at least not in this gig. The result is a cash burn and no steaks for a long time. Donations are great, but if you can't afford to clothe and feed yourself, or at least buy a fairly strong rendering machine, then you really can't afford this donation.
But you've signed on to it, so I say fulfil your commitment in this gig. Do it quickly so you can get back to making money. Ask for a pay raise for the next project. If they say "no" or claim that they're paupers and need to continue to rely on your altruistic nature, then maybe it's time to move on to a paying gig. The fastest way to become devalued in any marketplace is to give all of your work away for free, so don't do that.
Let's put it this way, prices won't change. We, the PAs set the price, which in my opinion is way too low. For the amount of work involved to create an item, we break even. We are selling a licence to use the product in your work to make money and in the end we still don't get credit. $24.95 for a sale and I see items in comercials, movies, and book covers. Do we get a cut or any credit? No. So, even if I sell an item for $50.00, make a hundred sales (
), take my brokrage fees out, a month or work and testing, that's $2500 for the month (minus a third for small business taxes). So, if you think our work is not worth the price we set, oh well.
Modeling
Texturing
UV mapping
Rigging
Packing
Testing
I don't think the prices are too high at all. They are simply what the market will sustain. I have bought a lot of 3D content since I discovered DAZ three months ago. More than I should, but the level of skill astounds me. I can't believe I can get such beautiful artwork to use as I wish, for such low prices. Stonemason's work is out of this world. And I want to kiss whoever made Gianni 7. He looks like he fell from heaven. Every day there is more beautiful content being created and the prices are generally very good. We'll all go broke buying it all, but what a feast for the eyes.
The sad fact is, artists are never compensated enough for their art, no matter what form it takes. And most of us are here for the art in one form or another- whether you're a 3D artist, a PA, a video producer, or in my case, a writer who wants to create her own promo and book cover images. I will probably never recover the time and energy I put into my books. They are passion projects. I come from a family of writers and have seen this struggle over and over again. It's the same for musicians and other kinds of artists. No one is really compensated at the level they should be, unless you're in the top 1 or 2% of your field. The PAs here probably have a fortune invested in both training and resources to hone their skills and produce and sell the things they do.
Good luck on your videos- I'm sure they are your passion projects too. Find ways to work around and with the budget you have. Being creative, we want it all and right now, but since we're creative, we can find workarounds just as easily. Best wishes!
You left out creative development and the fact that at any step revisions may need to be made that will mean hours and hours of work already done are now just bits on a hard drive, instead of an actual product. Content creation is a job...
Reminds me of people complaining about RPG book prices, while not grasping that their memories of how cheap things were when they were 12 ignores inflation and the fact they got money from parents.
Also that a lot of writing hasn't had a pay increase in a century, not adjusted for inflation. Yes, you read that right. 100 years ago people would make 2-5 cents a word for stuff like Astounding Science Fiction while nowadays a starting fiction writer can make 2-5 cents a word.
Adjusting for inflation, that's a huge drop in pay.
But people still complain.
(Some of why I don't work on RPGs any more)
And if you go the route of self publishing an e-book you need to sell 4000 or more to make that 2 cents per word, for a 100,000 word story...(because half is usually the best you can do). Yes, you can make more off of each individual sale by selling it yourself, too...but the chances of making enough sales that way are slim.
If J. K. Rowlings made half of each book sold, she'd have more money than Bill Gates...
Amen to that! It's actually better now with self publishing, than it was trying to sell through the publishing houses 20 or 30 years ago. I watched my mother struggle with her (very beautiful) books since I was young. She got paid next to nothing for them, and they were very good. That's why I didn't want to be a published writer for many, many years. I went into other things, but the urge to write called me back. What's going on now with ebooks is better these days, but not great. At least we have more creative freedom and the potential to keep more of the profits. It's a better situation than it's been for a long time.
You keep calling what you do work, but you keep saying that you make no money from it--which means it's a hobby (like most of us here who make no money from using the store products). I think like most of us you just need to live with the limitations of your budget and make do as you can. Hunt for freebies and learn to use free modeling software to help with specific special needs you may have (and no offense, but I doubt you could come up with something even close to Urban Spawl in a day or two). But if you can--then go for it and you won't need to buy so many products from the store.
Two Points:
One: Only some of us make money (and not even that much – I only do work for always-broke indie publishers). Most of the users here are hobbyists who never make a dime off of what they do.
Two: Getting credit is a VERY valid point. I would really like it to be easier to generate a report from a scene that generates the list of products included (or the file name, if the former is unknown) and the names of the resource creators. This would make it very easy for me to include that info in my copyrights and acknowledgements. Right now, I just include a blanket thanks and copyright notice for Daz3D, Renderosity and ShareCG.
I like the second idea a lot – I’m going over to propose it in the Suggested Features list.
Mike
And people are forgetting how... well, primative those old RPGs are. I released my book in b&w so we could keep the cost at $20 for its initial release in 2005. We later had to go up to $25 because we were making less than a buck a book when we sold to distributors. We had some pushback on the b&w because most new books were in color, but I think we got away with it because it's an historical Western game, so the b&w illustrations came off as old-school and were suitable to the material.
That was also 11 years ago! These days, a new game in b&w is really not going to sell, except for small indie books with low price tags.
I just wanna say... I like pudding.
Chocolate, and in those seven pound Costco cans...
Regardless...
Although I might complain about the way the stupid sales work, the encryption debacle, the blinding white background that is searing my eyeballs as I type, and assorted annoyances that I feel could be addressed in a more addressed fashion... But um... Price wise, if I were not more obsessed with making my own content and instead purchased content like a normal person would, then I'd have to say the prices here in general are pretty decent... especially if you wait for a sale or get the Platinum Club plus (or whatever it was renamed to) (which by the way, the plus only makes sense if you have a lower level, or an Aluminum Club or something beneath the "plus" club, but quite frankly they can name it the Happy Funtime Giggles Club for all I care)... Where was I? Yeah, PC plus, it makes a lot more sense if you have to buy stuff often... But, I'm sorry I have to defend the value of the majority of the content sold here... Especially Stonemason's work... I've got like two items from him, I can't afford to buy the higher priced stuff (just to have), but I know what goes into making one of his products, and I'd never complain about the price, and if I really needed it I'd buy it, because I know what goes into developing it.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and it's fine if you think the value to price ratio is way off, but realistically then, what would you charge if you made the same product? Would your price reflect the speed by which the project was completed and/or the technical expertise employed in the creation of the product and/or would it be geared to be affordable to hobbyists or those on a budget? How many would you sell? How many hours were put into the project and what do you see as a fair price to pay yourself based on the amount of effort, skill and time to the number of sales you will ultimately see in a reasonable amount of time so as the income made will still be relevant ($1000 over ten years is almost irrelevant, as opposed to $1000 over six months). Should a vendor price their creations based on perceived value or as fair a price that will allow them to continue to pursue this work? What about when items are on sale? If you are selling an item that you normally receive $10 from each regular purchase, how would you feel about a sale where you might sell more but only get $2 or $3 for each? Every model/product has some expected sales number... Say one has an item that can expect 500 to be purchased over it's relevant lifespan, and $10 is a reasonable price to ask for it, but over the lifespan it will go on sale many times and many times that item will only bring in $3 per unit... The ultimate number of 500 total sales projected would still remain, but now the total income would be less. Is it still worth it to make, or should the base price be more to offset the sale price? Should people who can not model rapidly and cheaply bother to sell products even if they make a quality product? If that is so, then we are left with only vendor who can rapidly turn out quality products with no concern for income.
Like I said, you are entitled to your opinion, but I just thought you might want to consider those factors too... Would I like to see things at super low prices so I could buy everthing I fancy? Yeah... Would I still want that if someone were not seeing a fair income? No, not really... Have I seen models for sale that I thought were not well designed, constructed and textured and therefor not a good value? Yeah, not many here, but then again I wouldn't complain, because if it's not a good model, why would I want it?
A while back I made a freebie model of a hovercar, for the promo I wanted to have the model parked atop some landing pad with a semi-futuristic city in the background... Since that set was for a promo for a freebie, it made no sense to buy a model for something I was giving away... Even though there were and are many fine models I could have used, I didn't have the money... So I made my own. Sometimes you also have to weigh your resources against your skills and the ultimate amount of effort you wish to expend in order to achieve your vision.
Well, it pudding time... Cheers.
If the prices reflected the amount of work involved and the quality you'd probably see the price of some items increase with several 100 percent while others would decrease at a similar rate. That's one of the things that are unique to the software/content world, and one I don't find reasonable.
If you can make a city in a couple days you should be selling content. Then you'd have a ton of money and this entire arguement would be moot.
http://www.turbosquid.com/Search/Index.cfm?keyword=city
To get a real sense of how much of a price discount DAZ offers compared to others, take a gander at the numerous pro-level 3D sites out there. Those prices are absolutely jaw-dropping.
I would guess about 1/3 of the stuff I buy, I buy at full price, because I REALLY want it and it hasn't been on sale the 3+ months it's been in my wishlist.
For what it's worth.
buying is not a thing, spent 250 dollars in content is nothing when you've invested in a $ 6,500 Computer that can do 8,000 iterations in less than 2 minutes.
yep, it's an expensive hobby BUT there are the traditional methods, buy pencils, acuarels, pastel colors and an artist notebook.
they´re only tools.
And even with those jaw dropping prices, much of it is NOT rigged!