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You've been heard. Response re: 4.9 and Encryption

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  • frogimusfrogimus Posts: 200

    I remember when I started with Daz, there was a huge bundle of free content. I didn't consider pirating cause i had plenty of stuff to play with until I was hooked. Then I started buying content to supplement what I had. Now, the bundled content is enough stuff for the "tutorial" scene. A lot of people will show loyalty to a company that shows generosity.

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715
    Petercat said:
    TesseractSpace said:
     

    I don't think DRM is the best or most appropriate solution, but given how another site flubbed setting up a 'first time purchase' verification, it's easy to see why DAZ might be worried about putting in anything that could be seen as making purchasing more difficult.

    While such methods likewise affect both legit and fraudulent purchasers, if something goes wrong in the process it should be set up so that you're not charged unless the item is going to be delivered. As annoying as it might be to not be able to buy something until verified, it pales in comparison to the ire one feels when something you've bought and downloaded is unusable due to a glitch or unexpected situation in the DRM.

    Has anyone complained about credit card verification on the other site?

    Other than them not telling the customer in advance that their purchase was going to be delayed?

    I got notified when I first used Rendo; I was fine with it, because it meant if the card had been mine, but someone else using it, and I didn't know. It would make no difference to me as the defrauded card user, but fraud does put my costs up as goods cost more; ergo I can put up with that.

    DRM, just keeps making me pay even after I've paid the first time; be it loss of convenience, loss of functionality or loss of use of something I paid for.

  • wgdjohnwgdjohn Posts: 2,634
    tl155180 said:

    I am not very technically gifted at all, so this idea might well be riddled with problems but...

    Wouldn't it be possible to implant every copy of every product sold with a hidden customer code/identifier that traces that copy back to its original purchaser? Then, if that copy was later discovered being distributed around the net on warez sites, it could be traced back to the person who originally started distributing it and they could be investigated/prosecuted? Feels like that would potentially pick up a lot of the casual pirates without inconveniencing anyone.

    Just spit-balling here...

    *Bracing self for the inevitable ridicule laugh*

    I had much the same thought upon reading DAZ_Steve's other encryption thread.

    As you stated it would not work very well. The hackers would be able to remove that line. What would be required is if that line were removed or tampered with it would disable that content from working. This would require another line in the program that checks for that line... and yet another to check that one. I additionally think that the better hackers will be able to get by any scheme... encryption included. Just my opinion.

  • AprilYSHAprilYSH Posts: 1,522
    argel1200 said:

    A bit off topic, but uninstalling DC downloaded content and then installing with DIM does not returnt the DC icon on the Smart Content tab, so it's harder to tell what was installed with which method. Is there a special fitler that could be used? DC is an interesting idea, but still has "managing your content" usability issues over DIM. SOunds like the "Install" tab might help on that front, once that is released.

    Edit: Looks like it is all content installed since upgrading from 4.8 to 4.9. I just installed a couple purchases via DIM and there is no special DC icon. So I take it the icon is for pre-upgrade content only? Is there a way to show jsut what was installed with DC (or DIM) on the Smart Content tab??

    Good question but may not get answered in this thread... tech questions should probably be in the DS forum, this thread is too fast moving and more a discussion/opinions thread. I'd like to know the answer too :)  If it does get answered, other people will miss it anyway - no idea what other nice tidbits I've missed in this thread already.  

    (any chance mods can split out tech questions to separate threads? heh :) )

  • Midnight_storiesMidnight_stories Posts: 4,112

    Here's a question do people who get a refunds, uninstall the products or do they leave them there, if there is no easy way to unistall, and are they committing a crime if they leave them there ?

  • frogimusfrogimus Posts: 200

    I do. It's easy with DIM.

  • wgdjohnwgdjohn Posts: 2,634
    timmins.william said:

    The problem is DRM only works for pirates who are motivated enough to buy product if it becomes a little harder to get it free, but aren't motivated enough to look harder for it.

    Agree... it is unlikely to produce much if any revenue for DAZ. Most pirates IMO either don't have nor want to spend money on anything.

  • Midnight_storiesMidnight_stories Posts: 4,112
    frogimus said:

    I do. It's easy with DIM.

    I have no idea how to do it, never had to !

  • ByrdieByrdie Posts: 1,783

    Have not needed to do a return in a long time except for the price correction sort, but I always delete the files of returned items. Because (a) it's the right thing to do and (b) if they actually worked for me, I wouldn't be wanting to return them. Anything else just doesn't make sense.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 40,038

    yeah I only ever returned one thing and bought the version I needed with the refund and replaced it

  • TaozTaoz Posts: 10,236
    edited February 2016
    Petercat said:
    Taozen said:
    Petercat said:
    Taozen said:
    a-sennov said:

    "Poison pill" is not yet provided. This thing has to be 100% reliable by it's nature but how shall I be aware of this? I cannot test it until DAZ is gone and after that - who will provide fixes if they will be needed?

    The Poison Pill is as I understand it just a program that decrypts the encrypted files, if that's correct it's a fairly simple program and there's no reason to believe it will be unreliable.

     

    There is also no reason to believe that it can't be hacked as well.

    No but that would be pointless as the Poison Pill itself will decrypt the files right away. And it won't be released unless DAZ goes out of business anyway.

    I was talking about hackers creating their own version to do what Daz's poisoned pill is supposed to do, but doing it now.

     Well that's what they'll have to do in any case, to break the encryption. Whether they'll release a public version is the question.

    Post edited by Taoz on
  • frogimusfrogimus Posts: 200
    Midnight_stories said:
    frogimus said:

    I do. It's easy with DIM.

    I have no idea how to do it, never had to !

    In DIM's Installed tab, put a checkmark on the item then start queue. That puts it in Ready To Install. In the Ready tab, click the arrow and select "delete  package"

  • Midnight_storiesMidnight_stories Posts: 4,112
    frogimus said:
    Midnight_stories said:
    frogimus said:

    I do. It's easy with DIM.

    I have no idea how to do it, never had to !

    In DIM's Installed tab, put a checkmark on the item then start queue. That puts it in Ready To Install. In the Ready tab, click the arrow and select "delete  package"

    Duff that's so easy !

    Thanks for the info cheers yes

  • TesseractSpaceTesseractSpace Posts: 1,582
    Midnight_stories said:

    Here's a question do people who get a refunds, uninstall the products or do they leave them there, if there is no easy way to unistall, and are they committing a crime if they leave them there ?

    I've always uninstalled them. DIM is usually good at catching files since I don't do as much rearranging as some. But really I call it good if I don't see anything in my content pane since hunting out little files left over after uninstall is not always easy and generally the uninstall is thorough.

  • Dream CutterDream Cutter Posts: 1,224
    edited February 2016
    Midnight_stories said:

    Here's a question do people who get a refunds, uninstall the products or do they leave them there, if there is no easy way to unistall, and are they committing a crime if they leave them there ?

    I can't offer legal advice however it is ethical and required to conform to the Terms of Use.  Its very easy to uninstall DAZ content with DIM.    You can uninstall most content via DIM bust by selecting the UNINSTALL if it is already installed.   Then delete the download package from your DIM download archive directory.  Double check your runtime directories by doing a search.  

    Many software vendors who offer refunds require proof of uninstall and media destruction.  DAZ 3D Store is s very considerate in this respect, so I recommend we do likewise and adhere to their terms.

    Post edited by Dream Cutter on
  • KeryaKerya Posts: 10,943

    I only got refunds for items I accidentally bought twice (no warning about items in bundles) - so I didn't uninstall them ...

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715
    Midnight_stories said:

    Here's a question do people who get a refunds, uninstall the products or do they leave them there, if there is no easy way to unistall, and are they committing a crime if they leave them there ?

    Yeh and I've sent in a ticket when it's still been in my download list after I've received the refund.

  • frogimusfrogimus Posts: 200
    nicstt said:
    Midnight_stories said:

    Here's a question do people who get a refunds, uninstall the products or do they leave them there, if there is no easy way to unistall, and are they committing a crime if they leave them there ?

    Yeh and I've sent in a ticket when it's still been in my download list after I've received the refund.

    Good to check that. I'd end up forgetting that I returned it months down the road.

  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996

    While waiting on earlier questions to be answered, here's another~

    This has been asked before but why not have products release as encrypted then after their New Release period is over (I think it's 1-3 months?) release then as unencrypted? 

    - Supposedly most sales happen in the first two weeks so you'll still get that (assuming people buy encrypted content)
    - The people who don't want DRM content can then buy a copy
    - If the pirate sites haven't released cracked versions of the files by then, they'll be months behind demand
    - You can even pretend it's a new and exciting second release anniversary and add more enticements to it or something, making every product twice a feature!

     

  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,574
    lx said:

    While waiting on earlier questions to be answered, here's another~

    This has been asked before but why not have products release as encrypted then after their New Release period is over (I think it's 1-3 months?) release then as unencrypted? 

    - Supposedly most sales happen in the first two weeks so you'll still get that (assuming people buy encrypted content)
    - The people who don't want DRM content can then buy a copy
    - If the pirate sites haven't released cracked versions of the files by then, they'll be months behind demand
    - You can even pretend it's a new and exciting second release anniversary and add more enticements to it or something, making every product twice a feature!

     

    The only answer I have seen for this type of suggestion was by a PA that mostly did scenes/props (these lose their relevance slower that stuff for figures) who remarked that he still got a lot of orders for his back catalogue stuff, including years after release. I personally think most of those sales are from people that would not have looked first for a free pirate version, but that is impossible to know for sure. For me this seems like a good compromise, I personally would have no issue waiting 3 months or so for the unencrypted version.

  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996
    Havos said:
    lx said:

    While waiting on earlier questions to be answered, here's another~

    This has been asked before but why not have products release as encrypted then after their New Release period is over (I think it's 1-3 months?) release then as unencrypted? 

    - Supposedly most sales happen in the first two weeks so you'll still get that (assuming people buy encrypted content)
    - The people who don't want DRM content can then buy a copy
    - If the pirate sites haven't released cracked versions of the files by then, they'll be months behind demand
    - You can even pretend it's a new and exciting second release anniversary and add more enticements to it or something, making every product twice a feature!

     

    The only answer I have seen for this type of suggestion was by a PA that mostly did scenes/props (these lose their relevance slower that stuff for figures) who remarked that he still got a lot of orders for his back catalogue stuff, including years after release. I personally think most of those sales are from people that would not have looked first for a free pirate version, but that is impossible to know for sure. For me this seems like a good compromise, I personally would have no issue waiting 3 months or so for the unencrypted version.

    Right, I remember that too; but also a page or two ago Richard said that scenes and props are really easy to convert out of encrypted mode, so those are also the ones that encryption does the least for. So I don't think it'd make much difference in the case of those either way.

  • argel1200argel1200 Posts: 760
    edited February 2016

     

    Midnight_stories said:

    Here's a question do people who get a refunds, uninstall the products or do they leave them there, if there is no easy way to unistall, and are they committing a crime if they leave them there ?

    I always uninstall them, often while filling the refund request out. Uninstllaing is easy in DIM (on the Installed tab check them then click on Start Queue). Once complete, on the "Ready to Install" tab check them again and then right click and there should be an option to delete the selected packages. It's very easy. There is also the oder::<number_from_the_order_url> filter that wil just show items from that order, which can be handy to reduce the number of packages to see. Anyone know if there is an equivalent for DC?

    Post edited by argel1200 on
  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,574
    lx said:
    Havos said:
    lx said:

    While waiting on earlier questions to be answered, here's another~

    This has been asked before but why not have products release as encrypted then after their New Release period is over (I think it's 1-3 months?) release then as unencrypted? 

    - Supposedly most sales happen in the first two weeks so you'll still get that (assuming people buy encrypted content)
    - The people who don't want DRM content can then buy a copy
    - If the pirate sites haven't released cracked versions of the files by then, they'll be months behind demand
    - You can even pretend it's a new and exciting second release anniversary and add more enticements to it or something, making every product twice a feature!

     

    The only answer I have seen for this type of suggestion was by a PA that mostly did scenes/props (these lose their relevance slower that stuff for figures) who remarked that he still got a lot of orders for his back catalogue stuff, including years after release. I personally think most of those sales are from people that would not have looked first for a free pirate version, but that is impossible to know for sure. For me this seems like a good compromise, I personally would have no issue waiting 3 months or so for the unencrypted version.

    Right, I remember that too; but also a page or two ago Richard said that scenes and props are really easy to convert out of encrypted mode, so those are also the ones that encryption does the least for. So I don't think it'd make much difference in the case of those either way.

    That is true, but I guess it would be a lot of work for a pack with a large number of props. The same "ease of pirating" problem exists for PA's that specialise in texture add on's or poses. Poses are very easy to export particularly with a script to do them all with one click, encryption does not protect them in the slightest.

  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996
    Havos said:
    lx said:
    Havos said:
    lx said:

    While waiting on earlier questions to be answered, here's another~

    This has been asked before but why not have products release as encrypted then after their New Release period is over (I think it's 1-3 months?) release then as unencrypted? 

    - Supposedly most sales happen in the first two weeks so you'll still get that (assuming people buy encrypted content)
    - The people who don't want DRM content can then buy a copy
    - If the pirate sites haven't released cracked versions of the files by then, they'll be months behind demand
    - You can even pretend it's a new and exciting second release anniversary and add more enticements to it or something, making every product twice a feature!

     

    The only answer I have seen for this type of suggestion was by a PA that mostly did scenes/props (these lose their relevance slower that stuff for figures) who remarked that he still got a lot of orders for his back catalogue stuff, including years after release. I personally think most of those sales are from people that would not have looked first for a free pirate version, but that is impossible to know for sure. For me this seems like a good compromise, I personally would have no issue waiting 3 months or so for the unencrypted version.

    Right, I remember that too; but also a page or two ago Richard said that scenes and props are really easy to convert out of encrypted mode, so those are also the ones that encryption does the least for. So I don't think it'd make much difference in the case of those either way.

    That is true, but I guess it would be a lot of work for a pack with a large number of props. The same "ease of pirating" problem exists for PA's that specialise in texture add on's or poses. Poses are very easy to export particularly with a script to do them all with one click, encryption does not protect them in the slightest.

    It's almost like the encryption is mostly a waste of time upsetting customers for no good reason :O

    I still think verifying cards on initial purchase would do a whole lot more to stop their fraud problems - since it actually targets that issue and only inconveniences us once.

  • argel1200argel1200 Posts: 760
    edited February 2016

    Regarding fraudualent CC, I have no problem waiting while mine is verified. It's annoying, but understandable, especailly if explained well. Both of the other sites do something like that. At least one may do it if you have not logged in and/or made a purchase in a very long time (presumably trying to catch hacked accounts?).

    Post edited by argel1200 on
  • frogimusfrogimus Posts: 200

    OK...what is really being protected by DRM? Textures, poses, and OBJ's can all be exported or are in a form that can't be encrypted.

  • argel1200argel1200 Posts: 760

    Something to keep in mind is that DAZ does not need to release a new version of DAZ Studio if they want to start limiting the number of machines we can register. That's all on the backend and they can update that at anytime. I don't think that has been brought up in a very long time.

  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996
    frogimus said:

    OK...what is really being protected by DRM? Textures, poses, and OBJ's can all be exported or are in a form that can't be encrypted.

    Original characters with different UVs (probably?) HD morph characters, hair, and clothing (this list may not be perfect.)

     

    Waiting for verification is annoying, sure - but if it's clearly explained it's understandable, and it only has to happen the first time a card is used (and I assume most of us have used the same payment method tens or hundreds of times at this store.) The way the other site did it bugged me because it almost felt like they were trying to slip it past me so I'd commit to buy before I realised. Explain things really clearly to your customers and they'll (mostly) spend less time being mad at you.

  • frogimusfrogimus Posts: 200
    lx said:
    frogimus said:

    OK...what is really being protected by DRM? Textures, poses, and OBJ's can all be exported or are in a form that can't be encrypted.

    Original characters with different UVs (probably?) HD morph characters, hair, and clothing (this list may not be perfect.)The characters might be a bust for a lot of people, but

    The characters might be a bust for most people, but anyone using dynamic clothing will likely run clothing through an OBJ export anyway just to weld the seams. 

  • PetercatPetercat Posts: 2,321

    "Daz_Jon's posts have put the focus away from the whole 'lost sales' angle."

    Okay, this doesn't make much sense.

    If the focus is on credit card fraud and not lost sales due to piracy, is the best response to institute DRM and leave the sales process unchanged? None of this is making sense!

    Daz, if credit card fraud is the main money loser, why aren't you addressing that directly?

    If you don't think that DRM will increase sales, why implement it? Do you think that it will increase sales?

    None of this is making any sense.

This discussion has been closed.