You've been heard. Response re: 4.9 and Encryption
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Right, people like different things. personally a 48" monitor displaying fullscreen at night lights up the room as if it were daytime, so I'm not such a fan. But if there was a poll for all forum users for say a month or so asking whether they wanted
a. Let me choose between Black or White
b. White forum
c. Black forum
d. Purple Rainbow forum
You can do a. while keeping everyone in both b. and c. happy. You can't do b. or c. without upsetting the other. the greys and the blues basically work with either colour too.
Sooo choice? For customers?
My suggestion as an alternative would be to have Connect be a plugin (or have the whole program be modular with plugins) but I can already see the answers being
a. Options would be complicated and we want things simple to attract more customers <here is an image of kittens meowing>.
b. You can already do that, just don't log into Connect.
I imagine answer b. would be given to your idea too.
Hello, Jon.
Firstly - thank you for keeping a level tone about your entire post. Not easy to do, I know. I don't envy you folks your positions at the moment.
Secondly - I am one of those buyers who has pretty much stopped buying anything that did not have a Manual Install option. However... before anyone jumps on it!! My reasons for that actually have NOTHING at all to do with the encryption. Personally, I understand logically where Daz is coming from on the encryption. Sometimes, something is better than nothing at all. I get it. I don't like encryption - way too much can go wrong - but I understand, from the business side of things, Daz's reasons for doing so, at least partially. I'm NOT fighting the encryption here.
Thanks - I just wanted to make that point clear.
Now. That's not the reason for my drop in purchasing. The reason is that I'm one of those 1990's/early 2000's dinosaur 3D artists, who started out in Poser 4, with the P4 male/female and came into her own around the time of V2/M2. This is relative, I promise, just bear with me please.
Back then, Daz distributed things via .exe files. This was horrible for organization because the .exe files decided where everything went, and there was not at the time, and STILL is not, anything even remotely "standardized" about what files went to what part of the program's installation folders, which made finding something horribly frustrating back on Poser 4 when we could NOT rearrange our libraries yet. ;) I remember at one time having at least SIX different variations "Daz," headings under my Runtime/Figures folder! And so many things lumped into "Daz Morphing Clothes" that the folder was impossible to use! LOL
When Poser 5 was released, introducing to us the ability to sub-categorize and set up actual, organized directory trees, I jumped on it with huge sighs of relief! Finally, I could move ALL of my content around, get it into nice, neat categories like Props/Environment/Outdoors/Trees/Predatron/ and Props/Environment/Household/Kids/ or Props/Special Effects/Grime/Marieah/... and I could FIND my content easily!!
Meanwhile, we were still getting .exe files distributed to us whenever we bought our content, with no real change in the haphazard way that products were (and often still are) set up inside of the libraries. So, I took to keeping a "dummy Runtime" folder on my computer, and would direct those installers to that dummy folder, and then I would manually, by hand, move all of the files out of the dummy folder and into my working Runtime. In so doing, things were organized and placed in a manner in which I could find them easily and quickly. I have my own system of categories and organization. It works for me beautifully, and has ever since Poser 5 was released.
That right there is the reason I have refused to purchase ANY Connect-only product, whether it's Encrypted Connect or NON-Encrypted Connect.
It has nothing to do with the Encryption. I require the continued ability to manage, manually arrange, and install my content in places of my choosing, so that I can FIND it. I understand why Daz implemented the "Smart Content" system, but guys... your Smart Content is the quickest way to leave me cursing and walking away from my hobby there is. For being "Smart Content" this old dinosaur sure as heck can't use it! I can't find anything in it, I can't locate where the bloody heck something went when it was installed. Daz has it's way of organizing, and with fifteen years of content, I have my way. The two ways do not work well when mashed together.
This is why, for me, any product that does not offer a Manual Install, no matter HOW badly I might want it or HOW much I might love it or HOW often it might get used... THIS, the organization thing is the reason why I have severely reduced my purchasing. You've lost multiple sales just from me, simply because of content that was offered with NO manual install option. The trenchcoat is a prime example, I loved the look of it. But the moment I got to the product page and did not see a Manual Install option, I closed the page out. I didn't even bother to look at the presentation promos. THAT is how seriously I take my ability to organize my own content the way I want to. I still USE my oldest content, stuff that dates back to the V2/M2 era, and in some cases, even my old Poser 4 male/female content still sees use!
Now. Here's the reason why I get into all of that above.
I am going to be updating my installation to DS 4.9 very soon here, because I need to reinstall a few things and it seems that I have not backed up their 4.8 versions. (Whoops!) Of course, the product library on site here has now pushed everything on to 4.9 only versions, and well, referring back to my being a dinosaur, I do not use DIM, and I have NEVER used DIM, so there's sure no DIM-fix to my retrieving these pieces of my install. That's on me. I'll update to 4.9 to get things rolling again.
So. I MIGHT be VERY interested in this "hotfix" - but it depends on whether or not that "hotfix" is going to enable me to install Connect and Encrypted Connect content the way I would install content from a normal zip file. If I want to place Luthbel's latest wonderful armor set under People/G3M/Clothing/Luthbel/M7 Amazing Anti-Pirate UberArmor/.... can I?
And I don't mean making "shortcuts," as these are not an acceptable substitute for me.
Will this hotfix address the issues that those of us old 1990's dinosaurs and fossils have in regards to maintaining control over our content libraries and where things get put? :)
If yes, then I will most definitely jump on that Beta/hotfix. Absolutely. I would even be willing to PAY for Connect products, if I can put them where I, myself, want to put them.
I can't stand Daz's own way of organizing things. Your way of organizing is exactly how and WHY I started doing my own organization! LOL But if the upcoming hotfix/Beta is going to address the need of us old ancient fossils to maintain control over where our Connect and Encrypted Connect content gets installed... then I will totally jump on it, and I absolutely can start purchasing Connect content without any misgivings once again.
So... will the upcoming Beta/hotfix address the need of some of us old fossils to use our Content Library only (NO smart content) and manually install products we bought, to places we want it to live?
Please let me know. Thanks. Because at least in my case, the answer to your question regarding interest on the hotfix/Beta depends solely upon whether or not I can continue to organize and install Connect content in the way that works for me.
Thanks in advance,
One old cranky wolfen dinosaur. ;)
I simply pointed the old exe to a new folder too and organized by hand. I prefer the zips because with extractnow I can unzip a whole bunch in a row without having to click each. It's a time saver. Yes, I am still organizing by hand ...
Me too, I use pretty much exactly the same manual system. It's worked for me since the dim (no, not DIM) and distant days when I was figuring out Poser5, and I know where everything is because I put it there.
(A fellow dinosaur)
Part of the reason it seems circular is that there really is nowhere for the discussion to go. As you've said, we don't get to know what's going on.
We don't know if Daz is just testing to see if the DRM is effective by whatever metric they're using to judge or if this is just being rolled out slowly so as to try to lull us into complacently accepting the DRM because it is already a decision set in stone.
I gave the Encrypted freebie a try. I got a good look at what I couldn't do with it, and I had it removed from my account because it just isn't worth having even free.
Thanks to trying to resolve issues that have been caused by trying to manage my library with Connect, I now have another multi-day install session to look forward to so I can get my library back to a fully usable state.
Can you accept that this may make me less than willing to trust how well the DRM will work in practice? Especially as the Public Build Beta I was directed to download has caused me to have repeated messages about how my system has changed and requires reauthorization in addition to the whole need to 'reinstall' all my content?
So far this whole system has been the biggest hassle I have ever had in nearly 15 years of dealing with DAZ and it feels like if I'm not being outright ignored then my concerns are being dismissed as beneath notice. I'm having to make plans to ask DAZ to remove a sizable number of products from my library just to make these reinstall sessions easier since I'm sure I'll likely have to do it again before the problems are fixed.
I get that you have to act like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread and that the next update will make it perfect, but please understand that from where I'm sitting, things are looking bleak.
(On the off topic, would love to work there and help make things better, but I don't think Daz could pay me enough to live in Salt Lake City.)
Forum coloring is a bit off topic here. However, since I'm still awake, here is what it boiled down to. Two color schemes is double the work when it comes to styling which we do every day. So, we want a couple things. A consistent color scheme for all parts of the site, the store, the forums, and the gallery. We have a real and measurable increase in the amount of time and labor it takes to make sure everything we do works for both color schemes. And we got from our analytic data that the white theme is what more people used (so what they were used to and expected) and a was either flat or better on other metrics we monitor. So, it performed better overall for the site, maintaining both was a cost for us that was noticeable, so we axed it. There was a mis-spoken response from a support person which conflated the new logo with the light theme (the logo was specifically designed the way it is so it works on both light and dark unlike the old Daz logo which didn't work well on dark at all in a colored version) which added confusion to it. But going to the white only site-wide coloring was a product of a data driven decision that was tested and verified that wasn't based upon any of the wild guesses that people have come up with.
It only really came up along the topic of choice (which may or may not be slowly shrinking) but if it was that much more work and people were switching to that one (I don't remember what the default colour was) then fair enough.
My market research comment a ways back wasn't a wild guess btw: it was from that logo quote which you said was misspoken (so I guess they were talking about the old one.) So either they said it wrong or I understood it wrong, whichever doesn't really matter.
Thanks for answering~
(Maybe having someone look in on the forums is a hassle, but I do appreciate it.)
Edited by user.
Reason: removed duplicate post
Done. Thank you for providing that service!
It would be great if a "Beta Newsletter subscription" would be a permanent option.
I have switched to downloading all products with DAZ connect only.
The downside of this is that I do not anymore open DIM after the latest release is installed unless I need to install a plugin.
This means indeed there is a high change I may miss Beta releases until I stumble upon the thread in the forum.
I agree, I only like reading black text on a white (or near white) background, and that is the case with the majority of websites out there. It is also how I read a book. I have no issues with a dark theme being available, but I personally would not use it.
< code idiot
Is there a way to add code to a model that causes it to self destruct if it is transmitted via a torrent?
I do know that torrents are transmitted in random chunks from various 'seeds' is there a way for the file to figure out it has been
tranmitted via torrent ? and render itself useless?
This is definitely 3 suggestions I can support, and if this was done would allay most, if not all, of my fears regarding the future.
Unfortunately DAZ_Jon has explained that these suggestions have been considered, and rejected, but for business reasons we can not be told why. That is understandable, every company has the right to keep info secret that they feel it is not in their interests to make public. However we as consumers make our choices based on the data available to us, and if we see no compelling reason to support encryption, or why the alternatives are unworkable, then obviously our choice about whether we do or do not support this (ie by buying encrypted content) will reflect that.
.
Much better worded than my reply, reflects my feelings exactly.
No, there is no way to do this, data arrives exactly as it was transmitted, and torrents (which do have legimate purposes) would be useless if this was not the case.
A possible solution to the piracy issue could be an inexpensive hardware dongle. Something as simple as a USB key that needs to be plugged in to allow any content to be installed. Once the content is installed the dongle is not needed. The data and flash routine needed to create the dongle could be securely stored on DAZ3D's servers along with other customer accessible data such as serial numbers and accessible to the customer as needed to replace lost or failed USB keys. This would tie an identifier to the content that would a) identify the person who uploaded their stuff to the torrent site in the first place and b) make it very annoyingly difficult to install the content anywhere else but on a system owned by the legitimate purchaser of the content.
Benefits to this would be:
A) that the users content is not itself encrypted but simply has an identifier that is matched to a identifier that should only be in the possession of the legitimate user.
b) the only time the matching process takes place is upon installation so that no computer has to have a constant connection to the Internet.
C) the content itself is not encrypted.
D) The content can be installed on any computer that is owned by the user. No install limits.
There are a couple of issues with this method. No solution is perfect after all.
1) if DAZ3D's servers get hacked and the key data is stolen, DAZ3D would have to reissue key codes and tie those keys into existing content libraries for all users going forward. This could mean that the user has to create a new key in order to reinstall any content and install future purchases.
2) If the user gets hacked, and their key data gets "out into the wild" the user would have to contact DAZ3D, get a new key issued and possibly reinstall their content library. This is kinda a worse case scenario though provided that the user takes reasonable care in securing their system from intrusion and storing their key in a secure place. However, this prevents the necessity of a user ever being locked out and losing access to the content they pay for. Even if DAZ3D goes out of business in the future , the user has always had the ability to have downloaded and securely stored the means to recreate their USB key.
How about the simple solution of reducing prices and having the Pro bundles contain the same amount of content they had prior to late 2014? That might be the best way to combat piracy without imposing something controversial on good customers.
What makes you think reducing prices would help? PC items get pirated. The old bundles were pirated. Free software and content get pirated (yes, really).
Considering that even free products get pirated, I doubt changing prices would reduce piracy.
Making prices cheaper certainly does not end piracy, but it might persuade more people to come and buy a legimate copy, since then they can use it commercially, get access to updates etc.
And for business reasons we can not be told why encryption/DRM (with the years of easily googleable evidence against it) wasn't considered one of the "just plain bad ideas" DAZ_Jon mentioned.
"I can't buy anything that won't be paying for the giant legal stick to beat me with later. And when worse comes, terrifyingly, I will have funded it."
- - - it's like some kind of cyber hangover, seperis
It's been said by many that not buying DAZ's impaired content (not even touching the impaired freebies) will send a clear message to DAZ that encryption/DRM isn't financially viable. I've wanted to support that view, having sunk many years and far too much money into this hobby to easily abandon it. But somehow there seemed to be something off about that (other than a decade's experience watching DAZ seemingly misinterpret and/or outright ignore its sales data).
The cyber hangover quote above is from the SOPA debates in 2012, but it's on-point here (and hopefully goes to DAZ_Jon's "move the conversation forward" request): buying anything from a company that impairs your ability to use any of what they're selling supports -- outright pays for -- thier ability to do that.
Those who want to pay for that? Your choice. I don't. And this is a hobby, one with not only non-encrypted/DRM'd but open-source options.
Of course everything can get pirated. I mentioned this as a means to help reduce (not stop) piracy. Not everything is a silver bullet, but other industries have benefited from lowering prices.
And stuff with DRM gets pirated. What makes you think DRM would help any better than appealing to moderate types to actually buy instead of steal?
Bigger companies than Daz have discovered, repeatedly, that encouraging customers works better and is cheaper than trying to block pirates.
Heck, it's been seen that DRM encourages piracy. You have the challenge aspect of daring the more talented theives to try and break the DRM. And then you have the simple FACT that once the DRM is broken the pirates have a superior version of the product to the store that sold it. Anyone who has been burned by DRM knows how tempting it is to turn to the pirates to get something not hobbled by DRM. I know I keep referring back to how Microsoft shafted Fable III PC owners, but the simple fact is that right now if I want the DLC I purchased, the only way to get it is from pirates. The only way to use it is with a crack.
Thanks to DAZ support asking me to check if problems I had were fixed by the beta, I now have to keep reauthorizing every time I test something, and in testing that one of my issues was fixed I lost the 'installed' status of my library again. I've been going through my product library and compiling a list of the items I don't want to install right now because with how many times I'm likely to be fighting my library it would be easier for me to take the permanent loss of those products than to keep having to skip them in a mass reinstall.
So at this point I'm livid with this mess, because it looks like Connect was pushed out the door in a severely unready state just to force this DRM scheme on us. And If DAZ can't get their content management together, I find it really hard to trust them to manage my right to use content I've licensed.
Really, at this point I'm fighting the urge to just have DAZ wipe my library and account because this situation has become so very discouraging. I can't even say that I think they don't want just that. For the people having objections and problems to just go away, since it seems so much like pulling teeth to get them to acknowledge that they've actually read anything we've said as opposed to glossing over it for tidbits they can give easy happy answers to.
edit: Over 100 items so far that I'm likely to have to give up permanently just to make these 'reinstalls' slightly less nightmarish and I'm still not even halfway through my product library.
yes, p11 has DRM, and you do need an online system to activate it, but that does not mean that it needs tp phone home after that. PP11 is on my offline render system, it has been activated offline throught the method as described by SM (using an online system) . So far no calling home done by it......
Also the DRM in Poser is on the software itself, not the content. There's nothing preventing a user from editing content or using it in another program.
Well said TesseractSpace.
Lets make this clear - the discussion is on the encryption of 3D render CONTENT, not the software application. DS, Poser Carrara, ZBrush, Maya, Max et al ALL have some sort of application level piracy protection. However 3D content has traditionally been fully open and published in formats that are even text editable (obj, ppx3, cr2, fbx. dae etc) so that the mesh parameters can be modified w/o any special software. Binary and compressed files are format options to save file space but not required.
Bought P11 the day it came out activated it but due to RL issues today was the third time I opened it and everything works fine no deactivation.
Also for all the DRM people P11 went up on pirate site within a couple days after release
pardon redundancy