Not real artists?
Luzfenix
Posts: 57
I was having a discussion the other day with someone and something they said really annoyed me.
People who use Daz and Poser are not real artists.
I'm sorry but what the Hell?
He claims it's because it's just premade everuthings and sliders.
The only thing premade I use is V4. I make my own textures. My own lights. My own clothes and hair. I export v4 and do everything in cinema 4d and vray. Morphs, lights, clothes, hair, everything. Textures are made in Photoshop.
So why am I not a real artist?
Even if you don't make the rest yourself and use premades or bought content, why are you not a real artist? You put everything together. You made the composition. You had the idea. You made it. You rendered it.
Apparently he is not the only person who thinks this. I forgot the name of a website. But this website do not accept art made in poser or daz.
Why do people think this?
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Comments
People tend to think this way because in other fields things are different. When you are a painter, for example, you make the canvas yourself. You make the brushes yourself from the hair of animals that you raised yourself. You create the paint yourself. You create the frames for the pictures yourself from the trees that you planted yourself. You never look at a model because that would be copying, so you only rely on your imagination to paint the picture. Nothing is "premade".
Oh wait! That's not true! ;)
@OP
Art is about expressing yourself; of giving ideas life from imagination to tangible medium that others can share. Tell you friend to get over themselves. Or maybe re-evaluate your friendship, if their intent was to offend or hurt you: which they seem to have done.
Your friend was right about those people that use nothing but point and click presets to do everything, they are not real artitst.
The idea of Daz, for those that don't at least try to really get into it, is buy and load premade content then give it some simple/glamor-girl pose, render it and say you made it. The people that does that last part neglect to mention it was in Daz. Now this isn't the big deal for criticism, the problem is that they didn't make the "model" themself which is what most people like me would have been impressed by: the quality of the handmade/sculpted model and render and etc, not their vision/composition/etc.
Art isn't about you expressing anything and I care not for any sort of debate on any philosphical thoughts about it (zero interest there)
When it comes to visual art and what is a "real" artist, here's an argument I had a few years ago: I said photography isn't art,the opposers to that claim said it takes more than just point-and-click to be a photographer and photography isn't easy, I agreed with them that maybe it's not easy but it's still not art, sketches/drawings are art, photographs are not; they dropped the argument by having me look at a page asking whether or not photography is art (I assume because it's "debated" meant to them that I lost :p).
Since then I had a slightly different view: photography isn't art but an artist can get a better picture (ie subject/composition/edits/etc). I assume those that argued with me "meant" filter/post-processing as a part of photography being art but I'll never know.
Daz users are not real artists but real artists can use Daz. You don't have to make models or textures or whatever but the amount of work you do has to be substantial to the end result; to say otherwise is to say that animators and level designers aren't artists; they both take assets made beforehand (often by others) and make something else that requires effort to look good, just like making the assets did..
IMO, because the Daz models are so well made, it's hard to justify anyone saying they "made" any characters using them without them only using a small part of them in the result (such as the head only) but to just use only the body as a starting block, you've got nothing to explain yourself over when you're making the rest from scratch; plenty of "real" artists do that already, doesn't matter whether or not they personally made the source-mesh.
When you leave Daz forum and go to other 3D modelling forums or community, you will find soon that, if you use Daz or even Poser, you will probably get looked down. That is because Daz materials are not considered to be your work in other communities.
Creating the mesh itself is what gets praises in other places. It is true to some extent that you are indeed just mixing & matching pre-made parts purchased at Daz stuido.
What get praised is the progress of -
1. Creating 3D meshes
2. UV mapping and then texturing it (Plus rigging if you require that)
3. And then spend time creating proper shaders plus light setups.
4. And then finally posing camera.
5. Compositing if needed.
At Daz, you get to skip all the important steps and just do the two steps, 4 and 5 - That is generally not acceptable in other 3D communities. Some of more advanced users will dig into step 3 but there aren't many.
So, in the end, what your "friend's friend" said is the norm. I am not saying he is correct but that's the current norm.
Having said that, I don't see any issues with Daz's business model itself. Everyone has to start somewhere and I started by using Daz materials. But I wasn't pleased with the idea of using pre-made models, - that wasn't mine-, to create CGs and claim it as my own. So, I made a progressive move to Blender and started creating my own things. My own things don't look as nice as Daz models but I can proclaim that they are mine. In a sense, that's pretty important.
But I don't call myself an artist. I call myself an amatuer hobby CGer.
A load of bricks isn't art either then or else every bricklayer would be famous.
http://www2.tate.org.uk/archivejourneys/historyhtml/people_public.htm
The famous pile of bricks, I couldn't see what it was doing in an art gallery either. Did you hear about the cleaner who tidied up and threw away some cigarette ends, empty coffe cups and assorted rubbish on a table because he didn't know it was an expensive art installation?
To go back to the original question, I don't know what art is so I don't claim to be an artist. I make pictures and I enjoy doing it. My opinion is if you enjoy what you are doing then don't bother about what other people call it.
Creating a mesh isn't art; it is a skill, it is then used to create art. So many meshes are the result of photo references, so they are copying. Plaguerism is a whole other discussion. :)
Many other skills, rigging, unwrapping, are definite skills; and assist the artistic process, but again aren't art, but some of the skills required; artists chose what tools and skill-sets to use when creating something.
Using Daz and Poser, and any other tool to create art: is art; it doesn't mean that the person using that/those tools is the main artist. The PAs are the main artist if all a user does is click some buttons, it doesn't stop what is produced from being art; it also doesn't mean that users don't learn from what they're doing and slowly become artists.
There are lots of skills required to make art; it is successfully combining them all to create something the creator and others call art, is what makes it art.
Like Edtion, I don't intend to get into a discussion about this.
So should I just ignore him and carry on.
The only thing I use that is not my own is Victoria4.
Like i said, I make my own morphs, clothes, hair, lights, etc all in cinema4d.
I just export the base model.
Half of the time v4 is all I need, as my renders are then made into a Vexel in photoshop.
Not EVERYTIME, just most of the time. Sometimes I'll be happy with a render and think,nah I like this as is.
And I won't vexel it.
I say just move on. It's just painfully slow to make everything on your own. I don't see anything wrong with borrowing some meshes that have licenses that allow to be exported or whatever. As long as you comply with whatever licenses, I don't see why not.
Okay, I just didn't understand it. it wasn't the first time I had heard this.
But when I heard it before I had never used Daz so I didn't bother with it
It is a form of elitism. To be completely honest, I don't entirely disagree with the elitists becuase they do have valid points. But I don't entirely agree, either. In their ideal world, I'd need to spend days, if not, weeks, to come up with the perfect shader under a certain light condition. I am not going to do that if there is a tutorial to guide me through. I don't want to reinvent the wheel if possible.
Besides, you aren't doing anything wrong as long as you are complying with licenses.
If you heard it on DA then its a very long standing argument that continues over and over again. I don't every see it ending.
Using Daz3D content for your art is no different then using premade brushes, canvases and paints for a painting. When you boil it all down, NO one makes the tools they use. For example, I built my latest car in Silo but I did not make Silo. So do I still count as an artist? Its just the ignorance of one group about the medium that another group uses.
Although job titles vary quite wildly in game studios, an environment artist generally takes models from the 3d team and creates a map, are they not artists? Are aphex twin, The chemical brothers, basement jaxx or the plethora of other producers out there not artists because they use loops, beats and samples? Re-inventing the wheel (or remodelling what is already modelled and available) only serves to slow the process in my opinion. I've run into people like this before, and they can't seem to draw the distinction between:
1: Look what i made in zbrush, isn't this awesome?
2: Look at this piece of art i made, isnt it awesome?
Even if you occupy the latter part of that spectrum, it doesn't make you any less of an artist. I understand that some folks get a bit salty because they might have spent a week in a modeller to get the same result as you, but they chose that path, nobody forced them to do that.
I suppose the one viable argument that could be made in this case, is that if you don't have full creative control over your piece, then it might not be a true reflection of the piece you were trying to create. However every model, texture, light set and shader you pick up here can be edited, thus fully under your control. It's on you how much you want to deviate from the tools and models provided, but if you reach the vision you set out to achieve, it's no less art in my eyes, nor the eyes of many others. Don't let people dictate the rules of this medium, it's nonsense. Trying to define art is like trying to define what constitutes a good person, there is no black and white, just a sea of grey.
It's just elitism BS, and it happens all over the broad art scene really. Some old school photographers look down their noses at people that take digital photos and use photoshop for example.
Many film directors are considered artists. Yet they made their film in a collaborative effort with others.
Photography can be art, especially in the hand of a master considering lighting, composition, lenses used, depth of field, the story being told or the mood being reflected, etc.
Hey, that's all akin to what we do in DAZ Studio! Try telling a famous director that he/she is not an artist (try telling their fans and critics). Try telling an art gallery that a photograph they are displaying is not art. They'll laugh you out of the gallery.
People who hold high and mighty opinions about what is considered art should be ignored.
Sure many of us use pre-made content. So does the average hobbyist painter down at the craft store. How about the photographer who didn't make that mountain he just took a stunning shot of? It takes an artist to make use of the content they're given. It takes an artist's vision to make it come to life. Concept, composition, lighting, finishing touches to bring it all together... it's so much more than just load asset and render. Taking that asset and making it tell a story is what makes us Studio/Poser users "artists".
Be proud of what you create, and don't let anyone bring you down.
All artists use props made by someone else. A statue, a table, chairs, clothes or a building as a backdrop. They didn't make these props anymore than a digital artist has. The art is in the arranging and the perspective used when incorporating them into the image whether that is digitally, with paint or a photograph. The image wouldn't be possible without the work of others.
Keeping track of bought assets you use in a render project can be difficult... esp. if you are often changing your decisions and swapping out various pieces from your runtime. Unless you are good at tracking your assets you end up with a render that if you share it esp. outside this community which is savy and aware of what is going on.... you are left with trying to be honest about the render in terms of what you used and not claim the artwork as 100% your own to someone who doesn't understand DAZ/Poser 3D. That is the part I don't like the percent of ownership.... not whether I am an artist or not... that I could care less about.
Photographs are no real artists, because they make use of pre--made things. ^^
It is not about using pre-built things, it is about using nothing but pre-built. Photography in the hands of someone that knows what they are doing is art. DAZ Studio is at heart virtual photography, when a person uses the tools well the result can be art. Images made by using nothing pre-built models, textures, poses and lighting can look amazing but little true user creativity went into the making of the piece so it IMO is not art.
Okay I'm going to use a culinary reference here only because I'm a Chef.
I don't grow the food or slaughter the cow to get the meat, but I cooked it to perfection, plated it on a nice plate, that I also didn't make, arrange it to make it look like food porn to the eye and smell that made your heart skip a beat and taste that made you fall in love. But I didn't grow the vegetables, or slaughter the beef, or design the plate that the food was placed on. But I'm still an artist because I created that meal, I plated that meal and I served that meal. So I am an artist, Why? because you enjoyed every bit of that meal, because of how it was presented to you in the beginning. If you think about it, it doesn't matter how you come about to the finial results, its the steps that you took to get there. So to me, it doesn't matter if you buy items from the store or make them your self.
If it come from you, it's your art, and no one should tell you any different. You take the time to make it, you take the time to think of how it's going to be set and rendered, you take the time to make sure it was perfect, hence the lighting, the textures, the items or props, and the moments it took to wait for it to finish.
So you are the artist that made it, you are the one the created it and presented it. So you are an Artist. Ignore those who say different and keep doing what you love. Don't let anyone take that from you.
Little story: Someone took my joy of created things for poser, told me I shouldn't be selling anything because I haven't been doing it as long as they have. I am self taught, learned everything on my own (took me six months), because way back when, no one was willing to help. It was a huge competition thing, it still might be. But I made amazing things and people wanted them, until this person was black balling me from others saying that I didn't have enough experience in modeling or texturing. So I stopped. But then I saw that they took my ideas for their own and started selling them. These were my ideas and they took them after they told me they weren't good enough to sell. So it became a huge thing that I stole the ides from them, because they had friends that backed them up and I was a newby to the whole poser world. So I quit doing anything for Poser or Daz Studio. I didn't like being called a thief since they were my ideas to begin with, I came up with them, I took the time to make it look amazing and I rendered it, but I couldn't prove it because of the so called friends of this person where very tight and things got deleted. So it forced me to stop, taking my joy and my passion, because of their jealously for what I could create, for the ideas that I could do and they couldn't. I wish I hadn't let me stop me, but they did.
People are jealous of what you can do and because they didn't think of it first. Don't let them take your joy or passion for what you can do. Just ignore them and keep doing what you love.
You are an artist, just like the huge amount of people that I've seen. Don't let anyone stop you or say you aren't.
Okay enough of my rant. thanks for reading. :)
x-mas
kid:
"you are not the real Santa!"
uncle:
"there is no real Santa"
Hmmm ...I get what you guys are saying, but ...now, this is just my opinion so , you know ...for what it's worth. I've been using Daz for a few years now, and make comics with it. I post them and sell them on Deviantart. I think some of my renderings are really good, however I don't know that I consider myself an artist. Maybe it's just a matter of semantics but I just think I'm really good with computers, and can use whatever is available to make good images. I don't know. I can see that film makers are artists, and they're not painting or sculpting. Musicians are artists when they compose. Certianly the people that make the figures and environments and clothes we make use of are artists. But am I an artist? The same way a great painter is an artist? I couldn't make comics or images without this software, but a painter can pick up a pencil and make a great picture.
I can definitely see where material artists are coming from when they say what we do isn't art. That being said, we enjoy doing what we do and make some spectacular images. Bottom line: who cares what they say? F*** 'em. I don't know if this is art:
http://areg5.deviantart.com/art/Scene-from-Recession-Iray-620951214
but I think it looks good.
The question, is not 'is it art?" Because it most certainly is art. So are a 3rd graders stick figures. But is it GOOD art? Is it GREAT art?
Ask any parent if their childs scribblings are art. They'll emphatically say yes.
Art is different to many people. But whenever you use your creativity to create something that did not exist before (even if ALL the elements and tools did), you are creating art.
Some people may consider it poor. Some may consider it fantastic. Some may consider it tasteful, some tasteless. Some may find it inspiring, some may find it repulsive. It's is STILL art.
The only real question is whether or not it is 'good' art. The quality and skill put into it. And that is very much a matter of perspective and opinion. To someone who has never made art using 3D software, they may look at a render and be completely blown away and say it's great! Someone who's been doing 3D rendering for years may look at it and point out all kinds of flaws, but still say it's good. Some might nit-pick all over it, and say it's poor.
The only real question is "Am I happy with what I have created?"
@areg5 , Just a note on the image you linked. It's very nicely done. However, the hands are twisted TOO far, and it looks unnatural. Try putting your own hands and arms in that position, and you'll see just how unnatural it is. They're both twisted about 90 degrees too far. But the rest of the image is very well composed. (and yes, it IS art.
)
Why thank you! Well, she's young and flexible but it does look unnatural.
I agree with hphoenix; doesn't matter how flexible, if the joints would physically not allow such a movement. It's a good scene, I'd have experimented with DoF, particularly on the reflection in the mirror. I like the way the light highlights her hip and elbow (that unfortunately draws attention to the weird pose); the bed in the background also draws attention more than it should, blurring with DoF would counter that.
Having said all that, I like it.
Ah.. this discussion.
I had a heated discussion once that digital art isn't real art. But when asked what is real art, he couldn't answer.
So I have learned do whatever makes you happy.