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It looks like you have calmed down a bit but I will still answer the above.
I have no examples of HD figures animated and rendered in Iray..period.
Reason: I have no hardware capable of doing such
and have no actual need for such neither personal or client based ATM.
These are MY personal/financial limitations and or needs and in no way is DAZ culpable for what I cannot or choose not to do or use.
I have set my own pace
They(Daz) are free to sell promote whatever serves their objectives as a commercial 3D content company.
It is no different from my lack of interest in, or Financial inability to keep buying every new Smart Phone that Samsung pushes out and promotes as "new&better" every quarter.
In a capitalist market economy there are rarely too many products
Just too little impulse control on the part of **Some**Consumers.
Hmmmm ........ seems like if the Iray stuff didn't sell, DAZ and the PA's would probably have gone broke by now. They all live off of income from the sales of the stuff to use in DS. I actually went to Octane Render before DAZ 3D introduced Iray, because I wanted to move forward in the same direction that industry was moving with PBR and nearing unbiased rendering (take a close look ar Pixar's Renderman - this is what all the latest improvements for the last 2-3 years are all about). True, you can get great results with ray-tracing and full GI using 3Delight, but with the features exposed via DS, it's at glacial speeds. But if your happy with 3Delight and Genesis 2, then you should keep using them. Just because I prefer Iray, doesn't mean you, or anyone else has to.
.I
I realize you are/were very frustrated, and probably needed to vent a bit. But I feel it is important that the notion of needing a $5,000 computer to use the new features In DS such as Iray and HD morphs be addressed in a rational manner. Unfortunately you see posts virtually on a daily basis about the killer machine someone has, or someone wants to build to use Iray. Keep in mind these are machines that will make Iray fly, but really aren't needed to enjoy using it. If your like me, and are happy with decent speed, and not having a machine to brag about, you can get a great computer to use all the new features, including HD morphs and Iray, for less than $1,000.
I just recently purchased an AMD based machine for another (paying) project that works quite well with DS and Iray. Total cost was around $800. It has a water cooled (Corsair H70) AMD 8350 (8 cores at 4.2Ghz), 32Gb of RAM, 1Tb HD, and an EVGA Ultra Quiet GTX 960 SC (Super Clocked) with 4Gb. Now, this is a computer that the Gear Heads here would scoff at, but the few quick tests I've done tell me it will be a great DS/Iray machine (I didn't get it for running DS/Iray - but it will get used for it). I got the system from a small builder with outstanding reviews on eBay (didn't have time to build it myself), did a couple upgrades myself (GPU and water cooler). It's been very solid, I had it running hard (processing photogrammetric data) non stop for about 4 weeks with no problems. It doesn't have the performance of the high-end stuff you see talked about in the forums all the time, but I can get beautiful renders out of Iray in reasonable times (most renders would be in the 10 min. to 4 hour range).
With all due respect I have to disagree., I've been Poser owner/user staring with version 2, except for P11 - sorry, but SM just didn't step up to the plate for me with P11, so now I'm more of an ex-Poser user (I apologize in advance to Poser users, but IMVHO, SM has gone from the position of being the software that you moved up to from DS, to the software that offers very little over DS, and in some cases offers less), IMHO Poser is now more like a Rat Rod than a Ford Shelby Mustang. With a 2016 Shelby Mustang you get the latest in performance auto technology including an engineered engine with maximized output, a fully tuned modern tech suspension, and a state of the art Brembo barking system. With Poser you get .....ummm .... the greatest new tech in Poser is the integration of Cycles, which is more like a PepBoys bolt on tubo charger on an old rebuilt Ford 289 in your pieced together Rat Rod. Now Rat Rods are great, some of them are fantastic, but a Shelby Mustang they aren't. Yes, you can get fast renders out of Poser (Firefly) if you want, that may actually be what you are referring to with your shelby statement. However, to my eye, those quick renders from Poser don't quite hit the same mark as good Iray renders. Of course, a quick look at the Cycles renders from Blender, you know Cycles is capable of the same type of render as Iray, and there are a handful of Poser artists that are producing great renders with Superfly (Poser Cycles). Unfortunately, the vast majority of the renders I've seen from Superfly IMHO simply don't make the grade. Then if we want to talk figures, SM blew it again! IMHO, there are no native Poser figures that come close to the Genesis line. So IMHO DS looks more like the Shelby Mustang than Poser does, but your mileage may vary.
I do understand the costs associated with adopting the new figures and new tech can be quite high, but to not move forward would be similar to what has happened with Poser, and why I seldom do anything with Poser anymore. DAZ 3D is in the the technology business. Like any tech business, to stop moving forward would be the first move to closing shop. Does it get old adopting and adapting to new technology all of the time? Most definitely YES (I've been in then IT industry for 30 years, it gets real old, but as soon as you stop, your legacy tech). Regardless of technology, major upgrades to complex systems, especially where the users can customize things, almost always breaks something that was working perfectly before the upgrade (like you are experiencing). Unfortunately, it's impossible for the developers to predict all of the odd configurations the users might have (whether an intentional deviation from the norm or accidental, stuff happens and it's always a struggle for the user to fix it). To use an old cliche, I feel your pain. The rapid pace of changing technology can be frustrating, and at times tiring as well. But as a company highly involved in delivering technology to their customers, for DAZ 3D to stop moving forward would mean that they would also stop existing.
HI please post some examples of how the bone based face rig of G3 creates expression not possible with G2
Hi Explain how getting G3 into motionbuilder is" easier"
than G2 based on this tutorial
http://www.flipbookmarket.com/blog/how-import-genesis-2-and-3-motionbuilder
Hi here is G3 in Iclone( not my work)
Explain how this is "Better"movement and "more expressive" than G1-G2 could be in Iclone
Thanks
...but it' is getting more and more difficult to do so as more new releases are coming out just with Iray shaders. When Iray was released, Daz provided the means to convert shaders from 3DL. Why can't we get a similar conversion from Iray to 3DL?
I still like the more illustrative, "painterly" quality I can get from 3DL for certain works as well as different graphic effects which can be achieved through various plugins. Iray is designed to provide "realistic" photographic quality and requires postwork in a programme like Photoshop to do what I can often create "in render" with 3DL.
As to needing that "5,000$ system", if you don't have a decent GPU (or pair) which has enough memory to hold both the geometry and textures of a scene file while rendering, you are stuck with much longer CPU render times (though granted, not quite as bad as Lux) or performing a lot of multi pass rendering and compositing.
Actually if I ever had the ,resources I might consider Octane since it has an actual working "hybrid" (for lack of a better term) mode that is fairly quick which doesn't demand you have the GPU memory resources of 1080, Titan-X, or (gasp) Quadro M6000 (recently upgraded to 24 GB).
There is no "regardless of customer needs." There is a large silent buying majority that absolutely is paying us to work with Genesis 3 and Iray. They're not on the forum talking about it, but they are spending their money, and that's the vote that matters when artists have rent to pay. People are buying my content all the way back to Generation 4, but that income is tiny compared to what I'm making on my new G3 items.
...for one, the elbows look all wrong. and get that "bent tube" effect on the inside.
...@ DustRider, have you run Octane on that 800$ system?
Also is that straight 8 cores or hyper threaded?
Why do you need someone to provide shader conversions to begin with?
When Blender intorudced their new engine, Cycles, they didn't give its users anything to convert Blender internal shaders to Cycles shaders. It came down to users to figure everything out.
Maybe, I am used to that and don't find it strange why Daz isn't providing shader conversions.
Wolf, that animation isn't using the G3 face rig, or were you trying to show that.
Hi, the oft repeated mantra is that "the Facial rig make the G3 figure more expressive"
I am requesting samples of animation clips of G3 male or female Speaking& making Expressive facial
changes that are demonstratably superior to what can be acheived with morphs by G2
Links please
and also some animated G3 walking clips that are not sexy runway Stuff.that demostrate how G3 "moves better"
Thanks
I hate to disagree, but I do not see improvements in the Genesis 3 products. I also find the new bones in the face of Genesis 3,makes a mess of expressions. When Genesis 3 bends there are all sorts of surface distortions that are just like Victoria 4, so no I don't see much improvements in the bending technology. Daz Connect is not an improvement, it is just DRM. Smart Content is a improvement, Daz Installer is an improvement, Iray is an improvement. I do purchase Genesis 3 male and female products because of the Iray textures but avoid your Daz Connect because it is not an improvement over DIM. I like DIM because it gives me the control over content that I need, and I'm willing to pay for that option. I'm not apposed to Daz Connect or it's cheap products becasue it is a benefit to those who can't afford the higher prices. Connect provides newer products at lower prices, but at a cost of control. I also like your Fast Grab consequently, I make alot of purchases from there as well. So just because it is good for the company does not make it good for the customer. Just my 2 cents
LOL. Hear hear! ;-)~
Wolf, just me fooling around with it, it seems like G3 can do a lot. Here are a couple screen grabs comparing Olympia G2 to a G3 character. I'm only showing a fraction of the settings for G3F. Maybe I'll find some animations or someone else can throw one up.
In my experience G3 is much better at "big" expressions without mesh creases, particularly as you start to use heavily morphed figures below are 2 attempts by yours truly to get a wide smile that doesn't look like the character has rigor mortis. You'll notice on G3 the smile is not insignificantly wider. that is because any wider on G2 and the mesh starts to break. If I turn off limits I can get G3s smile even wider without the mesh ever dying on me
I also find it much easier to tweak expressions for G3: Lets say I dial smile a but don't like where the cheek crease falls in relation to the corner of the mouth for G3 I select the nasolabial crease bone and move it to a more natural location. in G2, I'm out of luck. Even if there were morphs to move it down and in or out, it might still not work, Its entirely likely the smile morph moved the vertices around the cheeck crease in a way the other morph can;t anticipate or correct for (whereas since G3 is based on bone weights that add to 1 this will not happen)
The easier tweakability really helps in my brief dabblings in animation. In particular with G2 going from expression a to b since your using morphs by default you tend to end up with all the vertices going in a straight line which is unnatural. With G3 its much easier to tweak point c in the middle and since its bone based and bones rotate around an axis the vertices may not have been moving linearly anyway.
For reference here's the result of my animation expiriments
TLDR G3 has some major advantages in terms of tweakability and can stretch futher without the mesh breaking.
Thanks but You show me nothing
that indicates the face rig creates better expressions
for G3 I could have made that expression with morphs on Vicky3 or 4 to say nothing of the G2 female or male
Frankly So far The face rig seems like Daz marketing Hype ,ornamental "pooware" to convince people that G3 is "better"
BTW my request for locomotion animation samples of the nonsexy walks and other full body movements on G3 was merely rethorical..I already know there are none
I remain unconvinced
But thanks for the effort.
And now some silliness but it does speak to my point. 5 minutes of fiddling around.
I can touch the top of my lip to my nose (try it its fun!)
G3 can touch the top of her lips to her nose. (And no nesh creasing to be seen)
If anyone can dialspin G2 into doing this without the mesh going crazy...
With me it's the reverse. I got into Daz at the tail end of Genesis 2 right as the Genesis 3 figures just came out. So I never really used any Genesis (except in interactive tuts and the old tutorials scatterered across the net) and no V4 -- lots of the promos for that stuff looked like old Poser art to me and that's what had kept me away from Daz for as long as it did.
Then I started noticing promos that featured stuff made for V4 that looked fantastic, and after I discovered Renderosity and RuntimeDNA for items that I just couldn't find in the Daz store, seeing what V4 could actually look like with a bit of effort blew my mind! It was an amazing revelation, and the fact that much of the V4 store was already ridiculously discounted made it even better. My catalog of V4 items skyrocketed and hasn't stopped since.
Thanks everyone for the excellent examples and feedback. My apologies for being an attack dog earlier. No one here deserved that. Thanks for your honest feedback.
Well, I am a relatively new user. (I started last September so less than a year but not a super new newbie anymore). I have a huge library of v4 and m4 stuff. I also have a ton of genesis and gen 2 stuff. Am slowly aquiring gen 3 stuff. Started out using 3Delight and really didn't want to switch to Iray. I now use both and am leaning more and more toward Iray especially with all of the new tools coming out. but I will continue to buy and use older content because well, I can. and its cheap. And there are plenty of tools out there to convert that content to work in Iray. And to use older stuff on newer generations. And I didn't spend anywhere near $5000 on my computer and I bought before I knew about Daz so it was purchased with gaming in mind not rendering. I have no problem with most scenes. I thought I really liked 3delight (and for some types of scenes, I still do) but to be honest, its really hard to beat the realism that Iray brings compared to 3delight. The learning curve is a bit steep but thankfully the vendors are providing fabulous light sets and special effect sets etc so I don't HAVE to learn everything right away to do what I want to do. I am still going to learn it but at least I can still make things while I am learning that won't make people either run screaming or laugh hysterically (I hope lol).
I will say I do have issues with finding my content still and smart content absolutely does not work for me. I like my custom content categories and I really really really miss my blue bars from 4.8 that highlighted all of my new downloaded content. That worked perfectly for me and I prefer to organize things my way anway. Thankfully the glitch that killed my extensive custom content category when I switched to 4.9 seems to have been fixed in the more recent version. That one took me almost 6 weeks to re categorize (yes, I do have that much content)
G2F/Victoria 6 debuted in June 2013. Two years later (to the month) G3F/Victoria 7 debuted. Michael 7 debuted two years (to the month) after Michael 6. Thus, we can presume that a year or so from today, G4F/Victoria 8 will debut. I would like to see the time decreased between the release of female and male bases, but I have no illusions about this either. Iray does photorealism better than 3Delight; so, everyone who is seeking that is going to be pleased with the direction Daz is taking, and it is easier to get to painterly from photorealism than vice versa. Daz rules this little entry level 3D art game, and their (mostly) benevolent monopoly is serving the needs of their most financially vocal customer base.
It would be great if Dimension3D, Cayman Studios, and Zev0 were given the first copies of G4F/M available so we wouldn't have to wait so long for morph/texture compatibility next time, although I am not saying that Daz is responsible for the delay in utility availability.
There are a couple of issues raised each of which could be a thread all to themselves.
1. Updates to DazStudio
Years ago, back in the DS 1.0 and 2.0 days; DazStudio was being updated roughly every single day. Yep, every single day you had to download and re-install software and content and the like. Back then they had just integrated Bryce into DS via the Bridge and each and every update to DS broke both Bryce and DS for me. Nothing gets in between myself and my Bryce!!!! I myself started a thread (actually several threads in multiple Daz forums before the rules changed) saying that DS was updating too often with changes that meant nothing to most users. Many forum members agreed so they chimed in the threads. Back then the DAZ3D staff spent a lot more time in the forums. Daz Reps said at the time that DS was updating this way because that's what users wanted. I had to demonstrate to them that they were wrong; that updates are fine every few weeks or months, just not every single day, sometimes more than once per day. So while to some people the current update schedule seems fast, from my experience here, its much better than it used to be. Daz back then thought all the updating made DS appear fresh, cutting edge, and investment worthy. But to myself and many others, it just made DS and its developers seem desperate and not well coordinated. Daz eventually realized that you've got to have some amount of "in house" beta testing before releases, you cannot put all of that onto the user base because they get bogged down filing bug reports instead of learning and making art. So I think the current rate of progression is healthy and sustainable, though, not always timely for us individually.
2. Feedback from Daz3D Representatives
I am no advocate for the forums, but I DO feel that in the rare instance that we get feedback in the forums from an actual breathing Daz3D Representative, we shouldn't punish him/her by dissecting every single statement and taking offense. In my opinion, all this does is discourage them from participating in other user driven threads, which is bad news for all of the users. Often, they don't deliver the news we want to hear, or they may indicate underlying sales philosophies we personally don't agree with; but at least its still an answer, and one we can either accept or reject in our own minds. I think Daz Reps should be given a little wiggle room and understanding. They're trying to answer our questions using the least number of words possible. They don't have lawyers review their posts before they send them. They're only human after-all.
3. Figure "THIS" vs Figure "THAT"
Figures are modeled based on the available computer technology. As technology improves, so will the quality and usefulness of the models. Most of us don't have quantum computers yet, so we have to find tools that our systems can handle. More on that in a moment.
To a certain extent, one could agrue that there has never been a photo-realistic human released by Daz3d. None. Seriously. In some sense, if you're looking for flaws, you can surely find them. Example: Millennium Vicki 1 and Millennium Michael 1 were tube meshes that somewhat resembled human beings aside from the pantaloon shoulders. And simplistic and ugly by todays standards though they were, they still blew the Poser models available at the same time out of the water.
Eventually we got the Unimesh with V3 and M3 I think. Unimesh means that until V3, the separate body parts were fully separate models. The advent of Unimesh was HUGE!!! While V3 bent better than V2, it still leaves a lot to be desired compared to a real human. V4 bends better than V3, but surprise surprise, it still falls way short of true realism. Then we got Genesis and V5 and M5. Again, bending improved over generation 4, and again, it still doesnt come close to the real thing.
Then V6 came with better bends than V5, but still not even close to real life. Then we got V7 and while it bends even better still than V6, it still doesnt arrive at the doorstep of true realism.
Each time a new figure is conceived, it is done so with the purpose of fixing some theof issues found with the previous generation while TAKING ADVANTAGE OF NEW TECHNOLOGIES.
When Daz3d was first launched as a company, many people weren't as computer savvy as they are now, and God knows their machines couldn't do much. So even if Daz3d had better technologies at their disposal, the userbase was not likely in a position to adopt it.
It has taken years for computer power to reach the point of where it is now. But even with unbiased "this" and HD morphed "that," we've still got a looong way to go before people start looking at the Daz Galleries and thinking the renders posted are real photos.
In Conclusion
Is Genesis 3 really better than Genesis 2? Answer, probably so, but not so much that Genesis 2 becomes garbage. Is Genesis 2 better than original Genesis...again, probably so. But not to a degree that I'd never use Genesis again. Improvement is steady and incremental, and skipping a step here and there isnt the end of the world. But eventually, we all end up playing cath-up in one manner or other. Regardless of the figure, it's only going to be rarely that a render is produced that looks like anything other than just that...a render.
Persoanlly, I've been sticking with Genesis 1. I've hardly bought anything for Genesis 2 or Genesis 3. Partly because I felt that Genesis 1 was replaced by Genesis 2 too quickly, with not much gain. And Genesis 3 came out so fast it killed Genesis 2 content development entirely. Clearly, things can move quickly, but I donlt have to tag along. At least for a little while, I can pretend it's still 2012 and Genesis 1 myself into a stupor.
I think we all get frustrated with shifting sands aspects of the CG art thing. You are not alone. Every once in a while, we all need to vent and to test the waters to see if others think similiarly to ourselves. Sometimes we find others in agreement, but not always.
http://www.daz3d.com/the-pod-megabundle
And there's a really colorful and detailed dragon with lots of options in http://www.daz3d.com/the-oceanqueen-megabundle even if you don't use the M4 / V4 outfit.
Problems?
...well as I mentioned, they provided a set of basic shader conversions (including skin which is the trickiest tio work with) when they introduced Iray which are constantly being added to by vendors vendors more in the know. Some from of generic "Uber" script to go the other way shouldn't prove that difficult to provide for someone in development with the knowledge. It's like going back to the days when everything only had Poser shaders and you had to spend a tedious amount of time adjusting them.
Not all of us can afford a 650$ - 1,000$ GPU to render with Iray in video memory and CPU rendering can border on glacial, especially if you hae a slightly older system and older generation CPU.
As I also mentioned there are results that a PBR engine just cannot achieve that a biased raytrace one can.
I mean just a single generic 3DL Base "Uber" shader, we don't need all the individual material ones. Is that too much to ask?
That's a very level-headed and nice way to look at it. It's good to see this kind of discussion going on. Thanks for being understanding, Steve! :)
You have a choice - DS default shader or the Ubersurface shader, both come with DS.
...@Rashad. Excellent post.
Yeah I remember those days of the Daz "Update De jour". I was also using Bryce as well as Carrara and transferring figures over began to be more and more troublesome. I remember constructing scene subsets in Daz and sending them to Carrara with no trouble. Now when I try to do that it usually hangs up or crashes.
I have yet to update to 4.9 due to bug issues I read about and the fact that I have to rework all my Iray character skins (which I already spent a lot of time developing). While I am not terribly concerned with G3 at the time (until Skin Builder Pro3 comes out which will help get around the mapping change), I notice that a lot of props and clothing and hair are now going Iray only (which is hit or miss with other render engines). A number of us already expressed our concern about this (there are threads both here and on the Carrara forum) as we also use 3DL along with Bryce and Carrara as well.
Well I have a bit of a different view on this... I WANT Iray and I came here just about 2 years ago, so I have a crazy mix of everything but try and use G3 and iray only as of now. But I bought Queen of the Sea Dragon Bundle and a couple of other V4 items today. One for specialized hair and one for a couple of clothing accessories. I kitbash most outfits and update to iray shaders. Some of it is a bit fiddly but short of animation (g2 still best for now, tho i do very little) I love G3 and Iray and so do the folks that see my art and comment on the realism and lighting. I guess for me, DAZ is what I make of it.