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how edgy?
And slightly OT: Will Wheaton may have been the most annoying STTNG character of all time but it turns out he's the most awesome nerd ever.
Um, every peice of artwork I do, both for fun and for promos requires work. Even if the work was done a year ago it was and is still work. So it is working for free, regardless of your intent or how well meaning you may be.
Wonderland, if you wish to do a book of your own work then by all means do so but to everyone else, I highly advise against it. Your artwork is your artwork and no matter how good or bad it is in the eyes of others, you have poured your heart and soul into it and to just give it away for another to profit from is completely wrong and pointless. A worked is worth their wages. And exposure is NOT wages, its crap!
+1 Matty! Very well thought out and articulated.
Thing is, exposure and marketing IS critically valuable, particularly given the vast sea of content and creative folks who could really use work. Right now it takes almost no effort to distribute fiction and illustrations globally. The problem is reaching audience and building a career out of it.
But the other thing is, this takes actual shopping and targetting folks who will actually try to get commissions or work from creative talent. It's that second bit that most appeals to 'exposure' lack, and the entire set-up basically translates to one party making some small amount of money and a bunch of others getting jack.
Didn't we have this exact discussion about six months ago? The request was the same, and so were the responses. I don't recall the OP, but it wasn't a regular poster.
My advice then, and is now, to seek submissions from places like DA, where artists are already showcasing their work. Exposure to a wider audience -- especially one that would never visit a site with the name "deviant" in it -- never hurt anyone. The CG magazines are full of one-page examples from artists who were not paid for their submissions, so I'm not sure what all the hoopla is about. This sort of thing is quite common in the professional art world, CG or otherwise.
That said, I'd find a "book" about this sort of thing to be a yawn. There's tons of it already out there, published online and in cheaper periodicals. I'm not bashing the OP's project or intentions, but I don't think there is a big market for this. An all-CGI art gallery might be interesting, though, if it's done right. More and more "modern art" galleries and even museums are entertaining CG. In many of these put on by legitimate galleries, the chances of getting your work accepted are pretty slim, so the credit and recognition is well worth it. I know of several artists who have gotten commissions from these showings.
Wow, this was not the type of response I expected.... I've had people ask me to pay to advertise my art in their publications and this would be for free and a chance to possibly show in an LA gallery. I'm not sure where people got the impression that I was asking anyone to work for free. For the type of art I want to showcase, Deviant Art is not the right place, West Hollywood//Hollywood/LA art galleries are. My art has been in a few shows and I would like to curate a show. The book was a way to give people some name recognition and it looks good for gallery owners to see art published in a book, even if it is self published. I only have 5 pieces on canvas, not enough for my own show, and I can't afford to print much more right now (I've been giving all my money to Daz!) so I thought a group show would be great and Daz could even use it in their marketing. But if everyone just wants to stick to online galleries that mostly attract other artists rather than buyers, fine. I was talking about putting the books in goodie bags that they give to celebrities and others with money at LA events. If you get a celebrity to like and buy your art, you have it made. Just trying to move things to the next level... I guess I'll just do it on my own or try to find the right artists who see this as a huge opportunity...
I'm just a hobbyist and not really looking for any exposure or anything like that, but I do have some images that I've rendered that I quite like, and wouldn't mind sharing with anyone who would care to glance at them. I'll see about getting those to you.
The challenge that I am seeing is the vagueness of your description. Yes, you state what you plans and goals are, but there is no actual detail as to how you are accomplishing said goals. Which galleries? What publisher? What kind of distribution? cons? What events will have goodie bags where book is included. To be included in gallery event, what additional material is needed? more digital art or would said artwork need to be printed to canvas at artist's expense?
With finite plans and goals like these, I know you would find a lot less resistance. Good Luck.
Exactly which galleries are you planning on showing in? When will the showing or showings take place? As for the book, I'm not certain it's as simple as the OP states. Before anyone contributes any artwork, they should do some legal checking to be certain they aren't giving away their copyrights to the OP. They also should ask for a written contact signed and notarized that they retain all copyrights not only the original work but forbidding and derivatives of their work. This is not meant to be difficult, it is meant to protect the individual artists and their works.
I suppose I have not explained myself well enough... I live in LA and I go to a lot of art gallery openings and high end events where they give out goodie bags filled with various products for celebs or attendees to try and hopefully buy or recommend to their other celebrity or wealthy friends. This is a huge practice in LA. Products are included such as small electronics, beauty products, huge discounts for plastic surgery or other beauty enhancements, fashion items, etc... I was once asked to put my pinup art book in such a bag, but I could not afford to have that many copies printed. There are also many trendy stores like Kitson where celebs shop, and I may try to shop my own pinup book there, but it is a bit Comic-Con-ish rather than upscale arty. I'm attempting to create more upscale edgy art myself, the type I see in photo art shows... The type that is possible with Iray... I would like to prove that CG is an art worthy of galleries. As far as publishers, I know some art book publishers that I could hit up first, but mostly I was planning on just self publishing on Amazon. This way I could take money from sales to print books to put in goodie bags. For the book, the only thing required would be an 8x10 image at 300 dpi, a bio/artist statement, a photo if desired, and up to six links of whatever you want to promote. If I get the gallery gig, I would let the gallery choose which images from the book they think are most likely to sell. If the artist chooses to participate, they would need to send a gallery-ready framed print or wrapped canvas print to the gallery. The artist would be responsible for shipping and the return if the art was not sold. Galleries do take out a percentage, usually 50%, you would have to sign their contract. For pricing your art, I would suggest a minimum of $500, depending on size and framing, you can go much higher. Initially, selling or showing in galleries is not that lucrative, but it's about building an audience, recognition and perceived increased value. And in this case, proving that CG art IS ART! Hope that helps!
I have to strongly disagree with this, exposure is not crap. Exposure is how you go from making images that a handful of people see on your social media site to being able to do commissions, find work, and become a respected artist. Wonderland may not have had all of the specifics worked out, but her intentions seem good and I'm also surprised at the responses here.
I am good friends with one of the most popular artists on deviantArt. We make different kinds of art (she draws, I use 3D), but if she ever recommended me and showed off my work, I would probably get twenty times the number of visitors and views that I normally get. If I were capable of doing commissions or seeking possible work, the exposure I would get from her recommendation would be invaluable.
It's kinda funny how so many here talk about this being a hobby until there's a hint of possible money to be made, then everyone's time is suddenly worth $80 an hour. We all need to work our way up, and increasing your exposure is the most basic way to do it. I think Wonderland would need to work out exactly what is done with any profits from book sales, but having your art seen by those who wouldn't normally see it is never "crap".
Still haven't addressed the fact that you are effectively giving the copyright to your work to the OP. It is NOT yours anymore if you do this, and you cannot do anything with it.
ok. It looks to me like you are still really early in the planning phase of this project.
My suggestion is that you need to personally approach artists that have the look you are going for and sell them your idea and have them jump on board. Afterwhich you might be able to nail down some specific events. With some hard and fast dates, it would be far easier to send out a broadcast jump on board post without all the PAs throwing up their arms regarding exposure.
Many of us have been approached for spec work over and over. Some of us have accepted and, more often than not, had poor results. (please look at DarwinsMishap's story) We,in general, are going to be skeptical of unsolicted, vague, dateless offers of exposure because we see them over and over. I'm not saying that yours is going nowhere, you do have one self published book atm, but the 3d world is rife with people trying to make a quick buck using someone else's artwork. (not saying that's you)
I would love to see more about this project when you have moved further along in the process, I think gathering artwork/vendors is going to be the toughest sell at this point.
I'm guessing that the OP would only be asking for the rights to publish the image(s) in "this" book. With this type of arrangement the orriginal creator retains the copyright, and the publisher only gets the rights to use the image in the target publication. I have done this many times, and retained all rights to the images/illustrations.
I had initially said I wouldn't mind sending you some of my images, but now that you mention I will have to pay out of pocket expenses just to participate, I don't think I'm interested afterall. As I said, I'm only a hobbyist and not really looking or needing any kind of exposure. Good luck to you and your project.
Yes, exactly. I stated it very clearly earlier. Artists keep all copyrights and there is no spec work. This is work you've already created, sitting on your computer. I have had my art in magazines and on covers and still own the rights and am selling the art on my own site.
Alicia, I sent you a PM
Wow... interesting discussion. Obviously this is a very personal decision. I've only just begun my journey in digital art after suffering a job injury where my tendon was ripped from my elbow, followed by a heart attack. So, as a newbie, what do I know about this?
That said... My second job has been, traditional artist - I make small beaded sculptures and have for years. Back when beaded anything was a fad, Lark Books contacted me to say that they were putting together a coffee table book about beaded art. I was invited to submit slides - six images of my work. If my work was chosen, I would receive one complimentary book. Otherwise, my payment would be exposure.
Four of my pieces were accepted, the book was published and stocked in every bookstore across the US. I even found it in bead stores. I definitely got exposure. A couple of galleries contacted me that probably would not have. Did this exposure result in increased sales, no... it really didn't. But, sculpture is a different animal from two dimensional images which can be easily translated into commercial works.
Seeing images of your work published is definitely a thrill. I would just caution that to expect more - may be setting yourself up for disappointment. Maybe something you should factor in, when debating the pro's and con's of exposure versus payment. Do I regret my choice to participate? No, I still have the book. LOL
I don't see a problem, as long as there is a detailed "license to use" clause in the agreement and that copyright remains with the artist. Drafting that agreement looks like the hard part, it has to satisfy the artists who actually know something about intellectual property rights and meets the final publisher's requirements granting publishing rights, and would have to be drafted by a lawyer. You have given yourself a bit of a challenge Alicia. Good Luck.
While I don't disagree with your comment, I wonder, has Daz spoiled the market by giving away their software for free? Or is the market just fine for other software manufacturers?
purrkat: The problem creative folks have noticed and remarked on is that given how easy it is for various groups to get free material from up and coming artists eager to have exposure, and the fact that that exposure generally results in no actual secondary revenue, and the fact that doing so usually gives groups the ability to sell product, you have a system set up that makes it next to impossible for artists to actually ever get anywhere or make money.
Because, as Wheaton rather publically pointed out, even HIGHLY profitable groups find it way easier to get free stuff from creators. What incentive do they have to ever pay artists?
There is almost no viable art market precisely because people keep letting themselves be convinced exposure is the same as money.
So, if the conversation seems a bit weirdly heated, there's a reason. It's not just an esoteric discussion for some people, it's facing constant effective judgement that 'your talents and skills are worthless.'
http://thedevilspanties.com/archives/11354
Actually, these agreements are fairly simple. The agreements just specify that the creator/owner is giving the publisher the rights to use the image in the specific "book" for publication. Depending on the publisher, sometimes the agreement will also specify that the "owner" retains all rights to the image, and may have a clause where the owner attests to being the actual owner of image. The agreements I have signed vary in length from almost a half page to a page and a half.
If Alicia publishes the book herself, then she would have to "make" the agreement. If she uses a publisher, the publisher will provide the agreement.
Keep in mind that the proposed book is a work in progress, and no doubt some of the specifics haven't been addressed yet.
For the record, I have offered to share some of my work. Why? Simply stated, it would be nice to have my "art" in a book, and the possibility of maybe getting in a real Gallery is a big plus. Do I expect to have anything end up in the book or a real gallery? No. Do I expect to get any compensation or commissions if one of my images is selected for the book? No.
To me, this isn't much different than posting an image in one of my on-line galleries. Do I get any compensation for sharing my images? No. Do the owners of the Galleries make money off of my images? Possibly, since they are hosted at commercial sites, someone looking at the image may actually purchase something on the website.
IMHO sharing artwork for the book isn't much different than sharing artwork here, at Rendo, DA, etc. (except I will know how the artwork will be used in the book, at some online galleries the artwork may be used by the gallery owner for promotion/commercial purposes). Does sharing the artwork for this book make digital art less valuable? I highly doubt it, no more so than sharing artwork on line.
There will be a fair amount of work the OP will have to invest to publish the book, and trying to get galleries interested in the artwork will also be a lot of work if she goes through with her full plan. There is also a good chance that this book would give exposure to DAZ 3D and related sites that could increase sales for vendors (a lot of sales? probably not, but it would no doubt increase awareness and result in some new DS users). If the OP gets a CGI Gallery show as a result of this book, does that devalue CGI artwork? No, it will do just the opposite. Will the book devalue CGI artwork? If it's done well, very doubtful, it may also do the opposite. Does my sharing any images for this publication for free devalue CGI artwork - maybe in a theoretical sense, but IMHO not so much in a real sense.
As for the idea of doing work on spec, yes it does get old, and seldom pays off as you would hope, but sometimes the "end justifies the means". In this instance, that is the case for me. Having my artwork included in a book on CGI artwork would be fantastic. I've had numerous other images I created published in various technical/scientific publications and text books, but these are technical illustrations, and not the same for me as the images I create with DS and Carrara. I do a lot of high tech work in archaeology, and am continually asked to do work on spec or at a dramatically reduced price. It gets old, but that is the nature of the beast. Archaeology isn't a field with a lot of extra money floating around. So I am often faced with either doing the work free or really cheap, or knowing that the data I would have gathered may be never gathered/documented.
The OP has stated what her intentions are (the details are vague, but those will have to be cleared up before publication), And it's really up to the individual artists to decide if the value of having some artwork published in a book with full credits and references/links to your websites or galleries, without any monetary compensation, is worth it? (yes, there may be the possibility of getting a book for free if sales are good, or being in a CGI art show, but this shouldn't be considered as definite). For me it is, your mileage may vary.
Thanks DustRider and please remember, I am an artist too. I turn down spec work all the time. But this is not spec, it's something you've already created, unless you choose to create something new for fun or because you are inspired, like people creating art for contests with minimal prizes. But old work is fine. Ten year old work is fine if it stands up artistically. My main goal here is to convince the world and LA in particular, which has a huge influence through the media to most of the rest of the world, that CG art is not just for gaming or 3D movies. It's art and there is much more involved than photography, and it should be considered gallery worthy art. LA is very progressive and I live here so I thought I could make a dent. I go to a lot of gallery openings here and know some curators who could be very helpful. Also, if there was a book first, the book could be sold at the gallery. If it's money that's holding people back, I could possibly create a contract that states that after all expenses are recouped, the profit could be divided equally among the artists. If some miracle happens and the book is very successful, great! I was initially thinking it as a calling card for the galleries, so they could see how cool the art is and that it is ART, not a video game. I was hoping to even fool them into thinking it was photography or traditional art and then surprising them that it was all CGI & 3D! My art has already been in several galleries but I try not to reveal my methods when I don't have to because of prejudice against CGI. But it would be groundbreaking to do an all 3D generated show, so that is my goal. To legitimize CG art as an art. The book and gallery show are a means to an end that could help all 3D artists...
And the concept of getting the book in celebrity goodie bags is another way to spread the concept. Wouldn't it be cool if some celebrity saw the art in a book or gallery and started tweeting about it? Or ordering prints? It's more likely they'll check out a book in their goodie bag than go to Deviant Art which they probably haven't heard of... We live in a viral world and LA and Hollywood start a lot of the viruses LOL...
I agree with Snow Sultan.
To reverse things for a minute, I recently adapted a short screenplay into a 59 page graphic novel. I'll be publishing it through my own small publishing company and releasing it on Comixology. I did all the art on spec, but at the same time, I did not pay an advance to to writer. Then we're just splitting the back end. Have I taken advantage of the writer? Did the writer take advantage of me? We all gotta cut our teeth somewhere, somehow.
A lot of prominent comic creators have self-published in the beginning (Jeff Smith, Dave Sim, Brian Michael Bendis, Kevin Eastman/Peter Laird and loads of others) and had to spend boat loads of their money just to get their work distributed. They succeeded. Others have done the same and failed. The most prominent independent comic publishers, such as Image, Fantagraphics, Oni Press, Top Shelf, don't even pay page rates. Essentially every project published by these publishers is a spec project...publishers take a cut, creators split the rest. No advance, nothing until after sales happen. This may not be the case for some bigger name creators or properties like Todd McFarlane/Spawn, Kirkman/Walking Dead, Erik Larson/Savage Dragon, but the vast majority of titles from these publishers are spec submissions.
While I can't say that I'm interested in participating in the OP's project, artists that don't see the value in exposure are destined to remain unexposed.
Also...unless people are in the habit of rendering 2400 x 3000 images, I think most will be needing to create new works for this project.
The bigger problem is producing a gallery-quality canvass. Because I'm pretty sure you're going to need more than 2400x3000, you will probably have to render a MUCH bigger image, then get it printed (Deviantart sells large wrapped gallery prints for ~$130), have it shipped to you, have it then shipped to Wonderland, AND pay to have it returned if it doesn't sell.
2400 x 3000 will get you a printable 8 x 10, which is an acceptable size for a gallery, and if it's too small, people just won't buy it.. FedEx does a good job of printing for much less than Deviant Art. And surely canvas isn't a requirement?
I'm surprised at some of the copyright comments. I would have thought that I retain the rights to any image I have created unless I actually sign them or any part of them over to someone else via contract. I wouldn't have thought Wonderland could give anyone copy permissions that I had not agreed to. Anything done under false pretenses in that regard should be able to be challenged under the law. Liability should go to anyone who gives or takes rights they don't own. Then again the law tends to be a wild donkey.
Sorry I can't contribute anything wonderland. Most of my stuff that I would show is a bit toonish. I wouldn't want to if I was a professional artist but under the circumstances it's probably the only way I'd get any exposure apart from the galleries here. I know I miss heaps of what goes into the galleries simply because I can't browse them often enough.
If you can work something out that will be good for those contributing then good luck to you all.
I changed browsers and my avatar went from smiley to frowney. :(
Honestly, it wasn't that bad!