Will DAZ ever improve animating?
ladywolf1
Posts: 128
I don't think daz studio is THAT far to be honest, from achieving a good level for animations. Yes it has improved and yes you can do so much more now by exporting/importing/using bridges.
What DAZ truly lacks is IK full support / constraints like Blender does it. It's not THAT far, if DAZ had better IK controls then it would truly become good and properly usable. Yes you can use pins and stuff but that's nowhere near good as other softwares for animations.
Will it ever happen for DAZ to become a better animating software? Are there any chances? Is there a way to show DAZ / support them into making improvements for this?
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The only way for us animators is to keep asking. The more, the best so I guess we need to open a specific thread with our requests.
We need just a few more improvents and the trick is done. Not much, just a fully working timeline (fixing the kayframes copy-paste, the graph zoom-out and the scrubbing), some new tweener (achievable by just adding TBC presets) a better FK-IK system with proper pinning, render to movie without asking at each scene for the codec and more render engines (since they are going to kill 3Delight).
Over the years I managed to bend DAZ Studio into a great animation tool with various plugins, scripts and trick... We just need all these things to be integrated directly into DAZ Studio.
That's my cue to offer a link to my tiny gallery, where these questions were already old when I posted.
Hallelujah!
Disciple
I'm not a daz "veteran" but I've been using it for a while and I can defintely see the big improvements made in the past couple years - at least on "trying to make the software a more complete and overall useful software" not just for "buying and posing pre-made stuff".
That's why I was really wondeirng if perhaps they could finally take a deeper look into animating. Like you said, it's not that far, we don't need that much tbh to be perfectly workable with.
I can deal with all the current rendering engine, even with the horrible timeline if truly that's a nono... But what kills me entirely is the FK/IK system. The pinning is absolutely horrendous, blender is just so... natural... If I could pick one thing - and I would happily pay A LOT for it - is that
If you need a more precise pinning you can use the Active Pose, they are a bit slower (depending on the slider settings) but are a bit more reliable than the standard ones.
You can find it among the other tools in the top menu. Once activated, go to the Tools settings to find the various options.
Do not count on it, DS use part time IK, getting this into a full time IK system is nothing you do in an afternoon, and that is pretty much what would be required, with the part time IK everything has to be baked, you have no goals you can animate, and without that it will never be any good for animation, well if you are ok with baking everything I guess you could live with it, but it will require some kind of animation layers so you can modify baked animations without changing a gazillion of keyframes (and I guess AniMate will/is be dead in 2025, it was far from perfect but at least you had layers).
What do you mean? DS (now) has parentable IK targets, is that what you mean by animatable goals? There are also Reach cotnrols that can aniamte the IK influence. See http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/change_log_4_12_0_86#4_12_0_46
Even though I do not render animations, I seriously wish they would!
It seems to be a very highly requested feature.
To glibly answer the question: Daz HAS improved animating quite a bit recently. At the same time, DS is still quite poorly optimized for animation, and so far behind the curve of basically any other program one can use to animate that getting it to the level of a Maya, a Blender, or a Houdini would require that animation be the primary focus of Daz's development team. I'm an evangelist for Cascadeur, which is not only a great tool for animation but includes AI-assisted physics simulation for more realistic animation (and other fancy features that I haven't kept up with). You do have to pay for the program to export FBX, but that is more than worth it for what Cascadeur can do.
+1000
In my opinion, DS is still the best character creation tool around with unmatched value propositions.
But when you use things like Cascadeur, you simply cannot conclude that DS is a serious animation tool. That's an objective observation that shouldn't rile anyone up.
I have never interacted with someone who said differently that also had experienced with software that is undeniably an animation package like Blender, Maya, or God Forbid, Cascadeur or even Houdini since 19.5. For example, the discussions I skim over about IK in DS are surreal to me and I don't understand why anyone would put up with such a primitive system when they're trying to get animations done.
I continue to think that, if someone is serious about animation, they're better off pausing first to learn how to get their content out of DS. It's easier and easier all the time.
And, believe it or not, I am still working on Hitchens, which should meld the two worlds effectively.
Having named it Hitchens, you might kindly pardon any skepticism. ;)
@xyer0 Not sure I follow.
I thought you named it after Christopher Hitchens, the atheist polemicist. I beg your pardon.
I do animation completely in DAZ Studio everyday. Of course the IK (especially on later bases, like G8 and G9) are a nightmare (that's why I'm still using G1 which got way better IKs) but once you grasp how it woks, it's not that hard make animations. All in a single software without the need of jumping here and there to make things like lipsynch, walkcycles or just a char getting up from a chair.
As I can see DAZ Studio already got all it needs to compete with any other 3D software... It just need a few fixes and implemetations to complete the process.
@xyer0 I absolutely did, although that is not how I would characterize him. But the part I did not understand was how that implies anything about when I'm going to get the code out the door. Are you saying only God can help at this point? Yes, I would indeed have to pardon that mode of thinking :)
Diffeo/Auto rig pro with quick rig extension is all you need.
once you transfer your FACS & phonemes to blender shape keys ,via diffeo ,you have a Daz figure with a professional HIK control rig but can still accept facial animation from the many Daz sources such as Anilip3 or 32 bit mimic etc.
How are you creating lipsynch for the G1 figures?
The only 64 bit option
for lipsynch (such as Anilip3 or face mojo etc) are all third party
& made for G8-9 and will need updating for DS6 (2025) ,along with Animate 2
If you are using the default mimic in DS you are restricted to using not only an older version of DS but a 32 bit version that has limited RAM addressing
I understand all of that may be fine for you but to be fair many DS users would likely prefer to use G8-9 in a 64bit version of DS.
it seems We cross posted
So you are having to jump “here and there" for your lipsinc?
again which is fine for you ,but I imagine Alot of DS users have moved beyond G1 and 32 bit software many years ago
I have Autodesk Maya indie, Maxon C4DR25 perpetual, Blender and and older Reallusion Iclone7&CC3.
Even with my older Iclone 7& CC3
I am not having to use figure rigs from13 years ago (as you are with G1)
what is your actual experience with other non Daz software that forms your comparative opinion?
With the 32bit version of DAZ Studio that has the lipsynch tool integrated. Until now that's the best way I found to make good lipsynchs. It works with any figure but some times you have to find the MSC files that works with them. I compiled myself a few for older figure, it's not hard to create them.
I have both 64 and 32 bit versions installed, when I need to make a lipsynch, I simply start another session with the 32bit version, load G1 (or any other figure I need), select the audio file and input the text for a more precise result.
Once the lipsynch is done, I save it as Pose Preset selecting only the Visemes and the mouth movements and import that into the char I'm animating in the 64bit session.
Hitchens was a skeptic, so he is skeptical of your claims.
A reminder that religious discussions are against the ToS.
Thank you, @Gordig, for illuminating my ember of a thought. Although I wouldn't claim my own skepticism, merely that a program named "Hitchens" might invite skepticism.
I used Blender, Carrara, Anime Studio (Now MoHo, still using it to create 2D special effects), Poser, Iclone and Pencil.
) both 2D and 3D softwares.
I also tried Unreal, SFM and some other ones that I can't recall now (I'm old and they are about same age as me...
Until I reached DAZ Studio... It was simple, immediate, quick and almost complete of all I needed. Ready to use chars, easily morphable figures, flexible materials, good rigging (up to G1/G2, then it's pure nightmare), lipsynch. I bought a few plugins and looked for some scripts to fill the holes and I was ready to create my animations. Learning curve way easier than that train wreck of interface of Blender (still atrocious even with the last improvements) and a colossal versatility thanks to its scripting and plugin system. Lately it even got fluids, particles, animated textures, physical engines for soft and hard bodies, cloth simulations, text-to-mesh conversion, hair physics, strand based hair, wrapping systems, mesh sculpting and much more.
As I can see, DAZ Studio just need a few little fixes to be perfect. As you say I have to "jump here and there" for the lipsynch... But it's still way less complicated than using a third party piece of software where I have to import a char (or a special dummy) and after creating the lipsynch, export into a "dirty" format that I then need to clean up in DAZ Studio. I tried a few of those lipsynch softwares, I can tell the difference.
If we finally can get that Lipsynch integrated in the 64bit version (there are some plugins in the store for that, but I still think the integrated is the best one available), some fixes in the timeline (so we can finally copy-paste keyframes corectly and scrub it with a single click), some improvement in the Graph pane (it definitely needs a more zoom out or move those gigantic buttons on some other part of the pane), some more tweeners (that, as I said, thanks to the existing TBC system can be done with simple integrated presets), a good IK-FK system and a more robust pinning method, DAZ Studio is ready to run against anyone.
At the moment I can fix those lacks with a few plugins and some scripts, the most absolutely free. We just need to make the Devs listen to our requests.
Just some fixes and everyone will forget about Blender.
@wolf359
Wolf brings The Truth(tm), as usual. I'd add Animation Layers to the list of "must haves".
And I think we must also qualify our claims. I don't think anyone can say that one cannot animate in DS. Since 2018, I've seen exactly 2 examples of what I would consider high-quality animations done with it. So the correct thing to ask is not can you animate in DS, but rather should you animate in DAZ Studio.
And to answer that, I cite that I still have never heard a person who has used any of the apps we both cited say that DS is anything but deplorable at animation. It doesn't prove anyone's point to say "I animate in DAZ Studio all the time" because the easy counter is "Yes, but it would have been better and faster if you had used the modern tools of which other packages avail you." How are we still tolerating and even defending rigs with bad, feature poor, or unreliable IK in 2025? There is no way that the defenders have every used a real rig, is all I can think of... I would find another hobby before going back to life-before-ARP.
@xyer0 @Gordig
Ha ha, how did I miss that connotation?
Before, I wasn't sure if you knew Blender. Now I know. Some discussions are not worth the time it takes to have them.
If you think that a lipsync plugin and a couple tweaks to the timeline are all it would take to make DS competitive with other animation programs, I can only assume that you're either doing very rudimentary animations or keyframing everything by hand when you don't need to. I'm not aware of any way to do ragdoll physics, secondary motion, procedural animation etc. in DS, and particle, rigid-body and soft-body physics require separate plugins. Even if you could incorporate all of that, you're still using DS's laggy, poorly optimized interface to animate and render everything. I'm not claiming to be a high-level animator, but there's a reason I didn't start earnestly attempting to animate until DS was no longer my primary application.
Look at what Cascadeur just released.
That's why I keep asking for improvements. We need more stuff work the right way. If we don't ask for the things you just named along with the rest, the devs will simply think we don't need them. But we do need them!
Separate plugins, you say? Isn't the same with any other software? Blender doesn't need this or that plugin to be fully working and usable?
DAZ Studio is awesome for creating any kind of chars or creatures... How great it could become if it also could make better animations?
Anyway, to be honest, you can do ragdoll animations and secondary motion in DAZ Studio with a couple of plugins and scripts along with a bit of patience. What I'm asking to the devs to make it easier to do such things. Even with separate plugins.
DAZ Studio 2025 will bring a lot of improvements thanks to the new QT core, I guess it can be the chance to have those improvements.
@Dartanbeck
uses G8 and has built an entire course around animating that figure generation
Not a nightmare for him, apparently he is "having a blast"
Can you tell us why animating G8-9 a "nightmare" for you??
(other than the known DS IK/FK limitations you already acknowledged)
According to the DS 2025 Alpha thread
Daz mimic is "retired" ..Gone.
Do you have some NEW
info about a new 64 bit integrated lipsync feature begin developed for DS 2025?.
Check the DS2025 Alpha thread for the latest news about which third party plugins have been ported to DS 2025 thus far.
I suggest reading it thoroughly
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/9137806/#:~:text=Supported Operating Systems / Architectures * Windows:,through Rosetta emulation. Native support is pending.
As it stands now you seem to be suggesting that until some unknown future date, when DS 2025 gets everything you dream it having ,that DS users should ,( in the meantime) ,do as YOU have and revert back to a figure generation from over a decade ago (G1-2)
Never upgrade to a newer version of Daz studio
or a 5 series GPU (requiring DS 2025).
Time will tell how many aspiring DS animators will follow such advice?
Yes nearly forgot that vital addon
No. While you can buy/download plugins to improve certain things in other programs, DS is missing a whole lot of functionality that is standard in other programs. I've never used Alberto's plugins, and I'm sure they're fine for what they are, but DS is a flawed platform to add all those complicated calculations. I can open C4D or Houdini and have a rigid-body or soft-body simulation going in a couple clicks, and it will play in realtime in the viewport.
I've also never used Carrara, and Daz hasn't updated it in years, but even THAT has a lot of the core functionality that DS doesn't. My understanding is that you can work with earlier generations of Daz figures pretty seamlessly in Carrara.
It would be great if DS were made more fully-featured, sure, but I'd definitely rather Daz keep improving on the things that DS is actually good at than add a lot of functionality that, based on their track record, probably wouldn't work especially well. Your starting argument was that DS is already great for animating and just needs a few improvements to replace Blender, and I can't call that anything but delusional.
Limits and rigging. As soon as you reach certain values, even with limits disabled, it snaps to unwanted positions or rotates widly on undesired directions. For example, I can make G1 sit on a chair and get up from it while keeping his hand on a table in a moment, with just a few corrections on the shoulder once all is done. If I try making the same motion with G8, the shoulder, the arm and the forearm starts spinning like a drill, with the rotations values jumping up and down. Another example, I can make G1 walk on a direction, stop, turn around 180 and walk back to the starting point no problem. If I try the same with G8, as soon as the hips hits the 179.98 value, the char rotates every direction like possessed and do the moonwalk or slides sideways.
I often have to use G8 due to specific requests from clients and I can assure you that make any animation with that takes at least double the time than make them with G1 due to those wild behaviours.
I can't figure out why there's this difference in the IKs of the two models.
About the things on the Alpha, they are good news. I didn't follow it lately because I had a commission going and could't try the new releases. I'll try it later.
@ Gordig
What's delusional in asking the devs to improve the software? I see DAZ Studio still lacks of a lot of stuff, that's the whole point of asking for better tools and functionalities.
And even with all those lacks, I still think it's a great software for animations. Once you grasp how to use that, you can do a lot with it, even with its "limited capabilites".
You said you never used Alberto's plugins. Well, I can assure you that they are the perfect example of how DAZ Studio could improve and reach the next level.
But if we don't ask for this to happen and stagnate with the "just the thing we already have", the software can't improve.
And with this, I guess I said everything I needed to say. I love DAZ Studio, I love animating with it and I would love to see it improved.
was going to stay right out of this one
but you know how moths love flames
the improved FBX importer went a long way towards improving functionality for me
I can use other software and import the FBX results and save the pose in most cases
works better than BVH import
I've done quite a few iClone animation imports this way, not tried many other things so far