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You've been heard. Response re: 4.9 and Encryption

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  • TesseractSpaceTesseractSpace Posts: 1,582
    DAZ_Steve said:

    Status and cause of this thread being sunk:

    I wanted to let you all know how this thread got "Sunk" this morning (which is to say that it no longer pops to the top when it's updated).

    Overnight we applied some updates to the Forum software we run.  The update failed, and we ended up having to disable all users and threads for a few minutes to again apply the updates.  Unfortuantely, when this was done, and things got turned back on, any threads or users that were in the middle of being saved when we turned things back to normal states didn't get turned back to normal states.  This and a few other threads had several flags set on them (including the "sink" flag). 

    When I woke to this sh!t storm this morning I was upset as well, and wanting to know why someone would have sunk the thread and caused such a commotion.

    I know, it must seem all too convinient, and I cannot say that if I were in your shoes that I would take the explanation with anything buty a healthy dose of skepticism. 

    But, there it is.  That's what happened.  I know many of you won't believe the answer, but I did want to share it regardless.

    Nah, software trouble is generally a believable answer. 

  • Subtropic PixelSubtropic Pixel Posts: 2,388

     I believe Steve's explanation. Believe me, I've been involved in many, many, many "O'dark:30" changes over the course of my career. Luckily, only a few of them went (heh) "Full Potato"… 

  • argel1200argel1200 Posts: 760

    Thanks DAZ_Steve, and I do believe the answer. I hope that most of us that have been around long enough to be familiar with the various forum software used over the years would suspect technical issues first.

  • barbultbarbult Posts: 26,160

    Well that explains why I couldn't get the forums at all for a short time. What was the update supposed to enhance? Should we be looking for new features or fixes?

  • TesseractSpaceTesseractSpace Posts: 1,582

    I doubt any software more complicated than a 'hello world' has ever worked 100% as expected.  And I've seen botched 'hello world' attempts too...

  • DAZ_JonDAZ_Jon Posts: 582
    edited February 2016

    On the bright side, we think we have a fix in place for the sign out loop bug.

    Edit: among other things

    Post edited by DAZ_Jon on
  • TesseractSpaceTesseractSpace Posts: 1,582
    DAZ_Jon said:

    On the bright side, we think we have a fix in place for the sign out loop bug.

    That's some good news. I got stuck in that for nearly a minute yesterday as I move from desktop to tablet to phone depending on where I am at the time and one is usually going to get caught in that loop each time I move.

  • Robert FreiseRobert Freise Posts: 4,571

    Thanks for the heads up on the canoes would have liked to have them but will have to pass due to the encryption

  • hphoenixhphoenix Posts: 1,335

    Same here, but passing on the Canoes as well.  Still on 4.8, so can't use them anyway.  But even if I was on 4.9, I wouldn't get them....that might be interpreted as 'supporting' the DRM/Encryption system.....

     

     

  • hphoenixhphoenix Posts: 1,335
    DAZ_Steve said:

    Status and cause of this thread being sunk:

    I wanted to let you all know how this thread got "Sunk" this morning (which is to say that it no longer pops to the top when it's updated).

    Overnight we applied some updates to the Forum software we run.  The update failed, and we ended up having to disable all users and threads for a few minutes to again apply the updates.  Unfortuantely, when this was done, and things got turned back on, any threads or users that were in the middle of being saved when we turned things back to normal states didn't get turned back to normal states.  This and a few other threads had several flags set on them (including the "sink" flag). 

    When I woke to this sh!t storm this morning I was upset as well, and wanting to know why someone would have sunk the thread and caused such a commotion.

    I know, it must seem all too convinient, and I cannot say that if I were in your shoes that I would take the explanation with anything buty a healthy dose of skepticism. 

    But, there it is.  That's what happened.  I know many of you won't believe the answer, but I did want to share it regardless.

    Thanks, Steve.

     

    And thank you for sharing a little internal info about just what happened.  A shame you can't share more (about other things), but I do understand.  And knowing it was a failed update, and has now been corrected, shows you (and some others) are paying attention to the Forums.  It helps restore my confidence, at least a little.....

     

    I still don't agree with, like, or support DRM/Encryption or DAZ's choice to utilize it.....but I can still appreciate the other things you and the rest of DAZ do.

     

  • tl155180tl155180 Posts: 994
    DAZ_Steve said:

    Status and cause of this thread being sunk:

    I wanted to let you all know how this thread got "Sunk" this morning (which is to say that it no longer pops to the top when it's updated).

    Overnight we applied some updates to the Forum software we run.  The update failed, and we ended up having to disable all users and threads for a few minutes to again apply the updates.  Unfortuantely, when this was done, and things got turned back on, any threads or users that were in the middle of being saved when we turned things back to normal states didn't get turned back to normal states.  This and a few other threads had several flags set on them (including the "sink" flag). 

    When I woke to this sh!t storm this morning I was upset as well, and wanting to know why someone would have sunk the thread and caused such a commotion.

    I know, it must seem all too convinient, and I cannot say that if I were in your shoes that I would take the explanation with anything buty a healthy dose of skepticism. 

    But, there it is.  That's what happened.  I know many of you won't believe the answer, but I did want to share it regardless.

    I believe you Steve. Thanks for the explanation.

    It was, as you say, all too tempting to suspect foul play as it did appear to be very conveniently and specifically targeted indeed - especially coming so soon after Daz_Jon spoke about closing the thread if the discussion didn't move on. However, if a logical alternative explanation is offered then I'm happy to accept it. I apologise for casting aspersions upon you and your co-workers.

  • DaikatanaDaikatana Posts: 830

     

    Thank you for communicating the situation to us.  :)

    DAZ_Steve said:

    Status and cause of this thread being sunk:

    I wanted to let you all know how this thread got "Sunk" this morning (which is to say that it no longer pops to the top when it's updated).

    Overnight we applied some updates to the Forum software we run.  The update failed, and we ended up having to disable all users and threads for a few minutes to again apply the updates.  Unfortuantely, when this was done, and things got turned back on, any threads or users that were in the middle of being saved when we turned things back to normal states didn't get turned back to normal states.  This and a few other threads had several flags set on them (including the "sink" flag). 

    When I woke to this sh!t storm this morning I was upset as well, and wanting to know why someone would have sunk the thread and caused such a commotion.

    I know, it must seem all too convinient, and I cannot say that if I were in your shoes that I would take the explanation with anything buty a healthy dose of skepticism. 

    But, there it is.  That's what happened.  I know many of you won't believe the answer, but I did want to share it regardless.

     

  • SpottedKittySpottedKitty Posts: 7,232
    TesseractSpace said:
    DAZ_Steve said:
    But, there it is.  That's what happened.  I know many of you won't believe the answer, but I did want to share it regardless.

    Nah, software trouble is generally a believable answer. 

    Software trouble? With this forum software? Inconcievable!   

  • Gr00vusGr00vus Posts: 372

    If sellers want to stick to the current model of profiting from their work (selling multiple copies of finished work), I think creating value adds/rewards for legitimate paying cutomers would be much more effective than treating all paying customers as potential copyright infringers. This may seem like more work for the vendors, but considering the reources that were spent implementing DRM, I imagine the costs wouldn't be dissimlar. And in the long run the added revenue would oustrip the difference (and be actual revenue rather than chasing the phantom revenue of infringment incidences that would never be and will never be sales).

    There are many possibilities in this area in this market. You could run raffles in which legitimate paying customers are automatically entered to receive prizes, eg. winner gets a free copy of X, winner gets to name the next product, vendor will create a custom texture/texture set requested by the winner, winner gets to request a product to be developed, winner gets to choose a sales category, etc. You could automatically distribute value adds to paying customers - e.g. a physical print of a render using legitimately purchased product X, etc. Maybe paying customers over a certain level would receive a physical copy of their product library on an annual basis. You could reserve higher support teirs to paying customers. I could go on, but the important thing is there are many enticements that could be explored that would be much more effective in generating revnue than attempting to chase "sales lost to infringement" via DRM.

    For the PAs, I think someday the compensation model will change. I think new PAs will have to engage in the current model where they create products, release them and then charge a fee for distribution of copies. Eventually the PAs make a name for themselves and the quality of their work. At that point they can begin to engage in more kickstarter/patronage type compensation models, where they are paid up front to some extent prior to release. Then the vendor can fix their offering price, locking in a minimum revenue level for a given product. Once the thresshold is reacheched, they create and distribute the product to the up front patrons, and sell additional copies after release (at the same price as the initial patrons paid, or perhaps some higher price to encourage initial patronage). I know there are many digital games that are financed this way, I think it's a model that will work in this market as well. Maybe even better since, though not negligable, development costs for this market are much less than those for creating top quality digital games. There are many variations on this compensation model - ones where patrons don't pay the full amount up front, completing their payment on release, ones in which payment is refunded if the product is not released by a certain date, etc. It would also be a good opportunity for vendors to fine tune their products to the market, as there would be a much more direct feedback mechanism available than just putting stuff in a store and seeing if it sells well or not. Regardless of the exact model chosen, this type of model would be a much better arrangement between the PA and their end customers, giving the PAs the power to guarantee profit margins to their statisfaction and reducing the impact (real or imagined) of infringement on their ability to earn what they'd need/like. 

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715
    Gr00vus said:

    If sellers want to stick to the current model of profiting from their work (selling multiple copies of finished work), I think creating value adds/rewards for legitimate paying cutomers would be much more effective than treating all paying customers as potential copyright infringers. This may seem like more work for the vendors, but considering the reources that were spent implementing DRM, I imagine the costs wouldn't be dissimlar. And in the long run the added revenue would oustrip the difference (and be actual revenue rather than chasing the phantom revenue of infringment incidences that would never be and will never be sales).

    There are many possibilities in this area in this market. You could run raffles in which legitimate paying customers are automatically entered to receive prizes, eg. winner gets a free copy of X, winner gets to name the next product, vendor will create a custom texture/texture set requested by the winner, winner gets to request a product to be developed, winner gets to choose a sales category, etc. You could automatically distribute value adds to paying customers - e.g. a physical print of a render using legitimately purchased product X, etc. Maybe paying customers over a certain level would receive a physical copy of their product library on an annual basis. You could reserve higher support teirs to paying customers. I could go on, but the important thing is there are many enticements that could be explored that would be much more effective in generating revnue than attempting to chase "sales lost to infringement" via DRM.

    For the PAs, I think someday the compensation model will change. I think new PAs will have to engage in the current model where they create products, release them and then charge a fee for distribution of copies. Eventually the PAs make a name for themselves and the quality of their work. At that point they can begin to engage in more kickstarter/patronage type compensation models, where they are paid up front to some extent prior to release. Then the vendor can fix their offering price, locking in a minimum revenue level for a given product. Once the thresshold is reacheched, they create and distribute the product to the up front patrons, and sell additional copies after release (at the same price as the initial patrons paid, or perhaps some higher price to encourage initial patronage). I know there are many digital games that are financed this way, I think it's a model that will work in this market as well. Maybe even better since, though not negligable, development costs for this market are much less than those for creating top quality digital games. There are many variations on this compensation model - ones where patrons don't pay the full amount up front, completing their payment on release, ones in which payment is refunded if the product is not released by a certain date, etc. It would also be a good opportunity for vendors to fine tune their products to the market, as there would be a much more direct feedback mechanism available than just putting stuff in a store and seeing if it sells well or not. Regardless of the exact model chosen, this type of model would be a much better arrangement between the PA and their end customers, giving the PAs the power to guarantee profit margins to their statisfaction and reducing the impact (real or imagined) of infringement on their ability to earn what they'd need/like. 

    Yeh, I'd join a kickstarted for products; some great suggestions here.

  • PetercatPetercat Posts: 2,321
    Robert Freise said:

    Thanks for the heads up on the canoes would have liked to have them but will have to pass due to the encryption

    I would have liked them also, except in this case, it doesn't matter whether I'll accept encrypted content or not (hint: I won't) as I am one of those who cannot connect my work computer to the internet. A problem which, to the best of my knowledge, NO ONE at Daz has ever addressed.

    Even a "Gee, that's not going to change, sucks to be you" would be better than the current "We're ignoring you. Now go away".

  • McGyverMcGyver Posts: 7,085
    DAZ_Jon said:

    On the bright side, we think we have a fix in place for the sign out loop bug.

    Edit: among other things

    Can we pick the next bug? I hate it when the bugs are random and unexpected... Can we have something with fire next time? That would be cool.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,084

    I keep suggesting something like Kickstarter. I think it would be great for the higher profile vendors, particularly to see if there is any play for some odder concepts.

     

  • Peter FulfordPeter Fulford Posts: 1,325
    DAZ_Jon said:

    On the bright side, we think we have a fix in place for the sign out loop bug.

    Edit: among other things

     

    The other things including a fix for the major problem of the lack of a new version of Bryce, I'm sure.

    What, no? Really? No?

     

    Hey, now there's a moral dilemma for the second half of the second decade of the twenty-first century (or perhaps just this forum) - DAZ releases mind-blowing updates to Bryce, Carrara and Hexagon, and thoroughly DRMs the little b&stards. Wot to do? Free canoes can sink faster than this thread on a bad morning as far as I'm concerned, but Bryce? Arrggghhh!

    :splodyhead:

     

    PS -  I had to sign back in to make this valuable contribution... :rollseyes:

     

  • cdemeritcdemerit Posts: 505
    argel1200 said:

    Thanks DAZ_Steve, and I do believe the answer. I hope that most of us that have been around long enough to be familiar with the various forum software used over the years would suspect technical issues first.

    Actually, if anyone has been around for a bit, It should have been obvious. The forum and store have more regular "Senor Moments" than my 90 year old Grandmother...  Although I can see how people already wound up could see the other senario. 

  • cdemeritcdemerit Posts: 505
    TesseractSpace said:

    I doubt any software more complicated than a 'hello world' has ever worked 100% as expected.  And I've seen botched 'hello world' attempts too...

    Yup, I've botched a few of those in my life...

  • namffuaknamffuak Posts: 4,403
    Petercat said:
    Robert Freise said:

    Thanks for the heads up on the canoes would have liked to have them but will have to pass due to the encryption

    I would have liked them also, except in this case, it doesn't matter whether I'll accept encrypted content or not (hint: I won't) as I am one of those who cannot connect my work computer to the internet. A problem which, to the best of my knowledge, NO ONE at Daz has ever addressed.

    Even a "Gee, that's not going to change, sucks to be you" would be better than the current "We're ignoring you. Now go away".

    IIRC, somewhere in one of these threads, DAZ_Rawb said an off-line authentication was on the table and being looked at. My access is dial-up and my main system has no serial port accessable. I did manage to use my dial-up box as a router to get signed in and authenticated, but it wasn't fun. And I used to do networking and systems support for a living.

    There really needs to be an off-line authentication, possibly similar to what Pixlogic does wit Zbrush.

  • KickAir 8PKickAir 8P Posts: 1,865
    edited February 2016
    Peter Fulford said:
    DAZ_Jon said:

    On the bright side, we think we have a fix in place for the sign out loop bug.

    Edit: among other things

     

    The other things including a fix for the major problem of the lack of a new version of Bryce, I'm sure.

    What, no? Really? No?

     

    Hey, now there's a moral dilemma for the second half of the second decade of the twenty-first century (or perhaps just this forum) - DAZ releases mind-blowing updates to Bryce, Carrara and Hexagon, and thoroughly DRMs the little b&stards. Wot to do? Free canoes can sink faster than this thread on a bad morning as far as I'm concerned, but Bryce? Arrggghhh!

    :splodyhead:

     

    PS -  I had to sign back in to make this valuable contribution... :rollseyes:

    Not sure if this is on-point enough to stay up, but:  A couple years ago I bought Reality here (an unbiased render-thing using Lux, for anybody who doesn't know/remember) -- it was a bit buggy and had workflow-hampering data-handling issue, but back then it was the first of its kind for DAZ|Studio, and really spiffy despite the problems.  The guy who made it said there'd be bugfixes and much-wanted features in the next release, and when it finally arrived there were -- along with new DRM that required authorization from the vendor directly in addition to the serial# gotten from DAZ.  I'd had it for well beyond thirty days at that point -- I asked for a refund and got it.

    But DRM'd software's common -- impairing 3D content with encryption/DRM is new.  The best chance of stopping it is here and now.

    Post edited by KickAir 8P on
  • PetercatPetercat Posts: 2,321
    namffuak said:
    Petercat said:
    Robert Freise said:

    Thanks for the heads up on the canoes would have liked to have them but will have to pass due to the encryption

    I would have liked them also, except in this case, it doesn't matter whether I'll accept encrypted content or not (hint: I won't) as I am one of those who cannot connect my work computer to the internet. A problem which, to the best of my knowledge, NO ONE at Daz has ever addressed.

    Even a "Gee, that's not going to change, sucks to be you" would be better than the current "We're ignoring you. Now go away".

    IIRC, somewhere in one of these threads, DAZ_Rawb said an off-line authentication was on the table and being looked at. My access is dial-up and my main system has no serial port accessable. I did manage to use my dial-up box as a router to get signed in and authenticated, but it wasn't fun. And I used to do networking and systems support for a living.

    There really needs to be an off-line authentication, possibly similar to what Pixlogic does wit Zbrush.

    An off-line authentication would be nice, could we then do an off-line installation of encrypted content? Wouldn't accomplish much if there weren't also a way around Daz Connect.

  • DWGDWG Posts: 770

    So came by to check the shop, found 4 freebies, was feeling pretty happy about DAZ

    Went to download them, found two were DRMd and 10 times the hassle to install. This does not leave me feeling positive about my DAZ experience.

    It's bad enough when they're freebies, if it comes down to paying for being irritated, well there are other places to spend my money.

  • namffuaknamffuak Posts: 4,403
    Petercat said:
    namffuak said:
    Petercat said:
    Robert Freise said:

    Thanks for the heads up on the canoes would have liked to have them but will have to pass due to the encryption

    I would have liked them also, except in this case, it doesn't matter whether I'll accept encrypted content or not (hint: I won't) as I am one of those who cannot connect my work computer to the internet. A problem which, to the best of my knowledge, NO ONE at Daz has ever addressed.

    Even a "Gee, that's not going to change, sucks to be you" would be better than the current "We're ignoring you. Now go away".

    IIRC, somewhere in one of these threads, DAZ_Rawb said an off-line authentication was on the table and being looked at. My access is dial-up and my main system has no serial port accessable. I did manage to use my dial-up box as a router to get signed in and authenticated, but it wasn't fun. And I used to do networking and systems support for a living.

    There really needs to be an off-line authentication, possibly similar to what Pixlogic does wit Zbrush.

    An off-line authentication would be nice, could we then do an off-line installation of encrypted content? Wouldn't accomplish much if there weren't also a way around Daz Connect.

    I've already verified the off-line install of the encrypted content; that's why I spent the three hours getting configurations set up so I could authenticate the system. Download the .sea and .sep files from the product library, copy (not move) them to the data/cloud/install directory, click on the options for either Content Library or Smart Content tab and select 'Install Offline Products'. (You want to copy them, because the install process deletes them from the install directory, and the current DB rebuild process for connect-type data requires a re-install).

  • R GolbraithR Golbraith Posts: 45
    namffuak said:
    Petercat said:
     

    I've already verified the off-line install of the encrypted content; that's why I spent the three hours getting configurations set up so I could authenticate the system. Download the .sea and .sep files from the product library, copy (not move) them to the data/cloud/install directory, click on the options for either Content Library or Smart Content tab and select 'Install Offline Products'. (You want to copy them, because the install process deletes them from the install directory, and the current DB rebuild process for connect-type data requires a re-install).

    How did you verify the off-line install of the encrypted content?

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715
    DWG said:

    So came by to check the shop, found 4 freebies, was feeling pretty happy about DAZ

    Went to download them, found two were DRMd and 10 times the hassle to install. This does not leave me feeling positive about my DAZ experience.

    It's bad enough when they're freebies, if it comes down to paying for being irritated, well there are other places to spend my money.

    Yup folks might put up with something for free, but ask em to pay and be inconvenienced the results are often surprising to companies, if not to everyone else. :)

  • SorelSorel Posts: 1,412
    DWG said:

    So came by to check the shop, found 4 freebies, was feeling pretty happy about DAZ

    Went to download them, found two were DRMd and 10 times the hassle to install. This does not leave me feeling positive about my DAZ experience.

    It's bad enough when they're freebies, if it comes down to paying for being irritated, well there are other places to spend my money.

    may I ask how it was 10 times the hassle? Everything I have downloaded through connect was literally click to install. Didn't have to do anything else >_>

  • cherpenbeckcherpenbeck Posts: 1,416
    edited February 2016

    On the other side- Daz still has some interesting new non-encrypted, non DRM content. And  I'll buy that, just to show the vendors I appreciate their work (but not DRM).

    Just today bought 5 new releases. And I still stay with 4.8. Never touch a running system ...

    Post edited by cherpenbeck on
This discussion has been closed.